Simulation Discrepancies

[Covahz 0]

Hello, it is my first time posting to this site and I hope I have found the right place to post regarding Hunter simulations.

 

I have been running simulations with both Ask Mr. Robot and Simcraft, with very different results, specifically when it comes to Fury of the Eagle damage. All other damage done is generally very close from sim, to sim, to my experience with live, but according to simcraft my fury of the eagle should be doing nearly twice as much as it does in the ask mr robot sim and what my fury of the eagle tends to do on live. On live and in the ask mr robot sim Fury of the Eagle tends to be roughly 8-10% of my damage on a patchwerk style boss over 360 seconds. Simcraft has the same ability doing 17% of my damage consistently.

 

Due to the stacking nature of Mongoose Fury buff I fear that an incorrect damage output for Fury of the Eagle in the sim could lead to inaccurate stat scaling calculations, and I would very much appreciate it if someone with more knowledge on this subject could help shine some light on why I am getting such different numbers from two sims which are generally well regarded as being accurate.

 

 

Edit: I went ahead and cut the sims to the bare minimum in both Simcraft and Ask Mr Robot so that the entire sim is just using Fury of the Eagle with no other buffs or abilities used for 360 seconds, and Simcraft still shows Fury of the Eagle as being massively more powerful than is shown in Ask Mr Robot sims. I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, but I figured I would share. The Ask Mr Robot sim of only Fury of the Eagle is the same as my in game values.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Covahz

[Valks 2,375]

I'm not well versed enough in the various Sim differences to be able to give a proper answer unfortunately. Hopefully someone that does sim regularly could help out with this. @Orthios, any ideas?

[Orthios 271]

@Azortharion would be the better person to ping for this, not me.  I don't really deal with sims all to much, nor am I actively playing my Hunter in Legion right now (I've switched to Monk).

[Valks 2,375]

I had so much hope :( Ah well, as he says, hopefully Azor can explain this!

[Iridar 80]

Simulationcraft is a tool. It doesn't do anything on its own. To get proper results, you have to use it properly.

Your simulated character follows a rotation called Action Priority List. It constantly goes through the list and executes first available action with highest priority.

The discrepancy between simulations and real world can be explained by a number of things:

• outdated simcraft version. Make sure you use the latest release (first in the list).
• your gear didn't import properly. artifact traits do not import from battle.net armory at all, you have to use a special simcraft addon for that.

So make sure to download both those things and properly import your gear into simcraft.

Final possibility is that simcraft's default APL  is different from the one YOU use when you actually play your character. Meaning that your simcrafted character has a different rotation. 

I can help you put together a rotation for simcraft, but first make sure you have everything setup properly.

 

 

[BicV 0]

1 hour ago, Iridar said:

• your gear didn't import properly. artifact traits do not import from battle.net armory at all, you have to use a special simcraft addon for that.

So make sure to download both those things and properly import your gear into simcraft.

 

I'm going crazy, I know this is supposed to be an extremely simple task but I cant get the simulationcraft addon data to import into the simulationcraft client properly.

I got the profile export from typing /simc in game, and I've attempted to paste it in the text box at the bottom of the simcraft client inside the simulate tab. I click save and the client then reads that the log was saved along with all the data exported. However I cant get the profile to run the simulation from this log?

Am I just being a huge idiot and missing something blindingly obvious? How can I get this profile to simulate instead of my Bnet import?

Thanks for any advice :D

Edited September 13, 2016 by BicV

[Orthios 271]

20 minutes ago, BicV said:

 

I'm going crazy, I know this is supposed to be an extremely simple task but I cant get the simulationcraft addon data to import into the simulationcraft client properly.

I got the profile export from typing /simc in game, and I've attempted to paste it in the text box at the bottom of the simcraft client inside the simulate tab. I click save and the client then reads that the log was saved along with all the data exported. However I cant get the profile to run the simulation from this log?

Am I just being a huge idiot and missing something blindingly obvious? How can I get this profile to simulate instead of my Bnet import?

Thanks for any advice :D

When you try to simulate it, what is the error message that you get?  

[Iridar 80]

16 minutes ago, BicV said:

 

I'm going crazy, I know this is supposed to be an extremely simple task but I cant get the simulationcraft addon data to import into the simulationcraft client properly.

I got the profile export from typing /simc in game, and I've attempted to paste it in the text box at the bottom of the simcraft client inside the simulate tab. I click save and the client then reads that the log was saved along with all the data exported. However I cant get the profile to run the simulation from this log?

Am I just being a huge idiot and missing something blindingly obvious? How can I get this profile to simulate instead of my Bnet import?

Thanks for any advice :D

Your profile lacks an action priority list.

Simcraft's structure is supposed to look like this:

• information about the unit that's being simulated (name, talent choices, etc.)
• action priority list
• gear

I'm not sure if the order matters, though. As an example, here is my hunter's simcraft profile: http://pastebin.com/4NAu0g9z

So you need to combine what your simcraft addon gives you with a priority list. The default priority for SV looks like this: 

http://pastebin.com/WPtKEbDg

Keep in mind it might not utilize all talent choices and in general, it probably will not reflect YOUR rotation. 

In any case, try to sim this and later we can alter the priority.

There's nothing shameful in having troubles with complicated software such as Simcraft.

 

[BicV 0]

As you said Iridar the problem was that I wasnt combining the APL with the profile export. I just took the latest APL from which was generated automatically when I tried to import my character from bnet, and then replaced the character info/profile from bnet with the information from the addon. I got the simulation working properly now and all works great :D.

On a side note, I also just found your post on the custom sounds for hunters Iridar and am having fun playing around with that right now too haha. 

Thank you Orthios and Iridar both for replying so quickly!

 

[Covahz 0]

2 hours ago, Iridar said:

Simulationcraft is a tool. It doesn't do anything on its own. To get proper results, you have to use it properly.

Your simulated character follows a rotation called Action Priority List. It constantly goes through the list and executes first available action with highest priority.

The discrepancy between simulations and real world can be explained by a number of things:

• outdated simcraft version. Make sure you use the latest release (first in the list).
• your gear didn't import properly. artifact traits do not import from battle.net armory at all, you have to use a special simcraft addon for that.

So make sure to download both those things and properly import your gear into simcraft.

Final possibility is that simcraft's default APL  is different from the one YOU use when you actually play your character. Meaning that your simcrafted character has a different rotation. 

I can help you put together a rotation for simcraft, but first make sure you have everything setup properly.

 

 

 

I am fairly certain that I am using Simcraft properly, but I may be wrong as I am still fairly new to simming. Before posting I went to the nightly builds list and updated, so on that front I think I have done everything correctly.

 

When I import gear I simply use the simcraft addon, and paste the text above the APL. I imported an APL, however I don't think the APL is the problem since the damage discrepancy is also there when the APL is as simple as only using Fury of the Eagle, and the discrepancy seems to only be caused by the difference in Fury of the Eagle damage.

 

This is the APL + gearlist which I generally use:

hunter="Covahz"
level=110
race=human
region=us
server=rexxar
role=attack
professions=engineering=707/enchanting=640
talents=2312222
spec=survival
artifact=34:0:0:0:0:1068:1:1072:3:1073:3:1074:2:1075:3:1076:3:1080:1:1082:1:1084:1:1338:1

head=,id=134255,bonus_id=3397/1512/3337
neck=,id=133767,bonus_id=1727/1497/3336
shoulder=,id=137321,enchant_id=5882,bonus_id=1727/1492/1813
back=,id=134202,enchant_id=5432,bonus_id=3396/1502/3337
chest=,id=134390,bonus_id=1727/1512/3336
shirt=,id=53852
tabard=,id=51534
wrist=,id=139714,bonus_id=3385/3384
hands=,id=134209,bonus_id=1726/1808/1512/3337
waist=,id=135613,bonus_id=3428/1712/1482/3336
legs=,id=134344,bonus_id=3394/1512/3337
feet=,id=134386,bonus_id=1727/1502/1813
finger1=,id=134524,enchant_id=5426,bonus_id=1727/1492/1813
finger2=,id=134490,enchant_id=5426,bonus_id=1726/1497/3337
trinket1=,id=135692,bonus_id=3428/607/1477/3336
trinket2=,id=137537,bonus_id=1727/1492/1813
main_hand=,id=128808,bonus_id=728,relic_id=3397:1492:1675/1727:1502:3336/1727:1492:1813,gem_id=141270/136778/137544/0

# Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.

actions.precombat+=/summon_pet
# Snapshot raid buffed stats before combat begins and pre-potting is done.
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/harpoon

# Executed every time the actor is available.

actions=auto_attack
actions+=/arcane_torrent,if=focus.deficit>=30
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/steel_trap
actions+=/explosive_trap
actions+=/dragonsfire_grenade
actions+=/caltrops
actions+=/carve,cycle_targets=1,if=talent.serpent_sting.enabled&active_enemies>=3&(!dot.serpent_sting.ticking|dot.serpent_sting.remains<=gcd.max)
actions+=/raptor_strike,cycle_targets=1,if=talent.serpent_sting.enabled&active_enemies<=2&(!dot.serpent_sting.ticking|dot.serpent_sting.remains<=gcd.max)|talent.way_of_the_moknathal.enabled&(buff.moknathal_tactics.remains<gcd.max|buff.moknathal_tactics.down)
actions+=/aspect_of_the_eagle
actions+=/mongoose_bite,if=buff.aspect_of_the_eagle.up&(charges>=2|charges>=1&cooldown.mongoose_bite.remains<=2)|(buff.mongoose_fury.up|cooldown.fury_of_the_eagle.remains<5|charges=3)
actions+=/fury_of_the_eagle,if=buff.mongoose_fury.up&(buff.mongoose_fury.stack=6|action.mongoose_bite.charges=0&cooldown.snake_hunter.remains|buff.mongoose_fury.remains<=gcd.max*2)
actions+=/a_murder_of_crows
actions+=/lacerate,if=dot.lacerate.ticking&dot.lacerate.remains<=3|target.time_to_die>=5
actions+=/snake_hunter,if=action.mongoose_bite.charges<=1&buff.mongoose_fury.remains>gcd.max*4|action.mongoose_bite.charges=0&buff.aspect_of_the_eagle.up
actions+=/flanking_strike,if=talent.way_of_the_moknathal.enabled&(buff.moknathal_tactics.remains>=3)|!talent.way_of_the_moknathal.enabled
actions+=/butchery,if=spell_targets.butchery>=2
actions+=/carve,if=spell_targets.carve>=4
actions+=/spitting_cobra
actions+=/throwing_axes
actions+=/raptor_strike,if=!talent.throwing_axes.enabled&focus>75-cooldown.flanking_strike.remains*focus.regen

summon_pet=carrion_bird

 

And this is the APL when I am testing just Fury of the Eagle damage(with the same gear list):

 

# Executed every time the actor is available.

actions+=/fury_of_the_eagle

 

 

Sorry for the long paste, I couldn't get the gearlist + APL to fit in one screen so I couldn't just upload a screenshot.

 

I also tried having the gear be after the APL, but the sim was within 100 dps over 25,000 iterations, so I think it doesn't matter which order the gear info is listed.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Covahz

[Iridar 80]

Yes, I see Fury of the Eagle doing ~18% in simcraft as well, using your profile.

Simcraft does more damage probably because it's using Fury differently, in a more optimal way. Let's go over how simcraft uses it:

actions+=/fury_of_the_eagle,if=buff.mongoose_fury.up&(buff.mongoose_fury.stack=6|action.mongoose_bite.charges=0&cooldown.snake_hunter.remains|buff.mongoose_fury.remains<=gcd.max*2)

So it casts Fury of the Eagle only if Mongoose Fury buff is present and at least one of the following is true:

• Mongoose Fury has 6 stacks
• Mongoose Bite has no charges and Snake Hunter is on cooldown
• Mongoose Fury is about to fall off and has 2 GCDs remaining

If you start using Fury of the Eagle under the same conditions, you should see it doing more damage.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Iridar

[Covahz 0]

3 minutes ago, Iridar said:

Yes, I see Fury of the Eagle doing ~18% in simcraft as well, using your profile.

Simcraft does more damage probably because it's using Fury differently, in a more optimal way. Let's go over how simcraft uses it:

actions+=/fury_of_the_eagle,if=buff.mongoose_fury.up&(buff.mongoose_fury.stack=6|action.mongoose_bite.charges=0&cooldown.snake_hunter.remains|buff.mongoose_fury.remains<=gcd.max*2)

So it casts Fury of the Eagle only if Mongoose Fury buff is present and at least one of the following is true:

• Mongoose Fury has 6 stacks
• Mongoose Bite has no charges and Snake Hunter is on cooldown
• Mongoose Fury is about to fall off and has 2 GCDs remaining

If you start using Fury of the Eagle under the same conditions, you should see it doing more damage.

 

The problem I have with that statement is that I also tried simming nothing but using Fury of the Eagle on CD for 360 seconds, to lessen the possibility of user error. When I sim nothing but Fury of the Eagle I still have the massive damage discrepancy between what Simcraft shows and what Ask Mr Robot sim and my live experience show.

 

The APL for nothing but Fury of the Eagle I have used was: 

# Executed every time the actor is available.

 

actions+=/fury_of_the_eagle

 

Is it possible that Simcraft simply doesn't do accurate Fury of the Eagle damage? I spent a few hours trying to catch my Simcraft numbers before trying another sim (Ask Mr Robot) to see if that is where the problem may be and was instantly doing damage that was nearly identical to the sim. I am very open to the possibility that I mess up my rotation, but I don't think that would affect the sim of just Fury of the Eagle with no other actions still doing nearly twice the damage as my in game Fury with no other actions.

 

[Iridar 80]

9 minutes ago, Covahz said:

 

The problem I have with that statement is that I also tried simming nothing but using Fury of the Eagle on CD for 360 seconds, to lessen the possibility of user error. When I sim nothing but Fury of the Eagle I still have the massive damage discrepancy between what Simcraft shows and what Ask Mr Robot sim and my live experience show.

 

The APL for nothing but Fury of the Eagle I have used was: 

# Executed every time the actor is available.

 

actions+=/fury_of_the_eagle

 

Is it possible that Simcraft simply doesn't do accurate Fury of the Eagle damage? I spent a few hours trying to catch my Simcraft numbers before trying another sim (Ask Mr Robot) to see if that is where the problem may be and was instantly doing damage that was nearly identical to the sim. I am very open to the possibility that I mess up my rotation, but I don't think that would affect the sim of just Fury of the Eagle with no other actions still doing nearly twice the damage as my in game Fury with no other actions.

 

What is your in-game target? 

Also, have you cleared the "cooldowns" part of priority list as well?

It's theoretically possible simcraft guys missed something, but unlikely, given how big is the difference. it would be proper to ask them for that, though.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Iridar

[Covahz 0]

My target in game is the Raider's Target dummy, and the target in Simc is set to "Raid Boss".

 

If when you say cooldowns you mean damage modifying abilities like Aspect of the Eagle, then yes that is not on the APL. If you mean to somehow make it so Fury of the Eagle has no cd for the sim, I have no idea how that would be done so it is possible I did it on accident, which could lead to the difference in damage output. However, if Fury of the Eagle had no CD I'd think there would be more of a difference than there is.

 

I'd love to fix the sim if I somehow messed up the cooldowns, though, and would very much appreciate help with that.

 

 

[Iridar 80]

3 minutes ago, Covahz said:

My target in game is the Raider's Target dummy, and the target in Simc is set to "Raid Boss".

 

If when you say cooldowns you mean damage modifying abilities like Aspect of the Eagle, then yes that is not on the APL. If you mean to somehow make it so Fury of the Eagle has no cd for the sim, I have no idea how that would be done so it is possible I did it on accident, which could lead to the difference in damage output. However, if Fury of the Eagle had no CD I'd think there would be more of a difference than there is.

 

I'd love to fix the sim if I somehow messed up the cooldowns, though, and would very much appreciate help with that.

 

 

It seems you have set up everything right. I meant the Aspect not being in APL, yes.

I have simmed your priority with my gear, and also used Fury against a raid dummy in-game, and I had exactly the same experience as you.

SImcraft shows Fury's Damage per Execute at ~450k, but in game I get about ~200k. Something is clearly up.

EDIT: That issue has already been reported to simcraft devs, so we're clearly not the only ones experiencing this: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/issues/2819

Your concerns are justified, but I think we can expect a fix soon. Nice catch. I actually thought you were doing something wrong.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Iridar

[Covahz 0]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification. Edit: It would seem someone else reported this issue 2 days ago on the simc bug thread.

It would also be prudent to let  Azortharion  know, since this may affect the value of versatility for his guide, being that vers scales very well with the mongoose fury stack medchanic, which in turn affects Fury of the Eagle's damage, so if the Fury damage is higher on sim than it should be then that may change the stat priority in his guide. I am, clearly, not experienced enough to say for sure though so I just want to make sure he knows and can give an expert's opinion. I'm not sure if I tagged him correctly.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Covahz

[Valks 2,375]

Seems like he is aware and will look into it in the future to see if there is any serious issue there. Thanks guys.