5.4 Changes and Notes as of 7/10

[gahhda 95]

I don't really have much sympathy for people who only roll as a warlock to play one spec. It is a pure DPS class with three options...come on! However, we all play this game for different reasons and get our enjoyment from different places, so to each his own.

That is like trying to say that all ele shamans should have to be good at resto too because its the same gear...I see no reason people seem to hold pure dps classes up to a higher standard in switching between specs when its literally as night and day as switching from ele to resto.

[Akomagus 8]

KJC was a talent that made Warlocks unique just like Mages have Blink, Hunters Disengage, etc. The 30% snare was perfect in its design. On fights with heavy movement needed, especially Heroic Lei Shen, I couldn't imagine not being able to cast and move with everything else going on. Our Tier 6 talents are worthless now. I can't think of a single encounter to date where I needed to move for 15 seconds and then not again for 75 seconds. Affliction and Demonology, this is where you'd Life Tap or Fel Flame, but as Destruction...ugh, I don't even know.

And Gahhda, I, too, have been working on my Enhance Shaman...

Visiting mage here, welcome to my world. My warlock raiding friend says moving is cake. Now you know why we aren't op'd like your class!!

[Vestion 8]

I dot think its wise to say things like that over here, mage. Your a long way from home...

[Cruzan 71]

Comparing the utilization of multiple specs between a pure dps class vs. a hybrid class isn't exactly a fair match-up, but the switch from ele to enh would be the comparison for argument's sake, not resto. The switch in that case is fairly drastic though (without even mentioning the added gearing requirement) with the change from ranged to melee (melee-ish i guess) and I wouldn't expect a player to make that switch unless they were confident with it.

Switching from one ranged spec to another ranged spec that has an advantage over the other for a certain encounter makes sense and is the benefit we get of being a pure dps class, not the burden imo. I stopped raiding as Ret simply because of how stagnant and boring that playstyle was to me with no other option available for DPSing. To some of my guildies it's the most fun they ever have playing wow, raiding as ret. So like I said, to each his own. I get bored with a spec after a few weeks to a month so I switch as often as possible to keep things interesting and the idea that different encounters be tailored to different playstyles plays right up my alley. If you want to play one spec from now until the end of the world...of warcraft (south park ftw.) more power to ya.

All this being said I don't want to sound like a white knight for KJC nerfs. I think there is a better solution. I'm on board with revamping our lvl 90 talent tier though. The idea of trying to get warlocks to choose a talent other than KJC by nerfing it like that doesn't solve the problem. It makes all the locks end up playing Demo to compensate which is a worse trade-off.

Pre-nerf: All locks take KJC, but all three specs are represented fairly evenly throughout a tier.

Post-nerf: All locks still probably take the post-nerf KJC, but only Demo is represented throughout a tier except for niche, patchwerk style fights.

Of those two, the first seems to me like the better place to be from a design standpoint. Still not ideal, but that's due to the underwhelming alternatives in that lv 90 tier.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Cruzan

[Altar 0]

When he buffs a paladin ;

Paladin: Oh thanks marry me!

When he buffs a warlock;

Warlock: We are so overpowered now.

Generally in battle.net ptr notes, i see that 10000 paladin 10000 warrior etc... are writing comments. And it is so hard to find a warlock comment in there. That is interesting.

Everyone loves to play a class who is getting nerf over and over again ?

In cataclysm he nerfed us over and over and over again, and in mop after 2 2.5 months buff.

It is so hard to believe that buffs, because i am absolutely sure that, if we get good buff it is only for 1-1.5 months. After that he will nerf us again.

What is making me so angry is, non pure damage classes are stronger than us. This is stupid...

Our gear is stupid too, we are not like fire mage damn it, everything is crit...

[Vaelyn 6]

Warlocks are still one of the most powerful DPS classes in the game (perhaps the most powerful) and this change to KJC won't really change that.

The only problem I see is that Destruction is going from somewhat usable in some situations to completely useless for PvE, which sucks.

I've been playing warlock for 8 years now in Heroic PvE content and there's not a single tier I can remember where warlocks were truly underpowered because of nerfs. In fact, warlocks have always been one of the classes that scale best with gear, making them stronger every tier and that's why they constantly nerf us, but it's only to compensate for increasing power that comes with more stats.

If this change to KJC makes it live, all I can say is "o well it was fun while it lasted". But I really don't see how Blizzard didn't realise before they implemented it in its current form that it would be overpowered compared to other ranged casters not being able to move while casting at all (shadow priests, boomkins, mages to some extend).

[gahhda 95]

Visiting mage here, welcome to my world. My warlock raiding friend says moving is cake. Now you know why we aren't op'd like your class!!

Except for the fact that both fire and arcane beat warlocks on almost all non-aoe fights?...lol.

[Omaric 246]

Nom nom, troll bait tasty!

[Watermasta 7]

Archimonde's Vengeance: causes your target to suffer 100% of all the damage you take for 10 seconds. It has a 2-minute cooldown. When the ability is off cooldown, enemies who attack you suffer 10% of all the damage they deal to you.

Kil'jaeden's Cunning: allows you to cast and channel while moving, but each cast reduces your movement speed by 10% for 6 seconds (stacking up to 2 times) Grants an increase of 20% haste (afflic), 20% mastery (demo), 20% crit (destro) for your next 2 spells. It has a 3-minute cooldown.

Mannoroth's Fury increases the damage of your AoE spells by 500% for 15 seconds. This has a 3 -minute cooldown. When the ability is off cooldown, your AoE damage is increased by 25%.

How do you like my revisions?

[Omaric 246]

Archimonde's Vengeance: causes your target to suffer 100% of all the damage you take for 10 seconds. It has a 2-minute cooldown. When the ability is off cooldown, enemies who attack you suffer 10% of all the damage they deal to you.

Too OP in PvP.

Kil'jaeden's Cunning: allows you to cast and channel while moving, but each cast reduces your movement speed by 10% for 6 seconds (stacking up to 2 times) Grants an increase of 20% haste (afflic), 20% mastery (demo), 20% crit (destro) for your next 2 spells. It has a 3-minute cooldown.

Are you saying the passive movement casting is intact and the CD is the buff portion only? Otherwise, 2 spells isn't enough to warrant a 3-minute CD. Assuming the passive movement casting is *not* intact, then how long does it last? You can move while casting your next 2 spells? Meh.

Mannoroth's Fury increases the damage of your AoE spells by 500% for 15 seconds. This has a 3 -minute cooldown. When the ability is off cooldown, your AoE damage is increased by 25%.

Seems a bit OP.

[Watermasta 7]

Too OP in PvP.

Fine. Make it 50%. I feel like it needs more ommph to make it truely feel like a defensive CD.

Are you saying the passive movement casting is intact and the CD is the buff portion only? Otherwise, 2 spells isn't enough to warrant a 3-minute CD. Assuming the passive movement casting is *not* intact, then how long does it last? You can move while casting your next 2 spells? Meh.

Yes the Cast-while-moving would be passive. The buff portion would be the only part with a cooldown. Change it to 2-min. 90 secs. /shrug

Seems a bit OP.

I always felt like Man's fury was a bit boring with it's affect. If they are going to add a CD to it then it should do something significant. You can tweak the 500% to whatever number would be more logical.

[Zagam 1,982]

100% reflect on AV? Is this before or after mitigation? If it's before, pardon me while I kiss the sky. By kiss the sky, I mean pop Dark Bargain and eat an entire Heroic Lei Shen AC/DC (Thunderstruck) back to the boss hyperinflating my DPS. AC/DC only does like 1.8M damage in heroic mode. Oh, let me pop Dark Bargain and eat Ionization...NOM NOM damage!

Kidding aside, having a mechanic like this influences Warlocks to stand in bad shit to boost damage. This is in poor taste AND design.

There is nothing you can do to KJC that makes it better than how it is. To me, in its current state, it is perfect. You can cast and move, but you do so with a pretty steep movement penalty that can get you killed if you don't monitor it. For example, if I move and cast on an add on Lei Shen and then I get Helm of Command, I'm in trouble. If they're going to make it 15 seconds active casting while moving on a 90 second cooldown, they might as well call it Demonic Grace since it mirrors Spiritwalker's Grace but isn't Shamanistic.

Mannoroth's Fury is going to be awkward because necessitated AoE isn't always on a 90 second cooldown. Sometimes you want it now, sometimes you want it later, sometimes you want it every 20 seconds.

My recommended changes, if the talents stay the same exact way they are today on the PTR, would be this:

Arch's Vengeance: 10% baseline reflect damage. Activated reflects 50% damage back for 6 seconds. 2 minute cooldown. Nothing disabled while on cooldown. Passive: increases Crit chance by 5%.

Kil'Jaden's Cunning: can move while casting, but movement speed is reduced by 30%. No more stacking debuff, just straight up 30% reduction. Lasts 10 seconds (compromise nerf). Activated allows full movement while casting with no movement penalty for 10 seconds. 2 minute cooldown. Passive: increases Haste by 5%.

Mannoroth's Fury: increases range of AoE abilities by 125% (radius increased 500%). Activated: increases AoE damage by 20% for 10 seconds. 2 minute cooldown. Passive: increases Mastery by 3000 rating.

[Watermasta 7]

100% reflect on AV? Is this before or after mitigation? If it's before, pardon me while I kiss the sky. By kiss the sky, I mean pop Dark Bargain and eat an entire Heroic Lei Shen AC/DC (Thunderstruck) back to the boss hyperinflating my DPS. AC/DC only does like 1.8M damage in heroic mode. Oh, let me pop Dark Bargain and eat Ionization...NOM NOM damage!

Kidding aside, having a mechanic like this influences Warlocks to stand in bad shit to boost damage. This is in poor taste AND design.

I was thinking more as a PVP cooldown to offset the straight damage % reduction we lost from Fel Armor. The examples you give are pretty lol. Lets say it would have to be capped out at your max HP to avoid cheesing lol.

[Vaelyn 6]

Arch's Vengeance: 10% baseline reflect damage. Activated reflects 50% damage back for 6 seconds. 2 minute cooldown. Nothing disabled while on cooldown. Passive: increases Crit chance by 5%.

Kil'Jaden's Cunning: can move while casting, but movement speed is reduced by 30%. No more stacking debuff, just straight up 30% reduction. Lasts 10 seconds (compromise nerf). Activated allows full movement while casting with no movement penalty for 10 seconds. 2 minute cooldown. Passive: increases Haste by 5%.

Mannoroth's Fury: increases range of AoE abilities by 125% (radius increased 500%). Activated: increases AoE damage by 20% for 10 seconds. 2 minute cooldown. Passive: increases Mastery by 3000 rating.

passive haste/crit/mastery is not gonna happen on talents and would make them way overpowered

Plus it would no longer really be a choice, because there will be a "best" option for min-maxing.

[Zagam 1,982]

Nah, there would likely be a 'good' choice per fight or spec, but not an overall winner. Also, check out Shamans for passives that work embedded in talents. It's not hard to visualize.

That said, I know it WON'T come out that way. Just a fleeting daydream I put into a post.

[obleak 10]

If only.. i'm really liking Demo now.

[gahhda 95]

I've started up a thread on the us ptr forums to discuss set bonuses, feedback time!

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9309530957

[obleak 10]

I like your opinions and how you worded it :D You tell em!

[FellintoOblivion 2]

I find this whole issue so ridiculous. 99% of Affliction Warlocks take KJC? Only surprise there is that it's not 100%. Blizzard made a spec reliant on a channeled spell then gave them a talent that lets then move while cast. How surprised can they honestly be that it's taken by almost everyone?

The whole new talent system is a complete failure. They are constantly trying to hit a moving target in regards to "balancing" three talents per tier. Who cares if the old talent system forced raiders into "cookie-cutter" builds? Everyone uses the same "cookie-cutter" gem and enchant builds, why should talents be different? Blizzard trying to make us all unique little snowflakes through the talent system is just wasting time and money. How much effort is going into constant reworking and balancing of talents that could be going into something else if they just accepted that no matter what UI they try and hide a system behind the player base is ALWAYS going to break it down into a spreadsheet and find the optimum choices.

Honestly they should just make KJC baseline but I doubt they have anything worth a damn to fill the hole in the talent tree. It's going to be humorous to see how badly they nerf it when it's still the majority choice in 5.4.

Edited June 17, 2013 by FellintoOblivion

[Zagam 1,982]

I'll never understand their argument when they said they wanted less people to share the same talent combination so they were reducing the number of talents. I remember having VERY diverse talents when we had a 41 point system, even a 31 point system! What did they think they were going to accomplish by giving us only 6 choices out of 18 possibilities? When you start making some talents worthless, the number of combinations grows even smaller.

It's all a process to make us all similar. The only difference between many players of the same class is skill now. It has almost nothing to do with talent choices.

[Omaric 246]

I disagree. I think the new talent system has given people a lot more personal flavor. In the previous renditions the difference was generally between taking a small amount of passive defense instead of a utility ability. Tanks arguably had the most difficult choice with talents, but even they tended to be pretty standard. It's amazing to be able to swap talents on a fight by fight basis.

That said, the warlock final tier I agree *is* a joke.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Omaric

[Ungestuem 1]

KJC: I Think they should give us a new Talent (if it is to strong, i think its not) and let us cast one spell per sprec while moving.

Destru: Chaosbolt, because you have to time your movement, you have the choice of CB while moving OR with high proccs.

Affli: I'm not sure, i would say haunt AND the instant (im missing the name right now) has to make the dots tick instead of refreshing them.

Demo: Soulfire, because you have to save some moltencoreproccs to cast while moving or you can switch into meta.

New Talent: You can cast Soulstone on yourselfe, while you are dead. (I can't think of a new Talent right now)

[rjparker1 7]

Survival nerfs are fine. Pact probably needs one in addition to the Fel Armor nerf. The level 90 talent nerfs are, and I hate to say this because normally only morons use this phrase... "unacceptable". Warlocks would have a full set of 3 complete crap talents to choose from. I'd love to hear Blizzard (or anyone for that matter) attempt to make a case for being offered the 5.4 90 Talents in comparison to the superior choices provided to other classes. I cancelled my subscription and won't re-sub if the 90 talent nerfs go live.

So to paraphrase, you are upset with the changes and the old dog has no room in his house to accept new tricks?

Tsk tsk.. The game evolves with the times, it changes for the better ultimately.. one man's angst is another man's enthusiasm.. somewhere there must be a balance.

I haven't liked MANY thing's about Warcraft since the beginning, but given that there isn't a single game on the planet that has even come close to the polish and game play of WoW I feel that what doesn't detract from my game play won't cause my character to persist as a ghost...

I have fun with Wow, it's a great game, is it perfect? hell no.. but it's far better than every other game. I still love Warcraft III Frozen Throne, nothing better than to simply fire up the game, join battlenet, in 1 minute a game spawns, 30 minutes later the game comes to an end, usually with someone yammering about why the opponents parents never married or some poor attempt at goading by insulting their mother.

I enjoy the game, people are people, programmers are programmers, if we do the same thing day in and day out the game gets static, we quit, company dies, and we have to find another source of entertainment.

You don't like the changes, got it.. but this tantrum is in response to an ultimatem imply that Blizzard change.. is rather impulsive, don't you think?

The PTR *JUST* went live not even a week ago.. did you post these "feelings" on bnet and express your dislike? I highly doubt it.. take the time to contribute positively before you go postal, you may live a happier life...

Communication is still one the best things you can do to fix a problem rather than pout about it.. If you still want to quit, great.. but give them a chance to work it into the system!

All in good time, in the mean time you can still play the way you always have, these changes won't even go live for at least 3 more months... a lot can happen in that time.

[Gravyspasm 70]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9282218881?page=111#2202

Got a few updates for you guys. Standard disclaimer applies that this is all still in early testing and subject to change.

Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.

Looking specifically at Affliction, we're lowering the bonus damage that Malefic Grasp provides and moving that damage over into Haunt and the DoT effects themselves to compensate. We still want Malefic Grasp to be your primary filler for single target DPS, but this will make it a bit less punishing when you can't afford to channel it (especially in PvP). Haunt will once again be interrupted by movement, in favor of the Fel Flame change.

There's been a couple adjustments to the level 90 talents as well. Both Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and Mannoroth's Fury have had their cooldowns and durations lowered to 60 and 10 seconds, respectively. Mannoroth's Fury now only applies to the core AoE damage spells (Seed of Corruption, Hellfire, Immolation Aura, and Rain of Fire), but increases their damage by 100% while active in addition to the range increase. Note that Rain of Fire is being changed to no longer generate enough Burning Embers to be worth using in a single target rotation (so, Destruction shouldn't feel forced into Mannoroth's Fury).

These should hopefully be hitting the PTR in the next build. Once again, please remember that we're very early in the 5.4 development process. Any or all of this may still change before the patch goes live.

[JvChequer 43]

All changes are pretty much MEH, so much effort from Blizzard to change something that was good....maybe the only good thing is: Affliction will be a great dot cleaver like in 4.3 if the buff in dots be that great.

Or the dmg increase will be only on haunt and I read it wrong?

Edited June 18, 2013 by JvChequer