Hunter Sv Viability

[lipsinch 46]

Hello guys, a Rogue sneaking in the den.

I've decided leveling my alt Hunter and picked the Sv spec. Thing is, I see no info or discussion of it on forums. This means the spec is either doing fine, it's really simplistic or it's horrid at the point that no one bothers to talk about it.

What's the current state of it? Anyone who is maining it can give me an insight?

Thanks!

[Iridar 80]

Pretty horrid. It does okay in single target, but not better than any other melee spec and not better than other hunter specs. 

It gains a lot of utility like traps and whatnot, but none of that really matters in a raid setting. Much worse AOE and in general it sucks being in melee without any additional defenses.

Its rotation is really awkward; you have to do 2 completely separate things. Has a great burst, but it requires constant uptime on the target and preparation.

Overall it feels underdeveloped and subpar. We'll just have to hope any of the following major patches fix it.

[lipsinch 46]

5 minutes ago, Iridar said:

Pretty horrid. It does okay in single target, but not better than any other melee spec and not better than other hunter specs. 

It gains a lot of utility like traps and whatnot, but none of that really matters in a raid setting. Much worse AOE and in general it sucks being in melee without any additional defenses.

Its rotation is really awkward; you have to do 2 completely separate things. Has a great burst, but it requires constant uptime on the target and preparation.

Overall it feels underdeveloped and subpar. We'll just have to hope any of the following major patches fix it.

Sad to read this. Was looking forward to play with a spear-spec. Well, let's wait and see what Blizz got for them.

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

1 hour ago, Iridar said:

Pretty horrid. It does okay in single target, but not better than any other melee spec and not better than other hunter specs. 

It gains a lot of utility like traps and whatnot, but none of that really matters in a raid setting. Much worse AOE and in general it sucks being in melee without any additional defenses.

Its rotation is really awkward; you have to do 2 completely separate things. Has a great burst, but it requires constant uptime on the target and preparation.

Overall it feels underdeveloped and subpar. We'll just have to hope any of the following major patches fix it.

Unfortunately this is simply not true. I am sick and tired of people who have barely touched the spec regurgitating negative commentary on forums.  

SV is fantastic on single target, and very very strong on priority add control. You have a similar degree of on demand burst as WoD Retribution Paladin had. Il'Ganoth, Cenarius, and Xavius all have priority add targets that Survival excels at bursting down quickly. Additionally, SV has above average mobility for a melee in the form of harpoon which is extremely handy for both target swaps and run out mechanics, not to mention Elerethe air phase where is is extremely handy for navigating platforms.  

SV AoE is average atm. It's main flaw is that it is inconsistent, you don't have anywhere near the same degree of sustained cleave as BM or MM, but your burst AOE is better provided you have Fury of the Eagle available. You have to time your Fury of the Eagle so that it is ready to go when adds are up. It requires significantly more forethought than BM/MM mindless passive cleave. It isn't bad, it just requires some additional thought and skillful execution.  

The rotation is not awkward. You are either "in" a mongoose window, or "outside" of a mongoose window. When in a mongoose window you cast mongoose bite as many times as possible and finish with a fury of the eagle. When outside of mongoose window you maintain your dots and cast Throwing Axes as filler and Flanking Strike to refill mongoose charges. You sometimes delay entering a mongoose window so that the burst coincides with adds spawning or dps cooldowns becoming available. Simple, and very fun. Much more engaging than BM or MM.  

We cleared normal EMN last night and the spec performed better than expected, I was top dps on Elerethe and Dragons of Nightmare and in the top 5 on every fight. I was not a liability to my raid in anyway. Play SV if you want, its a great spec, very fun and they are likely to buff it because people are complaining that it is bad even though it isnt.

[lipsinch 46]

Did you get logs of your run? I'd appreciate to look at them =D

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

9 minutes ago, lipsinch said:

Did you get logs of your run? I'd appreciate to look at them =D

I'm at work at the moment, can post screenshot of meters when I get home, but I am not currently setup to export logs. In the meantime I would be happy to answer any specific questions you might have.

[Iridar 80]

1 hour ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

Unfortunately this is simply not true. I am sick and tired of people who have barely touched the spec regurgitating negative commentary on forums.  

SV is fantastic on single target, and very very strong on priority add control. You have a similar degree of on demand burst as WoD Retribution Paladin had. Il'Ganoth, Cenarius, and Xavius all have priority add targets that Survival excels at bursting down quickly. Additionally, SV has above average mobility for a melee in the form of harpoon which is extremely handy for both target swaps and run out mechanics, not to mention Elerethe air phase where is is extremely handy for navigating platforms.  

SV AoE is average atm. It's main flaw is that it is inconsistent, you don't have anywhere near the same degree of sustained cleave as BM or MM, but your burst AOE is better provided you have Fury of the Eagle available. You have to time your Fury of the Eagle so that it is ready to go when adds are up. It requires significantly more forethought than BM/MM mindless passive cleave. It isn't bad, it just requires some additional thought and skillful execution.  

The rotation is not awkward. You are either "in" a mongoose window, or "outside" of a mongoose window. When in a mongoose window you cast mongoose bite as many times as possible and finish with a fury of the eagle. When outside of mongoose window you maintain your dots and cast Throwing Axes as filler and Flanking Strike to refill mongoose charges. You sometimes delay entering a mongoose window so that the burst coincides with adds spawning or dps cooldowns becoming available. Simple, and very fun. Much more engaging than BM or MM.  

We cleared normal EMN last night and the spec performed better than expected, I was top dps on Elerethe and Dragons of Nightmare and in the top 5 on every fight. I was not a liability to my raid in anyway. Play SV if you want, its a great spec, very fun and they are likely to buff it because people are complaining that it is bad even though it isnt.

Regurgitating? Wow. Was that really necessary? Haven't raided as SV, but I played enough to form an independent opinion of a very experienced raider. I offered my point of view, and what I said still stands: it is directly inferior to other hunter specs. Not said anything about liability, that's for everyone to decide for themselves. But it doesn't offer anything besides the novelty of playing a melee hunter. 

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by Iridar

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

8 minutes ago, Iridar said:

Regurgitating? Wow. Was that really necessary? Haven't raided as SV, but I played enough to form an independent opinion of a very experienced raider. I offered my point of view, and what I said still stands: it is directly inferior to other hunter specs. Not said anything about liability, that's for everyone to decide for themselves. But it doesn't offer anything besides the novelty of playing a melee hunter. 

 

This is exactly my point, you claim that SV is directly inferior to other hunter specs and yet offer no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to support that claim. You are just regurgitating the opinions of others without contributing anything to the discussion. My experience contradicts your categorization of SV as "inferior". Please be more specific. It is certainly not inferior on single target boss fights like Ursoc, not inferior on 1-3 target burst damage, and generally requires more player engagement than BM or MM which I consider a plus. 

[lipsinch 46]

No need to argue nor be agressive guys, a healthy discussion and different opinions can exist. =D

And no regurgitating, puking or 'sh***ing through fingers' expressions, that's not good.

@VeritasLuxMea, I'll be waiting for the meters! No padding, eh? :P

[katakura 0]

1 hour ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

Unfortunately this is simply not true. I am sick and tired of people who have barely touched the spec regurgitating negative commentary on forums.  

 

5 minutes ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

This is exactly my point, you claim that SV is directly inferior to other hunter specs and yet offer no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to support that claim. You are just regurgitating the opinions of others without contributing anything to the discussion. My experience contradicts your categorization of SV as "inferior". Please be more specific. It is certainly not inferior on single target boss fights like Ursoc, not inferior on 1-3 target burst damage, and generally requires more player engagement than BM or MM which I consider a plus. 

Although the wording "pretty horrid" might be an overstatement, I don't think it's fair to call people in this community "people who have barely touched the spec regurgitating negative commentary".  A lot of people in this community have extensively tested all three specs and their viability in the upcoming raids and mythic+ through alpha/beta tests, simcrafting, and general logic.  Many of these testers leave no stone un-turned.  There is a great deal of transparency in theorycrafting (for hunter at least) so if you would like "proof" there are a lot of different resources you can check.

If someone is striving for the absolute best performance (which many of us are) it is safe to advise against using Survival in Emerald Nightmare.  I understand that Warcraft Logs may be a bit preliminary at this stage, but if you look at the top 10 parsing hunters for all bosses in EN there is not a single Survival hunter to be seen.

In the end, this is a game.  If you enjoy playing as survival, you should play as survival.

[Valks 2,375]

Let's keep this civil, please.

As said above, if you want to play Survival, I'm sure you can. You won't be the top DPS on the meters, but it doesn't matter. If you find it fun, play it.

These are the strengths and cons of the spec as listed by Azor in his guide:

Quote

3. Strengths

• High single-target burst damage
• Powerful utility
• High single-target damage in general

4. Weaknesses

• Fairly complex spec
• Weak AoE capabilities

I'm not a Hunter player, so I can't verify whether this is directly true, but I trust his judgement and they are worth keeping in mind, as well as everything that was said above. 

[Iridar 80]

1 hour ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

You are just regurgitating the opinions of others without contributing anything to the discussion.

And your insults do? If you're so worried about contribution to the discussion, you'd be more constructive than repeating the same insult without any basis.

1 hour ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

you claim that SV is directly inferior to other hunter specs and yet offer no evidence,

My experiences. Don't believe me - fine. Not my job to convince every bully on the internet.

What is your proof that I'm not using my own opinion?

Just wow at your attitude. Spec is barely out, already has inadequate fanbois. 

1 hour ago, katakura said:

 If you enjoy playing as survival, you should play as survival.

Agreed. Final word belongs to raid leader anyways.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Iridar

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

2 hours ago, katakura said:

1 hour ago, Iridar said:

And your insults do? If you're so worried about contribution to the discussion, you'd be more constructive than repeating the same insult without any basis.

My experiences. Don't believe me - fine. Not my job to convince every bully on the internet.

What is your proof that I'm not using my own opinion?

Just wow at your attitude. Spec is barely out, already has inadequate fanbois. 

Agreed. Final word belongs to raid leader anyways.

I apologize if my criticism offends your delicate sensibilities. My intention was not to bully you, but rather to address the inconsistency in your logic. If you cant take criticism, don't share your opinions on a public forum. 

I'm sorry but based on your comments, I just don't trust that you have really spend enough time and energy on the spec for your opinion to be worth anything.  

You are however correct that the spec is very new lets give people some time to play things out and see where it settles in on the dps charts. Don't, as you have done, dismiss the spec outright and tell people it is horrid.

[Iridar 80]

38 minutes ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

 but rather to address the inconsistency in your logic.

Which was not present. What inconsistency? I tried out the spec, and told what I saw and felt and thought. You have no right to claim I haven't tried it out just because I didn't arrive at the same conclusion as you, or worded it differently.

It's not criticism, just an insult. 

>  I just don't trust that you have really spend enough time and energy on the spec for your opinion to be worth anything.  

> Don't, as you have done, dismiss the spec outright and tell people it is horrid.

How about you don't make assumptions about people you know NOTHING about?

No, sir, YOU should not post on these forums if you're not willing to have a civil, intelligent discussion without pointless rudeness.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Iridar

[Orthios 271]

Alright, that's enough.  This is y'alls final warning.  If this type of behavior continues I will not hesitate to edit and/or remove your posts entirely to get rid of this animosity.  This thread was opened up with the intention of having a discussion on Survival, not to insult one another.  Either get back on track yourselves, or I will do it for you.

[Bloodyaxe 1]

I've found the DPS and utility to be very competitive in Mythic and Mythic+ content.  I'll have some info from raids after the weekend.  AOE fluctuates between high and below average depending on Fury of the Eagle. 

I think there is little talk as not many people are playing it for any number of reasons.

[Hawkshotz 0]

I made an account to specifically tell you that SV is completely viable I am currently outdoing the other two hunters in my raid group as SV (on top of doing interrupts and cc) It is a far more playable spec than MM and I feel as though it is actually the better spec for raiding. While MM may top the charts in a simulator SV is for more realistic.

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

3 hours ago, Hawkshotz said:

I made an account to specifically tell you that SV is completely viable I am currently outdoing the other two hunters in my raid group as SV (on top of doing interrupts and cc) It is a far more playable spec than MM and I feel as though it is actually the better spec for raiding. While MM may top the charts in a simulator SV is for more realistic.

I have had a similar experience. Heroic Raider, cleared normal on Tuesday. Was expecting to be outclassed by our Outlaw/Assassination Rogue and worried that despite my 850 ilvl I would be unable to put up the same numbers as our 2 MM hunters.  

I was really pleasantly surprised by the numbers I was able to put up. I was constantly in contention for 2nd/3rd dps spot with the Rogues, and was ahead of the MM hunters on every fight except Il'Gynoth (MM is broken on this fight). On Cenarius I was top damage as well as on Elerethe. I also feel like I have alot more ceiling to explore as well. I definitely was not optimizing my Fury of the Eagles to coincide with add spawns and I made a few mistakes due to being unfamiliar with the fights.  

I foresee buffs in 7.1 due to the overwhelming negative reaction of the community. I have high hopes for the future. But for the love of god please take Fury of the Eagle back off the GCD!

[Bloodyaxe 1]

@VeritasLuxMea Can you post what your secondary stats are at?  I found myself opting out of small ilvl increases in favors of crit and vert > mastery.   And do you run with ferocity or tenacity pet?

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

8 hours ago, Bloodyaxe said:

@VeritasLuxMea Can you post what your secondary stats are at?  I found myself opting out of small ilvl increases in favors of crit and vert > mastery.   And do you run with ferocity or tenacity pet?

Armory Page   Here is a link to my armory. Currently sitting at 39% Crit, 26% Mastery, 3% Haste, and 16% Versatility. I use a Tenacity Specced Carrion Bird for maximum dps. 

Also here is a link to my Logs from Normal Xavius and the logs for the rest of our normal clear on tuesday are Here

I am Rippley.

[DipSid 0]

16 hours ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

Armory Page   Here is a link to my armory. Currently sitting at 39% Crit, 26% Mastery, 3% Haste, and 16% Versatility. I use a Tenacity Specced Carrion Bird for maximum dps. 

Also here is a link to my Logs from Normal Xavius and the logs for the rest of our normal clear on tuesday are Here

I am Rippley.

Could you explain why tenacity > ferocity for maxdps, is thunderclap this much worthwhile?

[Valks 2,375]

On 9/22/2016 at 4:39 PM, Hawkshotz said:

I made an account to specifically tell you that SV is completely viable I am currently outdoing the other two hunters in my raid group as SV (on top of doing interrupts and cc) It is a far more playable spec than MM and I feel as though it is actually the better spec for raiding. While MM may top the charts in a simulator SV is for more realistic.

I understand that you might be winning in your raid, but that's a big claim in your last sentence, especially when you look at the top 10s of every boss. 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#class=Hunter

Not 1 SV Hunter in sight.

[Orthios 271]

2 minutes ago, Blainie said:

I understand that you might be winning in your raid, but that's a big claim in your last sentence, especially when you look at the top 10s of every boss. 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#class=Hunter

Not 1 SV Hunter in sight.

Mind you, there's also ~160  SV parses for Heroic Nythandria vs 6516 for MM and ~2500 for BM.  There is definitely a bias here in that there just isn't enough parses of SV to draw any reasonable conclusion.  This disparity continues for every fight.  It is true that there's no SV hunters in the top spots, but keep in mind that there is the numbers/presence bias.

[Valks 2,375]

3 minutes ago, Orthios said:

Mind you, there's also ~160  SV parses for Heroic Nythandria vs 6516 for MM and ~2500 for BM.  There is definitely a bias here in that there just isn't enough parses of SV to draw any reasonable conclusion.  This disparity continues for every fight.  It is true that there's no SV hunters in the top spots, but keep in mind that there is the numbers/presence bias.

I just feel like there's so many people that reply here/in comment threads about SV being so strong, yet I can't seem to even find people playing it. I would have thought we'd see more parses for it, as well as higher parses, if it had the potential to be that strong. 

For example, Arcane was much weaker than Fire. People kept on with it and are actually even winning on some fights in EN, despite having 249 parses vs. Fire's 9500 or so on Nyth.

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

On 9/24/2016 at 11:31 PM, Blainie said:

I just feel like there's so many people that reply here/in comment threads about SV being so strong, yet I can't seem to even find people playing it. I would have thought we'd see more parses for it, as well as higher parses, if it had the potential to be that strong. 

For example, Arcane was much weaker than Fire. People kept on with it and are actually even winning on some fights in EN, despite having 249 parses vs. Fire's 9500 or so on Nyth.

I think the point he was trying to make is that there aren't enough high-end players playing the spec right now. For example if you look at the logs I posted you will see that I am in the 97th percentile or better on the majority of fights. In the grand scheme of things I am just a casual heroic raider who plays on a potato. If I am in the top3% of SV hunters then I can say with certainty that the good players are not touching the spec. SV is ALOT harder to play optimally than MM or BM especially in a raid setting. Im willing to to bet that if Azor played SV one night his parses would be in line with the numbers we see for top end MM hunters right now.