Hunter Sv Viability

[Valks 2,375]

13 minutes ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

I think the point he was trying to make is that there aren't enough high-end players playing the spec right now. For example if you look at the logs I posted you will see that I am in the 97th percentile or better on the majority of fights. In the grand scheme of things I am just a casual heroic raider who plays on a potato. If I am in the top3% of SV hunters then I can say with certainty that the good players are not touching the spec. SV is ALOT harder to play optimally than MM or BM especially in a raid setting. Im willing to to bet that if Azor played SV one night his parses would be in line with the numbers we see for top end MM hunters right now.  

Why isn't he playing Survival though?

Let's just take a situation here. Azor is about to start progression, he's a hardcore raider that prides himself on performing well. He's most likely going to pick the strongest spec to play. He doesn't pick SV, but takes MM instead. Why would he do so?

Surely all the top Hunters would be taking SV if, as you say, it is stronger than MM in a raid. They're not there to protect Simcraft's reputation, they are there to do as much damage as possible to progress.

I don't disagree that SV can do well, but to claim that it is better than MM in a raid, in which everyone is playing MM and doing better than SV, seems odd.

[Bloodyaxe 1]

Disappointed they have chosen to do a flat buff on Flanking Strike rather than buffing it through mastery to increase its stat weight.

 

Edit: I would love to see mastery include a dot damage increase or proc a free aoe attack.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Bloodyaxe

[Iridar 80]

A week of raiding kinda changed my opinion. It seems there are a few bosses that require single target damage more than anything, and it appears that for now SV does noticeably more of that. 

This is  a comparison of purely single target specs for my gear, with MM using AMoC. "more artifact" refers to 2 gold traits for SV and 3 gold traits for MM, none of which I currently possess, so I added some through wowhead just to check would it can potentially be.

My Piercing Shot MM was enough to get through normal and 6/7 heroic, even though I was behind most other players on several bosses. 

But we hit a dead wall of single target DPS on heroic Xavius, and I can delude myself no longer. That DPS difference would be more than enough to jump me from last to first.

MM is still better on fights with spread out AOE, but honestly - there aren't many fights like that in EN, especially where AOE would be important. 

Also would be interesting to check which spec has higher single target burst within 1 minute window of Il'gynoth, but I'm 90% certain it'll be SV with its 2 FoE inside that window.

[Ilovemuffins 0]

I'm pretty satisfied with it, although I'm sitting around 843 ilevel and I don't feel adequate for heroic EN. Normal EN seemed perfectly fine.

Being melee is a handicap in an of itself. It's much harder to switch targets. You have 1 ability to shorten the distance and if you don't have the artifact trait for it, it's a decently long cooldown. If you have stuff that requires you to run away from the boss, you don't deal damage if you're far aware (aside from throwing axes)

Your burst AoE is pretty nice if you can get it to happen. 6 stacks of mongoose fury into fury of the eagle is a shitload of damage. For fights like the Eye guy in EN, this can be handy. But the build up is obviously a draw back. 

As i'm sure others have noted, it's not very consistent. 

Most of the raid gear and mythic gear that drops for hunters doesnt have versatility, which is your best stat. So it's kind of difficult to find the gear you really need. Looking at some of the top damage dealers in the logs, it seems a lot of them have several 7/7 Obliterated crafted gear pieces. Maybe that's good. Just requires some grind rather than waiting on raid drops.

Finally, I think it allows you some identity as a hunter in a raid. If that's something you care about. The difference between MM and BM is mostly in numbers and consistency, but SV offers you a whole new position to play with. It's a lot of fun. Personally, I'm stuck with it I think. I'm 19 traits in, (14 and 13 on the other 2) and I think it's better at this point to stick with a spec.

 

[Iridar 80]

Tried out SV in the raid setting, on Nizendra and Ursoc normals, instant turn off. I did less DPS than I would with Piercing Shot MM, let alone sidewinders. Simulations look good, so obviously I didn't play it very well, but I also believe it's due to spec's complexity.

It's possible to do more DPS with SV in theory, but it takes an exceptional player in ideal circumstances, which obviously doesn't describe the majority. SV isn't worth switching for certain bosses, but it's worth maining.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Iridar

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

21 hours ago, Iridar said:

Tried out SV in the raid setting, on Nizendra and Ursoc normals, instant turn off. I did less DPS than I would with Piercing Shot MM, let alone sidewinders. Simulations look good, so obviously I didn't play it very well, but I also believe it's due to spec's complexity.

It's possible to do more DPS with SV in theory, but it takes an exceptional player in ideal circumstances, which obviously doesn't describe the majority. SV isn't worth switching for certain bosses, but it's worth maining.

This is why I love the spec so much. The potential is there for competitive DPS, but it requires skill and careful execution in order to make it work. in short, bad players do poor dps, good players do great dps.  

As I said earlier, alot of people are giving the spec a bad name because they haven't invested enough time into playing it. Its not a spec you can swap to, hit a dummy a few times and know everything you need to know (like Bm and MM lol).

I actually think SV performs very well on Ursoc and Nythendra and those are usually two of my best fights. Add control on Cenarius also stands out as an area where SV excels due to the large amount of on demand burst. Il'Gynoth is a fight where even I switch to MM due to the number of adds, though I do agree, SV is much better on the burn phase of that fight.

[Iridar 80]

4 hours ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

This is why I love the spec so much. The potential is there for competitive DPS, but it requires skill and careful execution in order to make it work. in short, bad players do poor dps, good players do great dps.  

Careful execution isn't always possible in raids, no matter the skill. Too much of SV's DPS hinges on Mongoose -> FoE, which requires ~20 seconds of uninterrupted uptime during specific time windows, and literally 1 GCD of mistake and DPS plummets.

Realistically, SV will pump out roughly the same DPS while causing disproportionately more strain on the player, leaving less presence of mind to handle mechanics.  From melee range, and with weaker cleave / sustained AOE.

Sure SV prodigy can play better, plan around mechanics and push the spec to the limit on single target. And AoE / Cleave don't seem to be in much demand for now. 

Yes, you can raid in it, yes you can have success with it. Blizzard has been good at balancing that aspect in last few expansions.

It's a spec that only select few are able to play effectively, making it unviable. Other specs do more things, with higher reliability and require less effort, making them a clear choice for the majority that doesn't close Heroic difficulty raids on first/second weeks.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Iridar

[Lairiel 2]

On September 22, 2016 at 10:21 PM, VeritasLuxMea said:

Armory Page   Here is a link to my armory. Currently sitting at 39% Crit, 26% Mastery, 3% Haste, and 16% Versatility. I use a Tenacity Specced Carrion Bird for maximum dps. 

Also here is a link to my Logs from Normal Xavius and the logs for the rest of our normal clear on tuesday are Here

I am Rippley.

Holy crap man... I just made an account to say this.  I am in awe.  I outgear you, and I'm... Not going to post my logs from last night's normal clear, because you destroyed me.

I'm really enjoying playing Surv, but I've been levelling marks spec because it just seemed more viable (or at least easier for sure) in raid environments.  But you have given me hope sir!

Can I ask your thoughts on Talon strike vs Eagles bite?  The conventional wisdom seems to be that Talon Strike is shit, but in testing, and in logs, I've had it come out pretty much dead even with each being 2% of my overall dps (Neither amazing obviously, but just saying they are comparable).

Aspect of the skyward of course seems Way stronger than either, but the difference between the the other two sort of matter when it comes to the lesser talents around them.  Sharpened Fang, the newly stronger My Beloved Monster...  Can get those on the way to Talon as a second gold rather than Eagles bite.  Terms of Engagement I've also found to be incredibly useful for During add heavy or high mobility fights, Especially if you have Eagles bite so you can multi dot.  But seems to be Way down everyone's suggested Talent order.

(Basically I didn't think about raiding when choosing early talents and went a really stupid way, now I'm trying to convince myself to reset  and lose 18,000 AP, but want to be sure I'm happy with the new path if I choose to do it.  Currently Lacking Aspect >_<)

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

On 9/30/2016 at 8:21 PM, Lairiel said:

Holy crap man... I just made an account to say this.  I am in awe.  I outgear you, and I'm... Not going to post my logs from last night's normal clear, because you destroyed me.

I'm really enjoying playing Surv, but I've been levelling marks spec because it just seemed more viable (or at least easier for sure) in raid environments.  But you have given me hope sir!

Can I ask your thoughts on Talon strike vs Eagles bite?  The conventional wisdom seems to be that Talon Strike is shit, but in testing, and in logs, I've had it come out pretty much dead even with each being 2% of my overall dps (Neither amazing obviously, but just saying they are comparable).

Aspect of the skyward of course seems Way stronger than either, but the difference between the the other two sort of matter when it comes to the lesser talents around them.  Sharpened Fang, the newly stronger My Beloved Monster...  Can get those on the way to Talon as a second gold rather than Eagles bite.  Terms of Engagement I've also found to be incredibly useful for During add heavy or high mobility fights, Especially if you have Eagles bite so you can multi dot.  But seems to be Way down everyone's suggested Talent order.

(Basically I didn't think about raiding when choosing early talents and went a really stupid way, now I'm trying to convince myself to reset  and lose 18,000 AP, but want to be sure I'm happy with the new path if I choose to do it.  Currently Lacking Aspect >_<)

You absolutely HAVE to go up the left side of the artifact tree in order to be raid viable, if for whatever reason you have opted to go the other way, spend the points to respec. The talent which grants aspect of the eagle +30% damage buff is the only reason the spec even functions, its so powerful when combined with Fury of the Eagle and 6 stack bites. 

Talon strike is terrible, my plan is to ignore it until last. I'm just afraid they might buff it.

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

On 9/29/2016 at 4:06 PM, Iridar said:

Careful execution isn't always possible in raids, no matter the skill. Too much of SV's DPS hinges on Mongoose -> FoE, which requires ~20 seconds of uninterrupted uptime during specific time windows, and literally 1 GCD of mistake and DPS plummets.

Realistically, SV will pump out roughly the same DPS while causing disproportionately more strain on the player, leaving less presence of mind to handle mechanics.  From melee range, and with weaker cleave / sustained AOE.

Sure SV prodigy can play better, plan around mechanics and push the spec to the limit on single target. And AoE / Cleave don't seem to be in much demand for now. 

Yes, you can raid in it, yes you can have success with it. Blizzard has been good at balancing that aspect in last few expansions.

It's a spec that only select few are able to play effectively, making it unviable. Other specs do more things, with higher reliability and require less effort, making them a clear choice for the majority that doesn't close Heroic difficulty raids on first/second weeks.

Again your logic is flawed. Just because something is difficult to master does not make it "unviable". In fact across the broad spectrum of competitive gaming many of the MOST viable characters, specs, classes, champions, etc. are those that are easy to learn and hard to master. Zed from League of Legends is virtually impossible for the majority of players to play optimally, but he is considered one of the best champions in the game (or was for a time) because the best players in the world were able to play him so well. 

[Iridar 80]

2 hours ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

Again your logic is flawed. Just because something is difficult to master does not make it "unviable". In fact across the broad spectrum of competitive gaming many of the MOST viable characters, specs, classes, champions, etc. are those that are easy to learn and hard to master. Zed from League of Legends is virtually impossible for the majority of players to play optimally, but he is considered one of the best champions in the game (or was for a time) because the best players in the world were able to play him so well. 

At this point we'd be arguing semantics = what is "viable".

Bringing Zed as an example works against your argument. 

At relatively high tiers of play (plat+), Zed has very low winrate, which doesn't increase past 50% even with 100+ games played. 

Same thing with Lee Sin as another "high skill" champion, he's very popular for his spectacular combos at lower ELO, but higher ranked players tend to go in favor of simpler and more reliable picks. In fact, "play simple champions" is a very common advice given to people who want to rank up. 

And the "no" answer is usually given when people ask if they should bother with learning a high skill cap champion such as Riven.

High skill requirement doesn't change if something is viable on a personal level. Obviously you have proven that with SV can be used effectively, and I'm sure many separate players can testify to that as well.

But high skill requirement does mean that an average player won't have as much success with SV, and there's no reason for him to ever bother with it in its current state.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Iridar

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

On 10/3/2016 at 0:05 AM, Iridar said:

At this point we'd be arguing semantics = what is "viable".

Bringing Zed as an example works against your argument. 

At relatively high tiers of play (plat+), Zed has very low winrate, which doesn't increase past 50% even with 100+ games played. 

Same thing with Lee Sin as another "high skill" champion, he's very popular for his spectacular combos at lower ELO, but higher ranked players tend to go in favor of simpler and more reliable picks. In fact, "play simple champions" is a very common advice given to people who want to rank up. 

And the "no" answer is usually given when people ask if they should bother with learning a high skill cap champion such as Riven.

High skill requirement doesn't change if something is viable on a personal level. Obviously you have proven that with SV can be used effectively, and I'm sure many separate players can testify to that as well.

But high skill requirement does mean that an average player won't have as much success with SV, and there's no reason for him to ever bother with it in its current state.

In his prime (2014), Zed was the most picked/banned champion in the game. He was a factor in literally every game at the highest level of play. I am sure he has been nerfed quite a bit since then. Perhaps the meta has evolved since I last followed competitive League.  

Also I would point out that the Zed analogy I made was in regards to competitive play, as in the top 1% of the top 1%. Winrate among plat+ players is basically irrelevant. Either way, no serious LoL analyst would have ever called Zed "unviable".

To be clear, in no way am I claiming that SV hunter is some sort of untapped powerhouse that is only waiting for a Faker-esque prodigy to come along and break the spec wide open. It is pretty clear that the 1% of the 1% have decided that MM is the go to raid spec. And yes I am arguing semantics, this is the internet after all.

[Iridar 80]

1 hour ago, VeritasLuxMea said:

In his prime (2014), Zed was the most picked/banned champion in the game. He was a factor in literally every game at the highest level of play. I am sure he has been nerfed quite a bit since then. Perhaps the meta has evolved since I last followed competitive League.  

Also I would point out that the Zed analogy I made was in regards to competitive play, as in the top 1% of the top 1%. Winrate among plat+ players is basically irrelevant. Either way, no serious LoL analyst would have ever called Zed "unviable".

To be clear, in no way am I claiming that SV hunter is some sort of untapped powerhouse that is only waiting for a Faker-esque prodigy to come along and break the spec wide open. It is pretty clear that the 1% of the 1% have decided that MM is the go to raid spec. And yes I am arguing semantics, this is the internet after all.

... so basically we return to square one: SV offers roughly the same performance in single target DPS, while suffering everywhere else.

This makes spec unviable to some people, and perfectly fine to others. 

The question was never "can someone raid as SV?". Answer to that question is always "yes", because there's always a guild of fluffy and friendly casuals and socials that play for participation, not result. And there's always be an exceptional player that can make anything work. That much is obvious.

The question is "should someone raid as SV?". For reasons I stated many times, I believe the answer is "no". And it will remain so until I see or experience proof that an average SV player can perform better than other specs at something.  

Edited October 4, 2016 by Iridar

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

22 minutes ago, Iridar said:

... so basically we return to square one: SV offers roughly the same performance in single target DPS, while suffering everywhere else.

These are the facts. It. Is. Inferior. 

This makes spec unviable to some people, and perfectly fine to others. 

The question was never "can someone raid as SV?". Answer to that question is always "yes", because there's always a guild of fluffy and friendly casuals and socials that play for participation, not result. That much is obvious.

The question is "should someone raid as SV?". For reasons I stated many times, I believe the answer is "no". And it will remain so until I see or experience proof that an average SV player can perform better than other specs at something.  

No...square one was you calling the spec "horrid" followed by my assertion that "horrid" was an unfair characterization. I think we have had a pretty healthy discussion up to this point, and it is clear to me that Survival is at worst average in the hands of a competent player. So to the initial inquiry "what is the state of Survival at the moment?" I maintain that it is fine. It could use some buffs, some quality of life improvements, but it is certainly playable in the current heroic raiding mythic+ content.  

I disagree completely with your assertion that no one should raid as Survival because it is inferior, and with your implication that the only place for a Survival hunter is in a fluffy or casual guild. 

[Ryualura 0]

I do believe the lack of surv players is due to the stigma of hate that developed on the WoW Hunter forums.

[Lairiel 2]

On October 2, 2016 at 8:38 PM, VeritasLuxMea said:

You absolutely HAVE to go up the left side of the artifact tree in order to be raid viable, if for whatever reason you have opted to go the other way, spend the points to respec. The talent which grants aspect of the eagle +30% damage buff is the only reason the spec even functions, its so powerful when combined with Fury of the Eagle and 6 stack bites. 

Talon strike is terrible, my plan is to ignore it until last. I'm just afraid they might buff it.

Oh agreed absolutely.  I already did.  That buff is by far the best single point in the tree and makes up for a bunch of junk pics.  The question is if continuing up that side is really all that superior to grabbing the bottom right-ish area and heading up the right side.  The second most powerful point is likely the 20% aspect cd reduction, but it's pretty far off regardless of path, so then it comes down to which route to take to get there.

The conventional wisdom is, as you said, that Talon strike is Terrible.  But I had it for quite a while due to shitty spec choice, and I can confirm that it's pretty much dead even with the Harpoon dot point at the spear tip.  It's not great, but it's better than any non golden point other than the 20% cd reduction.

Also, up the right side are pet haste, mongoose strike buff, and flanking crit (which just got that nice 60% buff making it a lot better).  The left side has lacerate, which is numerically weaker than mongoose or flank, and the trap reduction which is amazing but can be snagged for a single point.

There's also the harpoon refresh point, which conventionally is left till much later, but that seems like a mistake since it can be a huge benefit in making up for a lack of disengage.

It's a purely academic point since I'm not going to respec again, but it seems to me that taking the left side up to the trap reduction, then switching to the right side up to the aspect reduction would produce better results.  

[Mcdermott 3]

On 9/22/2016 at 8:39 AM, Hawkshotz said:

I made an account to specifically tell you that SV is completely viable I am currently outdoing the other two hunters in my raid group as SV (on top of doing interrupts and cc) It is a far more playable spec than MM and I feel as though it is actually the better spec for raiding. While MM may top the charts in a simulator SV is for more realistic.

I hate to be that guy but i just made an account to point out that its exactly the opposite.  Survival tops charts on patchwerk style simulators, whereas it falls off on the accumulated logs taken from actual raids.   Marksman performs with mediocrity on patchwerk sims and leaps ahead where actual raid mechanics come into play.  At least with the accumulated information we have so far.  Outliers may occur based on peoples skill level, and the comparative skill level of those around them.

 

Edit: Also the idea that a stigma of hate on forums  is why top players aren't playing survival is kind of a sour grapey attitude,  top raiders can't afford to be wedded to any spec the way lots of people get in this game, they push for the mathematically optimal options whatever they might be.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Mcdermott

[OrcHuunter 0]

Just made this account to ask a question.

 

Do you use the rotation on the forums?

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

18 hours ago, OrcHuunter said:

Just made this account to ask a question.

 

Do you use the rotation on the forums?

You mean the Rotation in the guide?

[OrcHuunter 0]

Yes.

 

Are you following it to the letter or doing your own rotation? On Patchwerk type fights I go with:

 

1. Pot

2. Dragonsfire Grenade

3. Harpoon

4. Explosive Trap

5. Lacerate

6. Flanking Strike

7. Mongoose 2x

8. Glance over to see if Lacerate, Ex Trap, or Fl Strike are up and reapply.

9. Pop Aspect of the Eagle

10. Mongoose til 6 stacks with or w/o Snake hunter

11. Last second glance at cds and then pop Fury of the Eagle.

 

just hit 110.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by OrcHuunter

[VeritasLuxMea 1]

On 10/6/2016 at 0:42 PM, OrcHuunter said:

Yes.

 

Are you following it to the letter or doing your own rotation? On Patchwerk type fights I go with:

 

1. Pot

2. Dragonsfire Grenade

3. Harpoon

4. Explosive Trap

5. Lacerate

6. Flanking Strike

7. Mongoose 2x

8. Glance over to see if Lacerate, Ex Trap, or Fl Strike are up and reapply.

9. Pop Aspect of the Eagle

10. Mongoose til 6 stacks with or w/o Snake hunter

11. Last second glance at cds and then pop Fury of the Eagle.

 

just hit 110.

 

 

 

 

Similar but not exactly what im doing. 

Pre-Pot then;

1. Harpoon

2. Dragonsfire Grenade

3. Explosive Trap

4. Lacerate

5. Mongoose Bite

6.Flanking Strike

7. Mongoose Bite 

8. Aspect of the Eagle

9. Mongoose Bite/SnakeHunter up to 6 Stacks

10. Mongoose Bite/Flanking Strike until Fury Falls off

11. Refresh Lacerate/Expolsive/Dragonsfire

12.Fill with Throwing Axes/Flanking Strike until Mongoose Bite reaches 3 charges

 

[OrcHuunter 0]

I will try this rotation and thank you for responding.

[Critocalypse 2]

Made an account just to reply to this post lol.

I raid as SV, cleared Normal EN as well as Heroic EN, working on mythic now. It is totally viable, and I beat the other hunters on some fights, other ones they beat me. Varies boss to boss.

Talents : http://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/hunter/survival/cQQM

As for rotation, you have 2 rotations. Opening rotation for max burst damage, and then your normal rotation.

Burst rotation:

Potion of the old war
Harpoon
Explosive Trap
Dragonsfire Grenade
Lacerate
Mongoose bite x3
Snake Hunter
Aspect of the Eagle
Mongoose bitex3
Watch time left on mongoose fury, use explosive Trap/Dragonsfire grenade/lacerate if off CD but use any stacks of mongoose that proc immediately.
When mongoose fury is about to expire, use your Artifact weapon ability (fury of the eagle)
Lastly, use any extra charges of Mongoose Bite that procced while channeling fury

After that you use your normal priority list based on damage in this order:
Explosive Trap
Dragonsfire Grenade
Lacerate
Mongoose Bite (yes use them as they proc, dont bother saving them *see note at bottom though)
Flanking Strike
Throwing Axes (should be using this)
Raptor Strike (focus dump, dont do too many, having focus for the other abilities is more important)

*note on Mongoose Bite: when CD on Aspect of the Eagle or Fury of the Eagle is close then start skipping Mongoose bite in your rotation so you can save up 3 stacks. You should be able to get a 3 stack mongoose/fury of eagle combo in between your aspect/fury/mongoose combos.

Heres a log from one of our Mythic Nythendra wipes last the other night. I am item level 561, and opening burst is over 600k on this pull.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1bwPHYfkZgpRNnhc/#source=20&type=damage-done&fight=41

On average I end most fights around 250k-300k dps depending on the fight, how many adds, how much movement, etc. 

 

[Waenyin 1]

On 9/21/2016 at 3:04 PM, lipsinch said:

Hello guys, a Rogue sneaking in the den.

I've decided leveling my alt Hunter and picked the Sv spec. Thing is, I see no info or discussion of it on forums. This means the spec is either doing fine, it's really simplistic or it's horrid at the point that no one bothers to talk about it.

What's the current state of it? Anyone who is maining it can give me an insight?

Thanks!

what i would say...if you enjoy SV play it... my general knowledge of  playing WoW is play what you love/like to play and you will outperform anything you hate to play (but have to play because of HIGHER dps or other random stuff)

My previous GM/RL would always tell us to play what ever we liked to play this strengthens the raidgroup as a whole and a Guild as a group. (this guild was very very successful in Server firsts etc.)(i was not a part off since i took a break from WoW)

Anyway TLDR;

Play what you want and enjoy it. you will automatically outperform something you hate to play.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Waenyin
Language :D

[Lairiel 2]

On 2016-10-10 at 2:02 AM, Waenyin said:

what i would say...if you enjoy SV play it... my general knowledge of  playing WoW is play what you love/like to play and you will outperform anything you hate to play (but have to play because of HIGHER dps or other random stuff)

My previous GM/RL would always tell us to play what ever we liked to play this strengthens the raidgroup as a whole and a Guild as a group. (this guild was very very successful in Server firsts etc.)(i was not a part off since i took a break from WoW)

Anyway TLDR;

Play what you want and enjoy it. you will automatically outperform something you hate to play.

 

True enough.  I stuck with survival as the Marks play style drove me nuts.  I remain competitive with the other hunters in my guild.  I beat them on some fights, and lose on others.  And for me anyway, it's waaaaay more fun to play.  Marks feels awkward and spastic, like you're just reacting to procs and playing turret.  Survival feels like you're trying to build something delicate while dodging fireballs.  A lot more involved, and very satisfying when it all just lines up perfectly.

I have some hope that the 7.1 changes will add some quality of life help too, though mastery is still gimped and I worry about long term scalability.  That said, looking forward, the tier set bonus in combination with certain legendaries look like they might position survival as the undisputed King of burst damage.  We will see how it pans out.