Elemental Shaman Trinkets Haste or Crit?

[Ronebean 6]

_{Hello Everyone}

Heres my guy from armory _{http://eu.battle.net...Ronebean/simple}

_{As you can see i got the essenece of brillance last night replacing the essence of terror trinket i had previosuly won on raid finder. this new trinket reduces my spell power by 1000 points and features crit rather than haste.}

_{The ilvl is higher and it ranks higher on some BiS lists but should i be favouring a trinket which provides crit over one that procs haste which has served our spec well for expansions?}

_{Thank you}

[Stoove 347]

Hi Ronebean, good question.

I don't play Elemental, and I think it would be helpful to like the tooltips of the trinkets you would like to discuss;

Essence of Terror

Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance

My guess here is that the increased iLvl means that the newer trinket is better.

Crit is not a very good stat for Elemental, but you can reforge that to Haste or Mastery. The important thing is that the proc is on Critical Hit. Your Lava Blast ALWAYS crits, so you have an extremely good chance to proc this.

More experienced Elemental Shaman might know otherwise.

[Chivalry 1]

The new trinket is better just because.

Shaman is a burst class, not a sustained damage classe. That int proc will make your ascendance more effective. The only real question about trinkets is between ones from this tier.

[rjparker1 7]

_{Hello Everyone}

Heres my guy from armory _{http://eu.battle.net...Ronebean/simple}

_{As you can see i got the essenece of brillance last night replacing the essence of terror trinket i had previosuly won on raid finder. this new trinket reduces my spell power by 1000 points and features crit rather than haste.}

_{The ilvl is higher and it ranks higher on some BiS lists but should i be favouring a trinket which provides crit over one that procs haste which has served our spec well for expansions?}

_{Thank you}

I take it this is from askmrrobot. If you look at maxdps, that is different from MMO champion which is different from WoWhead, which is different still than wowreforge.

They ALL have their vantage points.

Here is mine, Crit does nothing. the proc rates are not worth using. The SINGLE biggest gain as Ele you will get is haste, period bar none.

haste is a better proc than crit, don't believe the hype. I may not have highest iLVL items, but for my level I am doing quite well... I avoid crit like the plague, and ALWAYS reforge to something else whenever possible. It's not worth the stat, use spell power (which is immensely bettter for damage) instead of crit which MIGHT proc.. take the sure thing.

As Elemental you want Intellect > haste > mastery > crit. After you get the most intellect you can get, go haste. I always beat other Ele shaman in RAIDs even if they have higher stats and iLVL...

The crit item only benefits 1 PPM (proc per minute) -- maybe it's 2, don't remember -- for 10 seconds. That other intellect is ALWAYS there, and you get a huge haste bump for 20 seconds.... same proc rate..

Besides it will cost you 500 VP to upgrade that 496 item to 504..which is NOW a higher iLVL.. yeah you can argue you can raise the other to 510 as well, but do NOT do it..

In my experience.. and take this for what it's worth... the CRIT has ZERO benefit.

Keep both, do 2 different raids.. use one in the first raid, use the other in the second raid. Run your character through simcraft.. test it for yourself.. I am CERTAIN you will see a sustained Spell power is better than short term for 10 seconds ANY day of the week..

I guarantee you will disenchant the Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance very soon

Edited June 17, 2013 by rjparker1

[rjparker1 7]

The new trinket is better just because.

Shaman is a burst class, not a sustained damage classe. That int proc will make your ascendance more effective. The only real question about trinkets is between ones from this tier.

That statement is just PURE false.. Shaman have the WORST burst damage among ALL DPS classes.. the WORST! Don't know where you got that Shaman is a burst class, not a sustained damage classe information but it is utterly and completely FALSE!

Shaman is a long term, sustained damage class.. ascendance has BETTER damage but to say it's Burst is like saying a ford fiesta utilizes turbo because you press the pedal to the floor..

Edited June 17, 2013 by rjparker1

[Ronebean 6]

Thank you for responses so far my instinct has been telling me to go with the haste trinket especially as it can be upgraded at a very modest cost.

[Adhemar 3]

Thank you for responses so far my instinct has been telling me to go with the haste trinket especially as it can be upgraded at a very modest cost.

There's a lot that goes into this. Haste is Elemental's best secondary, yes. But our cast times are short to begin with and combining haste procs with each other or with heroism will GCD cap you (a 0.8 second cast still has a 1.0 second GCD, meaning you spend 0.2 seconds doing nothing, which means the haste that got you from 1.0 to 0.8 seconds is wasted in the same way extra hit rating would be wasted after hit cap).

This becomes more of an issue when you have the legendary meta, but it's probably already an issue for you when your shado-pan trinket procs during heroism.

However, the proc components of trinkets are frequently much more important than their static stats, and that is the case for both of the trinkets you're asking about. I notice you now have Unerring Vision of Lei Shen and I would like to tell you that Cha-Ye's Essence is a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH stronger trinket for Elemental. That crit proc from Unerring Vision does absolutely nothing to help your Lava Burst out, which is a major component of your damage.

The best trinkets for Elemental are Wushoolay's, followed by Breath of the Hyrda, followed by Cha-Ye's. Item level plays a role here, but even the LFR version of Breath of the Hyrda is better for Elemental than Unerring Vision.

[Stoove 347]

Excellent and clear advice from Adhemar, there. You get a like! ^__^

My understanding of trinkets for Shaman is that the procs are much more important than their secondary stats (which can be reforged anyway). I wouldn't waste ilvl upgrades on a trinket that you're likely to replace through coins/LFR. For that reason alone, I'd take the higher ilvl trinket.

CRIT has ZERO benefit.

Correct, but here I think the proc is more important (see Adhemar's comment).

[kitsu 55]

the main thing with trinkets from ToT is that they use a different proc system than other trinkets. your current trinket choices (terror/volatile) are the best for your gear. the ToT trinkets will not proc enough to make them very good for you until you get your legendary meta and have at least 7k haste from gear.

while breath is hands down teh best trink for us ele out of tot, the only reason woosh is rated high is because hit is extremely valuable, but once hit reaches cap it is worth zero. keep this in mind when gearing from tot because the gear there has a ton of hit. if you are already reforging a lot of spririt/hit away you should look for cha-ye over woosh.

until you get your legendary meta and your tot 4pc you are going to cast a LOT of lightning bolts and crit will actually help your dps more than casting a few extra lightning bolts per fight, so dont listen to people who tell you crit is zero. crit affects everything but lava burst and is much better for you than being over hit cap, which is absolutely worth zero dps.

another thing to keep in mind is that double haste does not overtake intellect for us at low ilvl like shadow priest (505), although it does eventually. you may see ele gemming haste over int, but this is not correct until your ilvl is above 530.

[Ronebean 6]

Thank you for new posts,

Kitsu - to clarify your saying stay with current trinkets until the loot gods deliver my 4p set?

[Stoove 347]

Kitsu - to clarify your saying stay with current trinkets until the loot gods deliver my 4p set?

The loot gods will destroy your sanity!!1!

(I've been farming LFR for months to try to get catchup gear, and once I've finally got mostly 522's anyway the loot FINALLY starts dropping. And is vendored. Screw you, loot gods!)

[kitsu 55]

Kitsu - to clarify your saying stay with current trinkets until the loot gods deliver my 4p set?

nah, just until you get a bit more gear. any trinks right now that dont drop from bosses in ToT have an icd and proc at a pretty constant rate. trinks that drop from ToT work off of a set proc rate with no limit from an icd, so they scale with your gear and proc more often when you have more haste.

the stuff about the 4p relates to crit and how it isnt useless. the worse your gear is, the better crit is for you. and there's no need to throw away cha-ye, i use it with breath and it makes reforging and fitting in gear upgrades much easier than wooshoo because it doesnt come with a billion hit.

edit: dont take that to mean that all the crit/spirit valor gear is okay for ele, you still want haste it's just that as you add more haste, other stats become more valuable and haste becomes less valuable. but then there are break points and it gets complicated. you can follow simple guidlines and get through normal mode just fine.

if you start getting actual raid drops and the Legendary Meta Gem and find yourself approaching the 522 ilvl and can easily hit 7k+ haste, trinket priority is: breath > wooshoo > cha-ye > UVLS > Volatile

(as long as youre not over hit with wooshoo, if you find yourself above 16 with wooshoo equipped cha-ye is a good choice)

always pass UVLS to spriest and locks, it is a very fun trink for them, but it is better than volatile if no one needs it but you.

Edited June 26, 2013 by kitsu

[Stoove 347]

Rone, if you PM me ingame I can tell you how to do some simulations that might answer some questions for definite. :)

[Krewger 0]

"if you are already reforging a lot of spririt/hit away you should look for cha-ye over woosh.

That is bad advice, Woosh is by far the best trinket for elemental shaman, even the raid finder version is above most of the normal ToT trinkets, and its not because of the hit rating, its the sustained 20 seconds of increased spell power and the reliability of it proccing. The 2nd best trinket for ele sham is hydra, clearly both BiS are the heroic thunderforged versions, but even normal fully upgraded trinkets are worth their weight in gold.

As for the other topic, where the convo mentioned haste over all other stats, well this is not so much true anymore. It is true until you reach about 35-37% (with the legendary gem). After that mastery becomes more important because there is a bar on how fast your spells can actually go.

I'm talking as an ele shaman, having cleared so far 11/13 heroic and I am pulling some pretty nice dps, my haste is at about 36% and mastery 54%. I will be increasing mastery over haste now in all future reforges and gems. Also I have opted to scrap the intellect gems (apart from on red slots, where I use orange gems) and have started stacking pure mastery gems 320 mastery per gem.

It very much depends how you like to play your shaman, but if you go check a lot of the top geared shammies you will see many more than me adopting this method, and I have to say it is very good.

[kitsu 55]

what's your uptime on woosh? ive never seen it drop, so i have breath and brilliance. my uptime on breath is about 35% and brilliance is about 30% on average.

it just seems like you would need a bit more uptime since the buff from woosh has to ramp up, and if you dont get a lava burst in the last few seconds it might not even be that much better, even though it averages like 200 more spell power per proc.

it also seems like all the elementals want to stack mastery for minmax so in a 25 for every attempt they have low performance can be followed by an fight with pretty decent numbers from mastery procs going their way. i raid ten and still stack haste because it seems more consistant, especially with less gear and way less tforged slots.

[Krewger 0]

Yeh well I always say if you dont have the legendary meta or much heroic gear then keep stacking haste, but once your haste reaches 35%+ and you have the meta and a reasonable amount of heroic gear, mastery starts to become a better secondary stat, ive tested it a number of times now changing gems, reforging etc and mastery for me now provides the greatest dps...

[Krewger 0]

Hmm, im changing my mind again, gone back to stacking haste and have to say it is better! Unless you can get 65%+ mastery stick with haste

[Krewger 0]

Can settle this once and for all after a ticket made to Blizzard.....here goes.....

 

I am getting really anxious and frustrated at the lack of information about which stats to use now as ele shaman, and would please like someone with actual knowledge to clear it up for me. I keep spending and wasting gold re-gemming and reforging to test it and cannot come up with anything. Is there a haste cap for elemental shaman? If so, at what point does mastery become better? Please can you give me some guidance on this, I have searched for hours on the internet and no-one seems to know for sure, i would like to be able ot pass on the knowledge to others in need of help! (my ticket)

 

Thank you for your mail, every voice matters at Blizzard!

Hey there my friend and great to hear from you =) 

It just so happens that my housemate and also a fellow GM xD Is an insane pro elemental shaman before elemental shamans were even popular, he is a PvP beast, but he basically knows it all about ele shamans, I wish I could link you his armory profile you would be blown away, but we cant for security and privacy concerns. So ofc I have tapped him up for information. The information I am giving you is about the most any GM can, the thing you were doing before checking on the internet and with others in-game is the correct way to solve this, we cannot really provide gameplay hints or knowledge.

Here it comes and I hope this information helps, we want to do our best for your guys!

"For PVP it is INT > Haste > Mastery > for pve the same i think.

Int > all - after that haste 

Is there a haste cap for elemental shaman? - No

"So mastery is not better than haste? - I would say no...

Haste = Faster flame shock procc ---- Flame shock proc = chance that lava burst is instant without cast time and CD reset for lava burst too.

Mastery is just a chance that the same spell proccs again for less dmg (also good but not better)"

I hope this information helps, we want to do our best for your guys!

You do not need to reply to this ticket, unless you have a new issue.

Warmest Regards

GM Smoburz (their response)

 

 

Hope this helps anyone confused over which stats are better!

[kitsu 55]

just get simcraft dude. thats what its for. we have a lot of threasholds where once you get certain amounts of base stats, one is worth slightly more than another. for each individual ele setup, things are slightly different because of how close in value haste and mastery are.

 

the point of haste is to get the rppm trinks to proc, which is changing next patch anway, but in certain groups ele is stacking mastery because the fights are so short no amount of haste is gonna get you enough trink procs to be a reliable gain.

 

look at these sociopaths one heal h durumu. theres another raid in their logs where they one heal h horridon. in fights that short you just want a chance that your mastery proc streak gets your burst super high during hero, when all your stuff will proc for sure anyway.