Frost Dk machine gun roation question

[demonardvark 556]

On 10/3/2016 at 7:54 PM, Rhaenys said:

I made an account here solely to say that this seemed to painfully obvious that it has really thrown into question the quality of the builds here. Sindragosa's Fury is so bad that it's not even funny. Sure a 2.2m crit is nice, but considering that's a few obliterates worth of damage, that can be performed in a fraction of the time, I honestly can't figure out why someone thought SF was good.

If you math it out hypothermia certainly does out perform SF on long boss fights. However, in dungeons and quick boss fights sindragosas fury does much better. Hypothermia has a 10% chance to proc with frost plague only ticking every 3 seconds (old number not sure if tick rate the same) so in shorter situations Hypothermia doesn't have time to tick and do enough damage. So for raiding lfr, normal, and heroic, hypothermia is far superior, however, for quick mythic kills and mythic + SF is better due to the clock.

Most guides on the site are aimed at end game top content. That is likely why SF was chosen as the first talent. It is a very clear and understandable choice. If writing a guide for a end game progression person that would be the proper progression route. However, for all others who don't do end game mythic (statistically most of us) its hypothermia that is a better choice considering we will likely be less geared and have much longer fights. 

Also both abilities are so close to each other than with more focus on ap grinding one will have both in relatively short time of each other, but, for the non mythic player, I suggest hypothermia first by far. (edit, SF is practically better, the rng of hypothermia and low proc rate make it garbage)

[Alexizonfire 7]

Yeah, hypo should def beat SF in ST raid bosses, but it's depressing to know it's only going to outdps by a a few thousands bc 5min cd. Has anyone tested last golden trait with let's say 3 RW relics and the RW talent? It sounds much more exciting than hypo to me.

[demonardvark 556]

15 minutes ago, Alexizonfire said:

Yeah, hypo should def beat SF in ST raid bosses, but it's depressing to know it's only going to outdps by a a few thousands bc 5min cd. Has anyone tested last golden trait with let's say 3 RW relics and the RW talent? It sounds much more exciting than hypo to me.

For aoe cleaving its certainly a nice bonus however its relatively weak against single bosses, for trash pulls you actually would want to not have the rw talent because that would extend the duration, frozen soul proc when RW ends, and aside from the number of targets RW hits, frozen souls damage is not influenced by remorseless winters damage. So, its a additional chunk of dps but I think its appropriately the last golden trait we should pursue. 

[Malarick 0]

Hi fellow undeads, I'm a returning player from MoP and a little bit of WoD.

I love frost and have been playing with it a lot.
Why mostly every build that I encountered state that  Glacial Advance is the go to talent for frost?
Is it that powerful even vs Obliteration talent? Am I missing something here?

Edited October 4, 2016 by Malarick

[demonardvark 556]

1 hour ago, Malarick said:

Hi fellow undeads, I'm a returning player from MoP and a little bit of WoD.

I love frost and have been playing with it a lot.
Why mostly every build that I encountered state that  Glacial Advance is the go to talent for frost?
Is it that powerful even vs Obliteration talent? Am I missing something here?

obliteration sims higher but glacial advance practically does more damage and fits the rotation better. The current rotation is denoted as the machine gun rotation for the rapid expendeture of runes, because of the frozen pulse talent we are burning through our rotation super fast. The issue with obliteration is that it requires a bit of resource pooling that is counter productive to the style, in addition it has a rather lengthy cooldown for what ultimately is just 3 guaranteed km procs. Versus GA fits into the rotation nicely, has a short cooldown, and is quite powerful for the invested one rune. 

[Alexizonfire 7]

2 hours ago, demonardvark said:

For aoe cleaving its certainly a nice bonus however its relatively weak against single bosses, for trash pulls you actually would want to not have the rw talent because that would extend the duration, frozen soul proc when RW ends, and aside from the number of targets RW hits, frozen souls damage is not influenced by remorseless winters damage. So, its a additional chunk of dps but I think its appropriately the last golden trait we should pursue. 

Well on mythic+ trash pulls generally last longer than 20 seconds, i imagine they would too in EN MYTHIC.

[Vellis 0]

On the topic of artifact progression, are we sure that the current recommendation is still correct?  Sindy and Hypothermia are obviously still priority, but If I'm not mistaken Machine Gun will rarely, if ever, use Rime procs.  So this would de-value the importance of Blast Radius which is currently listed as path 3.  Likewise, with the importance of keeping Icy Talons up, would the increased range on Frost Strike be an appreciable dps increase in practical encounters that often require you to move away from your target frequently?  It's currently listed as the last talent you should get, but I have no idea how to test this theory =p

[demonardvark 556]

5 hours ago, Vellis said:

On the topic of artifact progression, are we sure that the current recommendation is still correct?  Sindy and Hypothermia are obviously still priority, but If I'm not mistaken Machine Gun will rarely, if ever, use Rime procs.  So this would de-value the importance of Blast Radius which is currently listed as path 3.  Likewise, with the importance of keeping Icy Talons up, would the increased range on Frost Strike be an appreciable dps increase in practical encounters that often require you to move away from your target frequently?  It's currently listed as the last talent you should get, but I have no idea how to test this theory =p

There is still considerable debate on one aspect of machine gun, and that's obliterate versus frost scythe. Keep in mind icy guides are written assuming max everything, they are presenting the absolute top rotation with top gear. That being said frostscythe takes a buttload of mastery to be able to overtake obliterate, in addition obliterate spends more rune leading to more frozen pulse uptime. So, while progressing obliterate is better for machine gun over frost scythe outside of aoe situations, thus, the value of blast radius. Even then sims value blast radius as a very early investment point. So, tldr on that point, if following the guide exactly, blast radius will likely still fall around the realm of using obliterate. I'm sitting at 40% mastery and frostscythe still can't overtake obliterate and runic attenutation. So, the guide is reasonable. 

The increased range on frost strike is really more of a pvp esque trait than anything. The reason for icy talons is it has great synergy with frozen pulse, however if you are far enough away from the enemy your frozen pulse won't hit it either. So, while in theory running a rot or necrotic venom out and still keeping up icy talons has some value, its a situational trait that is weak compared to all the others. As blunt as it sounds, we are a melee class, we should be right on top of boss entire fight. So, it does have niche uses that expert players would take advantage of, but there are other more valuable traits to invest in first.

[Malarick 0]

On 04/10/2016 at 10:58 PM, demonardvark said:

obliteration sims higher but glacial advance practically does more damage and fits the rotation better. The current rotation is denoted as the machine gun rotation for the rapid expendeture of runes, because of the frozen pulse talent we are burning through our rotation super fast. The issue with obliteration is that it requires a bit of resource pooling that is counter productive to the style, in addition it has a rather lengthy cooldown for what ultimately is just 3 guaranteed km procs. Versus GA fits into the rotation nicely, has a short cooldown, and is quite powerful for the invested one rune. 

Thanks for the clarification, now I understand why people said this is a machine gun rotation... it's all because of frozen pulse.

Hmm, I saw it somewhere that the tooltip on Frozen Pulse state that instead of activating while having no full runes at all, it activates while having less than 2/3 runes. I can't remember for sure where I saw this..

[demonardvark 556]

17 minutes ago, Malarick said:

Thanks for the clarification, now I understand why people said this is a machine gun rotation... it's all because of frozen pulse.

Hmm, I saw it somewhere that the tooltip on Frozen Pulse state that instead of activating while having no full runes at all, it activates while having less than 2/3 runes. I can't remember for sure where I saw this..

7.1 patch notes, after patch 7.1 when you have 2 or less runes it will trigger however now it requires 0 full runes to trigger ie in 7.1 we will have A LOT more uptime on frozen pulse and the rotation will become slightly less frantic.

[Azzy 0]

Firstly I appreciate the guides for frost dk/blood dk as I do both, and the actual discussions in the forums have helped me understand things and how to improve my dps tanking ability. Dps wise I went from an average of 160-240 (depending on single target or aoe) to 190-300+ (again depending on st vs aoe). Tanking wise I went from having trouble in a base mythic to doing +5-+6 most instances.

 

However I have a question concerning the frost Machine gun rotation. With the base guide it still suggests FS with a stack of KM, but I would assume after the buffs, and the desire to have runes down as quick as possible Oblit would be more preferred with anything concerning a single target encounter. Is oblit a better option right now? or is it still use FS on KM procs concerning a st encounter.

An additional nuisanced rotation question: For keeping frozen pulse what priority is most important: keeping 3 stacks of icy talons, or spamming GA/HW/FS for the quick rune elimination to keep pulse going?

[demonardvark 556]

3 hours ago, Azzy said:

Firstly I appreciate the guides for frost dk/blood dk as I do both, and the actual discussions in the forums have helped me understand things and how to improve my dps tanking ability. Dps wise I went from an average of 160-240 (depending on single target or aoe) to 190-300+ (again depending on st vs aoe). Tanking wise I went from having trouble in a base mythic to doing +5-+6 most instances.

 

However I have a question concerning the frost Machine gun rotation. With the base guide it still suggests FS with a stack of KM, but I would assume after the buffs, and the desire to have runes down as quick as possible Oblit would be more preferred with anything concerning a single target encounter. Is oblit a better option right now? or is it still use FS on KM procs concerning a st encounter.

An additional nuisanced rotation question: For keeping frozen pulse what priority is most important: keeping 3 stacks of icy talons, or spamming GA/HW/FS for the quick rune elimination to keep pulse going?

There is sadly no agreement on the answer to your question. I personally as a player do favor obliterate vastly over frost scythe for machine gun. In addition that tier runic attenuation is all but mandatory in my opinion because when you have no runes you are able to frost strike more, which is a huge dps increase, and those who have taken it find it is a huge dps increase. I cannot under any circumstances make frost scythe version stronger than obliterate on my personal dks (plural). As noted by you as well, it makes it easier to burn runes plus there is rime synergy. Now, at "high enough' lvls of mastery frostscythe does allegedly begin to overtake obliterate. At mythic gear lvls and 50%+ mastery you may see this but I do not. Even checking logs of top players I see a lot favoring RA over frostscythe. However, many are claiming frostscythe to be superior. However, logs, sims, and basic math really say otherwise. So at this point, run both, stick with whichever one gives your more deeps, for my money i say RA but if FS works for ya, hey roll with it. 

As far as FP priority, I say rune burn takes priority, because once your runes are gone, you are going to be frost strike spamming anyways. With that the backbone of the machinegun style is to have frozen pulse with as much uptime as possible. 

[Alexizonfire 7]

Yep ever since zefyrk's post i have been using his build and never looked back. The dps increase in my case was phenomenal, and the rotation/feel of it is much faster and smoother, love it.

[Azzy 0]

13 hours ago, demonardvark said:

There is sadly no agreement on the answer to your question. I personally as a player do favor obliterate vastly over frost scythe for machine gun. In addition that tier runic attenuation is all but mandatory in my opinion because when you have no runes you are able to frost strike more, which is a huge dps increase, and those who have taken it find it is a huge dps increase. I cannot under any circumstances make frost scythe version stronger than obliterate on my personal dks (plural). As noted by you as well, it makes it easier to burn runes plus there is rime synergy. Now, at "high enough' lvls of mastery frostscythe does allegedly begin to overtake obliterate. At mythic gear lvls and 50%+ mastery you may see this but I do not. Even checking logs of top players I see a lot favoring RA over frostscythe. However, many are claiming frostscythe to be superior. However, logs, sims, and basic math really say otherwise. So at this point, run both, stick with whichever one gives your more deeps, for my money i say RA but if FS works for ya, hey roll with it. 

As far as FP priority, I say rune burn takes priority, because once your runes are gone, you are going to be frost strike spamming anyways. With that the backbone of the machinegun style is to have frozen pulse with as much uptime as possible. 

I was wondering if there was a ruling out. That does alleviate some of my personal "am I maximizing my build " worries. 

 

Another question, do you seem to constantly cap out in single target encounters while running RA? When I do utilize FS for multi target encounters I sometimes have trouble having enough resources to properly keep up 3 stacks of talons. However when I run RA it almost seems impossible not to cap out and waste potential resources just to keep FP going. When 7.1 rolls out if they still have that change go through that changes our requirements for FP, then both of these situations will be somewhat alleviated, but just unsure whether or not my runic power management is off severely. 

[demonardvark 556]

10 hours ago, Azzy said:

I was wondering if there was a ruling out. That does alleviate some of my personal "am I maximizing my build " worries. 

 

Another question, do you seem to constantly cap out in single target encounters while running RA? When I do utilize FS for multi target encounters I sometimes have trouble having enough resources to properly keep up 3 stacks of talons. However when I run RA it almost seems impossible not to cap out and waste potential resources just to keep FP going. When 7.1 rolls out if they still have that change go through that changes our requirements for FP, then both of these situations will be somewhat alleviated, but just unsure whether or not my runic power management is off severely. 

might just be a gear, haste amount thing. when running RA i do get say in a 5 minute fight 1 or 2 times when there is nothing to push, but those instances are really short lived, in them your talon stacks can fall off, however, as long as it happens and a rune is available in like one gcd i don't care, talons is important only because of frozen pulse. so when you have runes you could give two poops if you have it up, it just sort of helps to weave in frost strikes while burning resources, just so once you are out you are only 1 gcd away from 3 stacks for frozen pulse.

now, once 7.1 comes out, i actually see the machine gun rotation becoming more hectic, yes more that's because you will have near 100% uptime on frozen pulse and thus keeping those stacks of talons up is important, so every 2nd or 3rd gcd will need to be a frost strike and then you should (in theory) never be resource capped.

so tldr

now : try stacking more haste

7.1: needs moar frost strike.