Which stat is best for Blood (balance) ?

[Desruc 15]

2 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

even then the more i play around with it the more I think haste is just 100% the most valuable stat for blood now. 

I completely agree!

My biggest concern is crit vs mastery.

And i think the general consensus is that both stats are great, but mastery just falls of later compared to crit.
If you compare the "crude "(^^) math earlier.
 

Crit is chunkier but reduces more.
Mastery is a more safe bet but give lower mitigation values.

[Sniz 60]

On 9/30/2016 at 8:03 AM, demonardvark said:

i call it crude math myself, but it usually works most of the time,

In the end I think you hit the nail on the head with a previous post. There is some ratio of increase were you need to make sure all three stats are in some proper proportion, simply because we are reliant on so many stats. The other thing to, that i thought was wrong initially is some heroic blood dks are getting versa as a strong stat, which may be something else we need to consider too. It takes quite a bit to be effective but again for blood every little bit counts. 

If you download the Mr Robot sim exe it will tell you Versa. When I tried it at least. (Wowhead may as well).  Usually i take Noxxic with a grain of salt and trust Icey, the reason being, Icey interviews actual players.

But yeah, if you get a drop that is an ilvl upgrade with versa on it, i dont think it will hurt you.

The bright side is if there are no clear cut stats, it makes upgrading easier.  On the other hand,  looking for BiS might get tricky.

40 minutes ago, Desruc said:

This is the problem for me with versa..

I can see that it helps both our dmg reduction and slef healing (And damage i guees to some degree).
But from what i have experienced the sheer numbers you need for versa to have any value, mean you have to sacrefice so much else, ultimately costing more then the benefit.

Besides we have nothing that scales with it besides flat number, like haste gives rune regen and crit gives parry AND boneshield absorbtion.

Exactly right.  The artifact weapon is the key imo.  Versa just doesnt have synergy withvwhat a DK is all about. Simcraft does not support Blood yet, so there is no way to be sure, but perhaps versa is strongest when you have none lol, so whatever calculators ppl are using say Versa is valuable.

Anyway, imho even if the calculators say versa/hast are the best stats, how much better could it be than a balanced mastery/haste/crit build that takes your artifact into account?

 

[Sniz 60]

29 minutes ago, Desruc said:

I completely agree!

My biggest concern is crit vs mastery.

And i think the general consensus is that both stats are great, but mastery just falls of later compared to crit.
If you compare the "crude "(^^) math earlier.
 

Crit is chunkier but reduces more.
Mastery is a more safe bet but give lower mitigation values.

I sacrificed a little mastery for more crit this weekend (35mast/20crit) and finished a mythic 4.  Getting the parry to 20%ish is noticible and if you add the 8% damage reduction per crit% artifact dragon, that means you're looking at 40% of boss attacks either mitigated or avoided.  So there is a place for crit/parry.

Ill try and evalate logs this week to get some numbers to hopefully back it up.

What % haste do you recommend?  Im about 22-23% and wondering at what point would resource regen would grant 1 rune per sec.  Ill definately drop some more mast for haste.

[demonardvark 556]

17 minutes ago, Sniz said:

I sacrificed a little mastery for more crit this weekend (35mast/20crit) and finished a mythic 4.  Getting the parry to 20%ish is noticible and if you add the 8% damage reduction per crit% artifact dragon, that means you're looking at 40% of boss attacks either mitigated or avoided.  So there is a place for crit/parry.

Ill try and evalate logs this week to get some numbers to hopefully back it up.

What % haste do you recommend?  Im about 22-23% and wondering at what point would resource regen would grant 1 rune per sec.  Ill definately drop some more mast for haste.

I don't have a hard percentage off the top of my head however, the example i will give us unholy. Soul reaper gives 21% haste which on average puts me between 45-50% haste and the resource regen gets near constant. I think for blood an ideal cap is going to be in the 40-50% range before we see diminishing returns really start to hurt us. I'm sitting at like 23% ish as well and there are so many dead stops in rotation, blood needs near constant action to stay alive, so i think a higher cap is going to be ideal. From that too i think that will likely be first priority. So haste to 40 ish % followed by 70-30 investment into crit-mastery.

[Shells 64]

Best stat by far.........patience!

 

Or haste/crit.......mastery........................................versa

 

I have tried stacking haste to 35% then 45% when boneshield is up and it is nice, really smooths out the rotation alot. However you end up getting smashed around a lot. 

Currently sitting at 30% crit, 23% haste base, and 23% mastery and it feels quite strong. 

I had it at 20% crit, 30% haste and 40% mastery and even with the extra mastery, my blood shield was too weak be worth it. With the extra crit I have alot more parry which is always good. Having the second golden dragon helps alot here ofc. Crit would not be as good without skeletal shattering trait. 

[Sniz 60]

1 hour ago, demonardvark said:

I don't have a hard percentage off the top of my head however, the example i will give us unholy. Soul reaper gives 21% haste which on average puts me between 45-50% haste and the resource regen gets near constant. I think for blood an ideal cap is going to be in the 40-50% range before we see diminishing returns really start to hurt us. I'm sitting at like 23% ish as well and there are so many dead stops in rotation, blood needs near constant action to stay alive, so i think a higher cap is going to be ideal. From that too i think that will likely be first priority. So haste to 40 ish % followed by 70-30 investment into crit-mastery.

Ok, ill play around with some gear at some point this week (replacing peerless with fireflash).

Initially I was thinking 35-40% mastery would be a decent soft floor, but if haste is that strong, dropping mast to 30% wouldnt sacrifice that much.

It may be minutia but always having a DS ready to go (or at least a HS to build RP) would be pretty nice, playability wise.  I asked a clan healer in a mythic 4 what healing me was like and she "good but not great". I think she was more surprised by the question and answered in a "ho hum-nothing different from any other tank" kind of way.  Considering my ilvl was 844 at that point, ill take it.

Anyway, ill throw this out there...traditionally we talk about soft "caps", but with stat stacking simply not an option, maybe the conversation is soft "floors" now. Obviously it depends on how much of the same ilvl gear you have in your bags.

25% Mastery soft "floor"

20% Parry (vis a vis Crit) soft "floor"

Balance/Gemming into Haste. With a soft "cap" of 30%. Filtering excess back into Crit.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Sniz

[Sniz 60]

19 minutes ago, Shells said:

Best stat by far.........patience!

 

Or haste/crit.......mastery........................................versa

 

I have tried stacking haste to 35% then 45% when boneshield is up and it is nice, really smooths out the rotation alot. However you end up getting smashed around a lot. 

Currently sitting at 30% crit, 23% haste base, and 23% mastery and it feels quite strong. 

I had it at 20% crit, 30% haste and 40% mastery and even with the extra mastery, my blood shield was too weak be worth it. With the extra crit I have alot more parry which is always good. Having the second golden dragon helps alot here ofc. Crit would not be as good without skeletal shattering trait. 

This is good insight.

 

I adjusted my previous post because of it. Take a look and let me know what you think.

[demonardvark 556]

30 minutes ago, Sniz said:

25% Mastery soft "floor"

20% Parry (vis a vis Crit) soft "floor"

Balance/Gemming into Haste. With a soft "cap" of 35%. Filtering excess back into Crit/Mastery.

That's it!!!! I think you have hit the nail on the head. All numbers we've run, all calculations done, all play testing. I think you hit the golden ratio :D

\

[Shells 64]

24 minutes ago, Sniz said:

This is good insight.

 

I adjusted my previous post because of it. Take a look and let me know what you think.

My work here (very little) is done

 

I can now retire to play a fire mage, rolls face to left and then right of keyboard........

Tops dps meter.

:)

Edited October 3, 2016 by Shells

[Sniz 60]

4 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

That's it!!!! I think you have hit the nail on the head. All numbers we've run, all calculations done, all play testing. I think you hit the golden ratio :D

\

Haha, cool. Beat the game. Uninstalling.

 

Seriously though, this thread has been great.  Ive just been incorporating everyone's thoughts.

[Sniz 60]

FYI, i just got a source that the hard cap for haste is 40% unbuffed.

 

[Benhoof 3]

4 minutes ago, Sniz said:

FYI, i just got a source that the hard cap for haste is 40% unbuffed.

 

Really, I thought the cap for haste was increased to 100% in legion? Can you give more information on your source?

Also, according to my math, you never want your Mastery Rating - Versatility Rating > 16666

[Sniz 60]

10 minutes ago, Benhoof said:

Really, I thought the cap for haste was increased to 100% in legion? Can you give more information on your source?

Also, according to my math, you never want your Mastery Rating - Versatility Rating > 16666

The source is secret but the math isnt.

 

40% base + 10% bone shield + Lust will get you to 100.

[Benhoof 3]

Lust gives you only 30%. Where are the last 20% coming from?

Edited October 12, 2016 by Benhoof

[Sniz 60]

10 minutes ago, Benhoof said:

Lust gives you only 30%. Where are the last 20% coming from?

Oh...its not additive its a multiplier

1.4*1.1*1.3

[Benhoof 3]

Well, can't argue with that ;-)

[Zilkaz 0]

Hello, so been lurking here for a while and specifically this thread as I'm very interested in what stats we should go for as Blood as there is alot of ppl saying different things, I have slowly been building my haste and have to say I like it more and more, the rotation feels alot better the more haste I get.

Just one question, are these stats recommendation with our without the  10% from bone shield?
also how is my stats looking atm?:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormreaver/Zilkaz/simple

Edited October 14, 2016 by Zilkaz

[Silently 0]

Sorry for not replied in a long time, but I always follow your discussion in this topic. And many thanks for all your suggestion, it make me clear much more before.

Below is my current stat ATM. But I still wonder something, because using Pawn and follow the Stat priority as Icy-Veins suggest (Str > Haste > Crit > els), sometime the Pawn give me that an item without Haste/Crit is better that another (maybe the bonus stat is too much to throw the Haste/Crit away).

Anyone have some ideas about caps for those stats ? How much Has/Crit/Mas are you going to reach ? How much is bood with you ATM ? Willing to listen to your comment.

Btw, trash is much more problem than boss...it's true.

 

 

 

[Aegis 27]

On 10/22/2016 at 4:58 AM, Silently said:

Sorry for not replied in a long time, but I always follow your discussion in this topic. And many thanks for all your suggestion, it make me clear much more before.

Below is my current stat ATM. But I still wonder something, because using Pawn and follow the Stat priority as Icy-Veins suggest (Str > Haste > Crit > els), sometime the Pawn give me that an item without Haste/Crit is better that another (maybe the bonus stat is too much to throw the Haste/Crit away).

Anyone have some ideas about caps for those stats ? How much Has/Crit/Mas are you going to reach ? How much is bood with you ATM ? Willing to listen to your comment.

Btw, trash is much more problem than boss...it's true.

 

 

 

I'm sitting at about 22% crit, 26% haste, and 28% mastery (4% versa, 2% leech), and I just completed a mythic +8 with nary a hitch - ever since I focused on a more crit-heavy build, it's worked wonders for my durability on most fights (noticeable spikes on heimdall in HoV+8, but everything else was easy peasy) 

I'm not sure that there's strictly a cap on most of our stats - for example, on that boss in the arcway that gives us the ridiculous haste buff, I've gotten to 130% haste and its just gravy. 

Looking at higher gearing levels, I'm thinking that eventually, versa will turn out to be very good, but only if you can stack the crap out of it - the interaction seems to favor much higher levels, mathematically (and assuming that you can stack it while maintaining the aforementioned floors of your other stats) 

Edited October 23, 2016 by Aegis

[Silently 0]

Jesus...after patched now the stat for Balanced Blood DK is Haste > Crit > Ver...OMG! Not Mas anymore ?

[Sniz 60]

16 hours ago, Silently said:

Jesus...after patched now the stat for Balanced Blood DK is Haste > Crit > Ver...OMG! Not Mas anymore ?

Not surprising.  It basically a Death strike buff that scales only with stam.  Whereas flat crit/parry/versa mitigation scales with content difficulty.

 

(mastery absorbs the same amount if a boss hits for 200k as it does if the boss hits for 1m; whereas parry, vers and bone shield get better statisticslly speaking)

 

maybe thats why mitigation is the tank stat du jour this ex pac. Idk.

 

 Id still keep 25% mastery though and build vers after that.

[Silently 0]

I wonder where they get those values from ? There must be a standard for them, right ? How can we determine which values is fit ?  

I mean, why we set "Crit = 1.64" but not "Crit = 2.64" or "Crit = 3.0" ? And how to calcaulate them ?

 

[Sniz 60]

9 hours ago, Silently said:

I wonder where they get those values from ? There must be a standard for them, right ? How can we determine which values is fit ?  

I mean, why we set "Crit = 1.64" but not "Crit = 2.64" or "Crit = 3.0" ? And how to calcaulate them ?

 

A standard sim is 10,000 five min boss fights, where a preset optimal rotation is put into place.  The results determine how much dps or mitigation is attributable to each stat.

Your current gear and stats most definately matter.

Back in the day it was much more straightforward.  Reforging helped.  Today, particularly with DKs, the artifact weapon and how stats relate to one another makes matters much more complex.

There is no widely available or personalizable sim data for blood.  The 1 primary factor for this is the variability of the blood rotation and how its self healing works.  Any sim data you do find is from unknown gear with an unknown rotation, so i would take them with a grain of salt.  For example, a top geared DK has tons of stam, tons of strength already and therefore can afford to focus on things like crit/parry to improve dps/full mitigation simply because mastery has its limitations right now.  Does that mean every blood player should start favoring crit and neglect mastery or verse? No way!

Right now the best advice I can give is to focus on stat ratios and tailor them to the content you expect to face.  Just like Aegis showed.  A well balanced DK can get you into M+8, which is really really tough stuff. Focus on that balance right now and wait for your gear to inprove to figure out which stat to "stack".

 

[Silently 0]

On 11/9/2016 at 2:17 PM, Sniz said:

A standard sim is 10,000 five min boss fights, where a preset optimal rotation is put into place.  The results determine how much dps or mitigation is attributable to each stat.

Your current gear and stats most definately matter.

Back in the day it was much more straightforward.  Reforging helped.  Today, particularly with DKs, the artifact weapon and how stats relate to one another makes matters much more complex.

There is no widely available or personalizable sim data for blood.  The 1 primary factor for this is the variability of the blood rotation and how its self healing works.  Any sim data you do find is from unknown gear with an unknown rotation, so i would take them with a grain of salt.  For example, a top geared DK has tons of stam, tons of strength already and therefore can afford to focus on things like crit/parry to improve dps/full mitigation simply because mastery has its limitations right now.  Does that mean every blood player should start favoring crit and neglect mastery or verse? No way!

Right now the best advice I can give is to focus on stat ratios and tailor them to the content you expect to face.  Just like Aegis showed.  A well balanced DK can get you into M+8, which is really really tough stuff. Focus on that balance right now and wait for your gear to inprove to figure out which stat to "stack".

 

that's a good information for me. thanks much.

btw, icy said "Has > Cri => Ver > Mas" but all the WQ reward item is "Crit & Mas" or "Has & Mas"...GG.

[Sniz 60]

25 minutes ago, Silently said:

that's a good information for me. thanks much.

btw, icy said "Has > Cri => Ver > Mas" but all the WQ reward item is "Crit & Mas" or "Has & Mas"...GG.

Its pretty safe to say that haste is the number one stat.  Its not hard to find either.  I think its not wrong to say one should *not* "stack" mastery as well.  Although you will find top tanks wearing a lot of it which confuses people, including myself.  Statistically mastery does not perform well right now but like you said, the sheer amount of it available makes it hard to find upgrades without it.  My best ilvl pieces have mastery and my past 3 M+ weekly chests have dropped mastery for me.

A haste/crit build is definately viable.  So is a haste/vers build and what I put on depends on the content Im facing.

Easier content or trying to push M+ for multiple chests? Go haste/crit.  It depends on you group but the dps of crit helps clear stuff faster. Progressive raid content or difficult M+ to finish, where there is no time issue and I want to max survivability instead, Ill put on haste vers.

In both cases I try and keep my mastery at around 25%.