PROT- Vengeance is still worth having? Why?

[Chrysanthana 0]

I was a little surprised to see Vengeance still the recommended talent on Icey Veins after the nerf. considering the shield slam nerf and the massive lack of rage prot are able to generate in general.

Before the nerf 50% made a 20 Rage ignore pain and a 30 Rage focused rage cost 10/15 Rage respectively , together neting 25 rage , so the talent basically was making you pay 5 rage for a large DPS boost (something tank shouldn't be worry about to begin with). 

Now the numbers are scewed much much high in terms of payment for the DPS boost at 13+19.5-20= 12,5 Rage cost for the DPS boost , keep in mind shield slam also lost 5 rage generation.

12,5 is more then half of an ignore pain so your losing ALOT of mitigation for taking the talent now. Even factoring in the rare Ultimatum dose not make up for it unless you stacking crit (witch no one dose if there serious about tanking).

considering how strong ignore pain is right now and doing the math I cant understand why Vengeance is still the recommended talent on Icey Viens. No the alternatives are not a lot better but at least they dont demand more rage from a class where the generation for rage is extremely small to get benefit. 

Into the fray and booming Voice is a flat bonus without hurting your mitigation and you can still get a DPS boost using these talents by substituting Renewed Fury instead of ultimatum.

So I am really confused here , from a Tanking perspective the maths dont make sense to me that Vengeance is still recommended. To me it feels like its been forced into a PvP Talent (witch is lame)..

[IlyaStepanov 0]

You looking on it from the really wrong direction.

Veng+Ultimatum combo really is the only talent combination that will provide you with more mitigation overall.

Look, even without procs of ult, you can get more than 2 crits of SS in 1min (by usind BtlCry), and that will allow you to cast 2 or more free FR and cheaper IP.

Overall even if you get no crits on SS at all, only by using Battle Cry in 1 SS each 45secs, you will get more "extra" rage than BoomingVoice can provide. ITF doesn’t even worth it in my opinion as haste becomes even less usefull after nerfs of rage gain.

P.S. hope you can understand my bad English.

Edited September 28, 2016 by IlyaStepanov

[Estarriol 167]

With Vengeance as it is now, a full Ip costs 33 rage and a FR costs 19.5 rage. Rounding up,  this makes a full rage IP cost 53 rage total, a savings of 7 rage per ip. This is still a large survivability increase, despite being half of what it was. You shouldn't be using Ip at minimum rage and using that as a basis of comparison for talents' effect on survivability. Furthermore, playing that way is a survivability loss, but one that is due to player error rather than improper talent choice. 

[Allseye 96]

This is a really interesting topic, so i decided to create an account to share my thoughts with you :-).

3 hours ago, IlyaStepanov said:

You looking on it from the really wrong direction.

Veng+Ultimatum combo really is the only talent combination that will provide you with more mitigation overall.

Look, even without procs of ult, you can get more than 2 crits of SS in 1min (by usind BtlCry), and that will allow you to cast 2 or more free FR and cheaper IP.

Overall even if you get no crits on SS at all, only by using Battle Cry in 1 SS each 45secs, you will get more "extra" rage than BoomingVoice can provide. ITF doesn’t even worth it in my opinion as haste becomes even less usefull after nerfs of rage gain.

P.S. hope you can understand my bad English.

I agree with you, also in my opinion it is still the best combination, but just because of the free FR-proc. Why just because of the proc? - Follow the text :-)

 

2 hours ago, Estarriol said:

With Vengeance as it is now, a full Ip costs 33 rage and a FR costs 19.5 rage. Rounding up,  this makes a full rage IP cost 53 rage total, a savings of 7 rage per ip. This is still a large survivability increase, despite being half of what it was. You shouldn't be using Ip at minimum rage and using that as a basis of comparison for talents' effect on survivability. Furthermore, playing that way is a survivability loss, but one that is due to player error rather than improper talent choice. 

I'm not shure if i'm doing something wrong, but in my opinion an full LP costs 39 rage (60*0.65). That means a full IP costs in total 58.5 rage....ending up a 1.5 rage point saving. This is a very very sligth increase. So, if u pop up FR+IP (if u got the 35% buff reduce for FR) under 55 rage, u will "lose" survivability by spending rage into FR. Before the patch, this "magical" boarder was by 30 rage....

So, this is a really hard hit against us as they also reduced the ragegain from SS. If now it's not worth to use FR under 55 rage....the buff for 35% reduce will expire before u reach this 55 rage boarder. Well, we also need the rage for SB, how long will it take to gain 55 rage with using of SB? So, u will just using FR if u have a proc due to a critical SB.

What is your opinion? Did i mess up something in my calucations?

 

[Estarriol 167]

Yes. The expected (and stated) nerf was a 35% reduction down from 50%. However, ip is actually reduced by 45% and FR by 35%. This puts a full combo at 53 rage. 

The nerf to Shield Slam damage is awful, feels awful, and combined with the nerf to intercept makes soloing very, very slow but doesn't really have any bearing on this particular discussion unless you're restricting the discussion to soloing. In which case, your talent choice matters very little. In all other cases, you're getting rage from damage taken.

Yes, it used to be that even if you had no buffs from vengeance and you used a FR+IP combo, you would be net neutral on rage for the amount of shield. Now, that first combo will cost a total of 63 instead of 60. This will still leave you rage positive by the second combo. Am ultimatum proc is, of course, ideal but you don't need to sit there fishing for one.

As for Shield Block, it's cost is still trivial and you should still be maximizing uptime on that. 

[Estarriol 167]

As for how long it will take to get to 53 rage for a full combo, that is definitely something I can't really tell you. If you're in low damaging content where you're not getting rage from damage taken, then that depends very much on procs and you probably don't need full 53 rage combos. In content where you ate being rage from damage taken, it depends on how much damage you're taking and how geared you are. 

[Allseye 96]

Thanks for your reply. I didnt know that IP is reduced to 45%, the discription ingame says 35%. That explains, why it felt not that hard in my hero raid today. I still got enough rage to use FR+IP properly :-). Only if i was off-tanking, i really recognized that there is much less rage than before.

So that means now, that the "rage-boarder" to use FR is around 45. Still 50% higher than before, but it feels ok :-).

[Chrysanthana 0]

I think you are all miss understanding me let me lay down my MAth once more I am only focusing on the skills used in vengeance. Im looking at this from a TANKING perspective , not a DPS one.

ITF + Renewed Fury allows you to have a rotation free of focused rage completely.

Maths:

Only 20 Rage for Ignore Pain ALWAYs

Vengeance+Ultimatum will ALWAYS cost more rage total no matter what because you using focused rage , you only save rage when ultimatum procs and it dosnt proc enough to be worth it in the long run.

Ultimatum Vengenace proced chance = around 10% + (100% for 2 rotations every min)

0 Focus Rage + 13 Ignore Pain = 13 Rage < This is great except the frequency of it happening is so low that 'ANY OTHER TIME' eats it efficiency away almost instantly.

ANY OTHER TIME

19,5 Focused rage + 13 IP  = 32.5 Rage per rotation!!

So instead of using another valuable IP that STACKS and renews on use you using a near equal amount of rage that could be used on another IP to make you next IP 13 Rage instead of 20. Every rotation you losing 12,5 rage to get the focused rage dps boost. Thats HALF IS AN IGNORE PAIN!!! PER ROTATION You are being a shittyer tank for dps with vengeance and using it only when ultimatum procs makes no sence to me when you could use ITF and booming voice with renewed fury and still get a dps boost without having to rely on the RNG of you 10-15% crit chance. (where you getting absolutely no bonus when Ultimatum isnt proced)

Edited September 28, 2016 by Chrysanthana

[Allseye 96]

Oh, i think we really do understand what u mean :-). I think ur question has been answered above. I try to simplify it:

Don't use FR under a certain rage-level (as i mentioned above, atm its around 45 rage). If you do, i agree ur problem with using ue rage in a wrong way (in case of survivability). With 45 rage or higher, u should use FR before using IP, because u'll save rage - of course just if u have the 35% reduce-buff running (Estarriol explained it well with en example of a full IP).

So your assumption of the rotation is just an exemple how u shouldn't handle FR and IP together. Does this answer your question, why venegace and is still having worth it?

 

[Chrysanthana 0]

2 hours ago, Allseye said:

Oh, i think we really do understand what u mean :-). I think ur question has been answered above. I try to simplify it:

Don't use FR under a certain rage-level (as i mentioned above, atm its around 45 rage). If you do, i agree ur problem with using ue rage in a wrong way (in case of survivability). With 45 rage or higher, u should use FR before using IP, because u'll save rage - of course just if u have the 35% reduce-buff running (Estarriol explained it well with en example of a full IP).

So your assumption of the rotation is just an exemple how u shouldn't handle FR and IP together. Does this answer your question, why venegace and is still having worth it?

 

No because why would you ever not use Ignore Pain on cool down as a Main tank , you should never actually HAVE 45 rage , that makes no sense. If you dont ever reach that rage thresh hold how is the talent usefull outside of Ultimatum. Because of how Ignore pain stacks on itself AND renews itself I dont see any time while tanking where you wouldnt want to use a 20 rage IP on cooldown.

 

Ontop of this if you do wait that long to cycles , yay you save 2 rage , this dosnt change the fact that your total mitigation is STILL lower. You have spend 43 rage for 1 FR and 1 IP

Iv spend 40 rage in the same senerio and gotten TWO+  worth of IP's (one 45 rage IP) 

Even after that it dosnt get any better , FR is = to one IP no matter what your paying massive rage prices for the Damage boost and it is ruining your mitigation.

The only way I see Vengeance as being 100% beneficial now without hurting your Mitigation is if you only use it with with ultimatum procs. And if you do that its benefits are questionable when compared to Into the fray / booming voice + renewed fury (a 10% flat dmg buff that will ALWAYS be on me with my rotation because all of your rage is going into keeping IP as high as possible with infinite up time)

What Blizz needs to do is make ultimatum proc on Devastate and not shield slam that would make the vengeance ultimatum rotation feel more fluid and rewarding as youd be able to stack and use Vengeance multiple times and save up really meaty slams.

And on a final note if Vengeance ultimatum is still more damage then the other choices (i have not run ANY numbers) when only using vengeance with ultimatum then that is the answer to my question. Other wise I see 0 reason to keep Vengeance ultimatum .

Alternatively if the combo saves more then 50 rage per 90 sec its better then booming voice. that being said booming voice has a legendary that would instantly make booming voice better then vengeance with its cooldown reduction passive. In my Mini tests on the dummy I was never able to get more then a 6 of the 7 shield slam crits needed (in 90 sec) to make it better then booming voice in the rage saving department (this of course is extremely RNG because of shield slam resets and crit chance variables).

Edited September 29, 2016 by Chrysanthana

[Allseye 96]

I havent read the whole text, but i think u have a biiig missunderstandig how IP works. I'll read the whole text a bit later. But fot the moment i would recommend that u have a short look how the dmg-absorb of IP is calculated (its based how much rage you use and not a fix value!). Maybe that will help to understand why u should not use IP on low rage (if not necessary) :-)

[Estarriol 167]

Your misunderstanding is that you think a 20 rage IP is a full IP.  It is not. It scales linearly with the amount of rage used. A 60 rage IP is 3x the size of a 20 rage IP. You would have to spam three 20 rage IPs to equal the amount of mitigation given in a single cast of a 60 rage IP. 

With Vengeance a full size and rage cost IP costs 33 rage. This 33 rage IP is equivalent to a 60 rage IP without the talent (or simply without the buff). Vengeance makes FR cost less as well. 19.5 rage, rounded up. To use a full rage IP and be ready to cast another, you use a combo with IP and FR.  This combo costs 53 rage and gives you an IP exactly equivalent in size to a 60 rage IP without the talent. This saves you 7 rage per combo. It also gives you a FR stack. 

If you are just spamming minimum size IPs, you are doing it wrong. They need to be maximum size in order to maximize the benefit of Vengeance. The other two talents do not even compare to the rage savings provided by Vengeance. 

[Allseye 96]

Well explained estarriol :-). 

If we really save more than 50 rage per 90s...this is something i can't answer. I could write a short simulation, but that would be very hypothetically. And yes, probably booming voice will be a very interesting option with a cd-reduction of demoralizing shout. But keep in mind, perhaps its not a good idea to use demo-shout on cd while there is no big dmg incoming...i prefer to use that spell as a dmg-reduction-cd to prevent high peaks.

My advice if you play with vengeance and ulti:

- try to use full IP's in combination with a FR (that means u need more 53 or more rage)

- dont use FR while u're under 45 rage

- if u have to use IP while u have more than 45 rage, use FR before

I use the addon "tellmewhen" to track that. Of course there are some other points i personally recommend to keep an eye on...but i'm not the pro in here :-D

[Estarriol 167]

In hard-hitting content, you absolutely save more than 50 rage in a 90s period. All it takes is 7 combos to save 49 rage, which is trivial in difficult content. Further, the rage on Demo Shout use means the rage is coming at a awkward time. You already have the damage reduction from the use of the CD and it leaves you with no benefit for the rest of the time the ability is cooling off. It makes Demo Shout more of an "oh,  shit" button, but not by much and with good play, you really shouldn't need one. Compared to Vengeance, which benefits you the entire length of the fight, Booming Voice  just doesn't have all that much to offer outside of the rather nice burst damage factor or niche situations, like Cenarius' Spear. 

[Chrysanthana 0]

-

Edited September 29, 2016 by Chrysanthana

[Chrysanthana 0]

10 hours ago, Estarriol said:

Your misunderstanding is that you think a 20 rage IP is a full IP.  It is not. It scales linearly with the amount of rage used. A 60 rage IP is 3x the size of a 20 rage IP. You would have to spam three 20 rage IPs to equal the amount of mitigation given in a single cast of a 60 rage IP. 

With Vengeance a full size and rage cost IP costs 33 rage. This 33 rage IP is equivalent to a 60 rage IP without the talent (or simply without the buff). Vengeance makes FR cost less as well. 19.5 rage, rounded up. To use a full rage IP and be ready to cast another, you use a combo with IP and FR.  This combo costs 53 rage and gives you an IP exactly equivalent in size to a 60 rage IP without the talent. This saves you 7 rage per combo. It also gives you a FR stack. 

If you are just spamming minimum size IPs, you are doing it wrong. They need to be maximum size in order to maximize the benefit of Vengeance. The other two talents do not even compare to the rage savings provided by Vengeance. 

i understand better now , but do you really cycle the combo enough to make more then 50 rage every 90 sec

 

And where are you geting the number 33?

35%= 39 not 33

The tooltip is saying 39 when vengeance is active.

Vengance is stating 35% for IP not 45%

Edited September 29, 2016 by Chrysanthana

[Estarriol 167]

8 minutes ago, Chrysanthana said:

And where are you geting the number 33?

35%= 39 not 33

I stated this earlier in the thread. See below. I've quoted the relevant portion.

On 9/28/2016 at 3:49 PM, Estarriol said:

Yes. The expected (and stated) nerf was a 35% reduction down from 50%. However, ip is actually reduced by 45% and FR by 35%. This puts a full combo at 53 rage.

 

9 minutes ago, Chrysanthana said:

i understand better now , but do you really cycle the combo enough to make more then 50 rage every 90 sec

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hkZG2Kf6Aq3aygpJ#type=resources&source=12&spell=101&fight=24

This is a link to one of my mythic Elerethe attempts. Over a 4:37 fight, I gained a total of 1750 rage, which is an average of 6.32 rage per second.  Thus, over the course of an average 90 time stamp, I gained 568.59 rage. Divide this by 53 rage for a combo leaves me with 10.73 combos in an average 90 time period. Since each combo saves 7 rage, these 10.73 combos saved me 75.10 rage on average over 90 seconds.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wTbnZkRqWAQFmXcj#fight=20&type=resources&source=22&spell=101

This is a link to my heroic Xavius kill from Tuesday. Over the course of the 6:28 second fight, I generated 3828 rage, which averages to 9.87 rage per second. This is an average of 887.94 rage per 90 second window. This allows for 16.75 combos and saves 117.27 rage per 90 second window.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wTbnZkRqWAQFmXcj#fight=18&type=resources&source=22&spell=101

This is heroic Cenarius. 1889 total rage over 4:47, which is 6.58 rage per second, 592.37 per 90 seconds, which is 11.18 combos, and saved 78.24 rage per 90 seconds on average.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wTbnZkRqWAQFmXcj#fight=16&type=resources&source=22&spell=101

Heroic Elerethe. 2375 rage total over 4:59, so 7.94 average rage per second, 714.88 rage per 90 seconds, 13.49 combos, 94.42 rage saved per an average 90 time period.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wTbnZkRqWAQFmXcj#fight=14&type=resources&source=22&spell=101

Heroic Dragons of Nightmare. 1336 total rage, 5.06 RPS,  455 per 90 seconds, 8.59 combos, and 60.15 savings.

 

I'm going to end this exercise here, but as you can see, in realistic tanking environments, getting more than 7 combos per 90 second period is far from unrealistic. Also keep in mind that my gear is fairly good and therefore I do generate less rage from damage taken than someone less geared would.

[Chrysanthana 0]

Ok and assuming 45% is a bug and not intended is it still viable at 35% , if so what changes?

Wouldnt this rage building style make Never Surrender Stronger then Indomitable?

Also in closing id just like to mention how badly the prot guide teaches correct usage of Vengeance.. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by Chrysanthana

[Allseye 96]

Keep also in mind, that when u use veng. & ulti, u have the free FR, which saves a lot of rage. So if this is just a bug...i still think this combo saves you more than 50 rage per 90s...as a wrote in my first post :-)

[Allseye 96]

15 hours ago, Chrysanthana said:

Ok and assuming 45% is a bug and not intended is it still viable at 35% , if so what changes?

Wouldnt this rage building style make Never Surrender Stronger then Indomitable?

Keep also in mind, that when u use veng. & ulti, u have the free FR, which saves a lot of rage. So if is just a bug...i still think this combo saves you mire than 50 rage per 90s.

Never surrender will give you a stronger absorb, if u're on low health. So basically it has nothing to do with "this rage building stile". Have a look on this guide on icy veins, there is a brief explanation in which situation never surrender is a shiny choice.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/protection-warrior-pve-tank-spec-builds-talents

Edited September 30, 2016 by Allseye

[Chrysanthana 0]

So Im using the right rotation now , although I find my Ignore pain droping off before its all being used , shoudl i be sacrificing rage and using ingore pain and maintaining it or leting it drop off and casting a new full power ignore pain?

[Allseye 96]

That happens generally when your ragegain is to low. In my heroic-raid i already did, that was not a problem. In solo-play or mythic-dungeons, this problem will occur with increasing your gear.

I allow myself to quote a part of a past post:

On ‎29‎.‎09‎.‎2016 at 6:12 PM, Allseye said:

I use the addon "tellmewhen" to track that. Of course there are some other points i personally recommend to keep an eye on...but i'm not the pro in here :-D

That's exactlly one point i PERSONALLY recommend to keep an eye on. If u really wanna optimize it, you should have a look how strong u're stacked-IP already is (i don't do that, because that would be to many information to track). I'm just checking if IP is already up...and i always try to maintain it. That means, that i will not use a full IP, if my running IP is at 1.5s. Specially if u find yourself offtanking, u should try to stack IP as high as possible...and you won't have enough rage to use full IP's.

I quote my self again:

On ‎29‎.‎09‎.‎2016 at 6:12 PM, Allseye said:

My advice if you play with vengeance and ulti:

- try to use full IP's in combination with a FR (that means u need more 53 or more rage)

- dont use FR while u're under 45 rage

- if u have to use IP while u have more than 45 rage, use FR before

This is the "decision-tree" i do. Again, this is not a approved statement, it's just i PERSONALLY handle it with my experience :-)

[Chrysanthana 0]

Why do you not use FR untill 45 instead of 33 rage?

 

[Allseye 96]

Math, again quoting a part of myself:

On ‎29‎.‎09‎.‎2016 at 11:29 AM, Allseye said:

Oh, i think we really do understand what u mean :-). I think ur question has been answered above. I try to simplify it:

Don't use FR under a certain rage-level (as i mentioned above, atm its around 45 rage). If you do, i agree ur problem with using ue rage in a wrong way (in case of survivability). With 45 rage or higher, u should use FR before using IP, because u'll save rage - of course just if u have the 35% reduce-buff running (Estarriol explained it well with en example of a full IP).

 

With the rage-reduce-buff, FR does u cost 19.5 rage (0.65*30), so lets say 20. Well now u can calulate at which rage-lvl u will save 20 rage with the buff to reduce your IP cost. If i do, u'll get a rage-lvl around 45 (45*0.45=20.25).

[digitalzomb 0]

On 10/2/2016 at 6:32 AM, Allseye said:

That happens generally when your ragegain is to low. In my heroic-raid i already did, that was not a problem. In solo-play or mythic-dungeons, this problem will occur with increasing your gear.

I allow myself to quote a part of a past post:

That's exactlly one point i PERSONALLY recommend to keep an eye on. If u really wanna optimize it, you should have a look how strong u're stacked-IP already is (i don't do that, because that would be to many information to track). I'm just checking if IP is already up...and i always try to maintain it. That means, that i will not use a full IP, if my running IP is at 1.5s. Specially if u find yourself offtanking, u should try to stack IP as high as possible...and you won't have enough rage to use full IP's.

I quote my self again:

This is the "decision-tree" i do. Again, this is not a approved statement, it's just i PERSONALLY handle it with my experience :-)

So question on this decision tree... does the 45 rage before IP apply to using FR without the rage reduction? Or are you saying don't use FR under 45 rage only if you have the rage reduction?