Why does Askmrrobot want me to use Versatility while Icy Veins suggests Haste?

[Mioline 0]

I've been stacking haste and two days ago I started using Askmrrobot but it tells me to use Versatility. It stops me at 20% haste which is the soft cap if I understand correctly, so is Askmrrobot correct or should I be stacking haste still?

 

I just got a Titanforged Mythic 5 necklace with Versatility/Mastery while the one I have been using is 15 item levels below with Haste/Versatility so now I'm pretty torn.

 

Edit: Forgot to mention I am talking about Blood!

Edited October 4, 2016 by Mioline

[demonardvark 556]

14 minutes ago, Mioline said:

I've been stacking haste and two days ago I started using Askmrrobot but it tells me to use Versatility. It stops me at 20% haste which is the soft cap if I understand correctly, so is Askmrrobot correct or should I be stacking haste still?

 

I just got a Titanforged Mythic 5 necklace with Versatility/Mastery while the one I have been using is 15 item levels below with Haste/Versatility so now I'm pretty torn.

what spec are you referring to? from the sounds of it im guessing blood? ask mr robot really seems to like versatility for blood, it requires such a high investment for such little pay off its not recommended. if you tell me your spec of interest i can elaborate further :D

[Mioline 0]

Just now, demonardvark said:

what spec are you referring to? from the sounds of it im guessing blood? ask mr robot really seems to like versatility for blood, it requires such a high investment for such little pay off its not recommended. if you tell me your spec of interest i can elaborate further :D

Whoops, forgot to mention I am indeed talking about Blood. Please do elaborate!

[demonardvark 556]

2 minutes ago, Mioline said:

Whoops, forgot to mention I am indeed talking about Blood. Please do elaborate!

so blood is in an odd place right now and is the sole inhabitant of what i am calling stat hell. The simplest answer is there is no stack one stat and GG method for blood DK. you need a little bit of everything in order to function properly. There has been a lot of discussion on this board and the current agreed upon standing is

25% Mastery soft "floor"

20% Parry (vis a vis Crit) soft "floor"

Balance/Gemming into Haste. With a soft "cap" of 35%. Filtering excess back into Crit/Mastery.

The reasoning is certain stats have diminishing returns ie the value invested no longer has a strong pay out. So, the goal stat to more heavily invest in is haste however you need enough mastery and parry/crit.

So the necklace you reference has mastery/versa, if it pushes your master to around 25% or higher go with it, the haste loss may be bad it just depends on your current stats. Once you are around 25% mastery and 20% parry (with the help of crit) you dump everything into haste until 35% ish, and then top off the rest.

So you need everything (except versatility really) as blood dk. So you have to look at your stats between the two neck pieces. If the higher ilvl one gives you a more substantial amount of mastery take that one, if your haste takes a big hit like more than 3ish% I might pass on it.

So for dks 20% haste is considered the soft cap, for blood its much higher. Haste is really the most raw important stat but you still need a fair amount of mastery and crit. 

clear as mud right? 

[Mioline 0]

8 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

so blood is in an odd place right now and is the sole inhabitant of what i am calling stat hell. The simplest answer is there is no stack one stat and GG method for blood DK. you need a little bit of everything in order to function properly. There has been a lot of discussion on this board and the current agreed upon standing is

25% Mastery soft "floor"

20% Parry (vis a vis Crit) soft "floor"

Balance/Gemming into Haste. With a soft "cap" of 35%. Filtering excess back into Crit/Mastery.

The reasoning is certain stats have diminishing returns ie the value invested no longer has a strong pay out. So, the goal stat to more heavily invest in is haste however you need enough mastery and parry/crit.

So the necklace you reference has mastery/versa, if it pushes your master to around 25% or higher go with it, the haste loss may be bad it just depends on your current stats. Once you are around 25% mastery and 20% parry (with the help of crit) you dump everything into haste until 35% ish, and then top off the rest.

So you need everything (except versatility really) as blood dk. So you have to look at your stats between the two neck pieces. If the higher ilvl one gives you a more substantial amount of mastery take that one, if your haste takes a big hit like more than 3ish% I might pass on it.

So for dks 20% haste is considered the soft cap, for blood its much higher. Haste is really the most raw important stat but you still need a fair amount of mastery and crit. 

clear as mud right? 

I think I get it.

So at 29% Mastery, 22% Haste, and 14% Crit, am I maybe lacking in Crit? I gem and enchant for Haste.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kelthuzad/Mioline/simple

Edited October 4, 2016 by Mioline

[demonardvark 556]

24 minutes ago, Mioline said:

I think I get it.

So at 29% Mastery, 22% Haste, and 14% Crit, am I maybe lacking in Crit? I gem and enchant for Haste.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kelthuzad/Mioline/simple

yeah you want a bit more crit, your parry is sitting at 17.62% so you are close to soft floor, I'd say be on the look out for crit gear but continue to gem for haste :)

As far as which neck to equip your mastery one will put you a bit higher mastery then you might want. However, if it has a lot more stamina you'll want to prefer that over everything. 

[Mioline 0]

14 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

yeah you want a bit more crit, your parry is sitting at 17.62% so you are close to soft floor, I'd say be on the look out for crit gear but continue to gem for haste :)

As far as which neck to equip your mastery one will put you a bit higher mastery then you might want. However, if it has a lot more stamina you'll want to prefer that over everything. 

So I should try to shoot for 20% Haste (at least), 20% Parry, and 25% Mastery? I have a ton of excess Mastery.

I'm going to try to replace the Versatility trinket with the Str/Crit trinket from Halls of Valor (Hunger of the Pack) and see where that brings me.

I also have an 860 Mastery/Versatility ring which blows everything else out of the water as far as ilevel and stamina. So it's the same case as my new neck (164 more stam than my old neck while dropping Haste, and my DPS neck has Crit/Haste as the same stamina as the other neck- both are 850).

Edited October 4, 2016 by Mioline

[Phenomena 2]

I've been following these stats discussions along time and I'm still feel very confused what to make of it all. It was alot easier before when you just could pump everything into mastery. I am now thinking from a pure tank perspective and ignoring your damage output.

These are my thoughts:

Translating stats crit vs. vers.

1% Crit translates to 0,5% parry. RNG mitigation (artifact trait/talent interaction rng mitigation)

1% Vers translates to 1,0% healing done + 0,5% damage reduction. Reliable mitigation (no artifact trait/ talent interaction)

In my book isn't vers a bad stat at all as it provides a reliable mitigation.

I'm now running:

• 23% crit
• 20,5% haste
• 32,5% mastery
• 3% vers

I'm aiming at dumping some mastery in favor for vers.

Ilvl will always matter as it provides more stamina/str only time it's up for valudation is at a 5 ilvl upgrade.

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Phenomena

[demonardvark 556]

1 hour ago, Phenomena said:

I've been following these stats discussions along time and I'm still feel very confused what to make of it all. It was alot easier before when you just could pump everything into mastery. I am now thinking from a pure tank perspective and ignoring your damage output.

These are my thoughts:

Translating stats crit vs. vers.

1% Crit translates to 0,5% parry. RNG mitigation (artifact trait/talent interaction rng mitigation)

1% Vers translates to 1,0% healing done + 0,5% damage reduction. Reliable mitigation (no artifact trait/ talent interaction)

In my book isn't vers a bad stat at all as it provides a reliable mitigation.

I'm now running:

• 23% crit
• 20,5% haste
• 32,5% mastery
• 3% vers

I'm aiming at dumping some mastery in favor for vers.

Ilvl will always matter as it provides more stamina/str only time it's up for valudation is at a 5 ilvl upgrade.

 

the post numbers are for raw survival. the tanks doing the theory work all are pushing mythic content, at that point your blood shields get shredded immediately, this is not mop anymore where you just stack mastery till your eyes bleed, at the highest end just for raw survival you need a general range of stats as previously noted. the issue with versatility is that it requires A LOT of stat investment for a weak payout, I'd type out all the math but its frankly easier for me to just post the link. so if you are interested to see all the calculations and that you want to go here

However, the short is versatility is a far too expensive investement, with little payout, and no talent or trait synergy.

[demonardvark 556]

17 hours ago, Mioline said:

So I should try to shoot for 20% Haste (at least), 20% Parry, and 25% Mastery? I have a ton of excess Mastery.

I'm going to try to replace the Versatility trinket with the Str/Crit trinket from Halls of Valor (Hunger of the Pack) and see where that brings me.

I also have an 860 Mastery/Versatility ring which blows everything else out of the water as far as ilevel and stamina. So it's the same case as my new neck (164 more stam than my old neck while dropping Haste, and my DPS neck has Crit/Haste as the same stamina as the other neck- both are 850).

yeah that's a pretty good starting ground, once you hit that, then you want to focus the rest of your efforts into haste, from there once you hit 35% you can start putting a little more into crit/mastery, there are diminishing returns but by that point you should be solid and every little extra bit will help out :D

[Sniz 60]

Haha yeah its a mess...

Im not going to say mr robot is "wrong", but simcraft is still working on their blood calculations so i think its a bit more complicated.

(example in WoD, mr robot would tell me my mage needs crit. So id gem crit. Then id run the sim and it would tell me I need Haste.  Soooo.)

your stats are very very similiar to mine actually.  There is just a lot of mastery gear out there. Moreover we are all still "gearing up" so to speak.

What it basically boils down to is your going to want to keep your competitive ilvl gear with alternate stats and build a crafted set to supplement it so when you get that titanforged drop with mast/versa, you can replace something else that has mastery with fireflash.

Dont drop your best pieces, just move stuff around to accommodate them and let us know.  Blood is about "player feel" and avoiding DRs right now, it seems.

Im trying not to think about BiS...for my mental health

Edited October 5, 2016 by Sniz

[Sniz 60]

As far as haste is concerned, for blood, its essentially your stats +10%.  I dont think our gear at this stage of the xpac is good enough to reeeaally be concerned about capping it yet.

Somewhere out there is a haste % hard cap (which is the 1 sec GCD) and a soft cap where the star reward gives it DRs making other stats more viable.  

But for practical purposes, i think all you really need is the ability to hit two DS's in a row between Boss attacks to take advantage of the Maw trait.

I went for the 8% mitigation per crit% dragon first, so im happy going crit heavy.  Im hoping by the time i get the leach trait ill have the haste to take advantage.

so i guess what im trying to say is depending on your trait selections, leaning that way stats wise might be a thought to consider. 

[Desruc 15]

15 hours ago, Sniz said:

But for practical purposes, i think all you really need is the ability to hit two DS's in a row between Boss attacks to take advantage of the Maw trait.

This is why i wonder why so many artifact paths take this over the crit mitigation...
well maybe on lower content its better but goddamn in mythix+ or hc raids getting that leech of is no easy task xD

[Zataron 5]

On 5.10.2016 at 0:48 PM, demonardvark said:

However, the short is versatility is a far too expensive investement, with little payout, and no talent or trait synergy.

I would agree with this. However, the blood guide on icy veins was updated 2 days ago to move versatility into 2nd place in the stat priority (for survivability at least). I'm very sceptic about this, especially since most other guides seem to value versatility a lot less. Anyone know why the writer of icy vein's blood guide suddenly thinks that versatility is a good stat?

Also, could you explain why Mastery has a soft floor at 25%? As far as I can tell, it doesn't have any diminishing returns for higher values.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Zataron

[demonardvark 556]

37 minutes ago, Zataron said:

I would agree with this. However, the blood guide on icy veins was updated 2 days ago to move versatility into 2nd place in the stat priority (for survivability at least). I'm very sceptic about this, especially since most other guides seem to value versatility a lot less. Anyone know why the writer of icy vein's blood guide suddenly thinks that versatility is a good stat?

Also, could you explain why Mastery has a soft floor at 25%? As far as I can tell, it doesn't have any diminishing returns for higher values.

As far as mastery note the new terminology floor, that's not the same as cap, that means a basic standing ground. That's saying you want 25% minimum to begin with. Mythic blood tanking requires a lot of stats to make rotation work, so there are minimum amounts ie floors needed before you can have a decent chance of survival.

As far as the choice to list versatility as number 2 stat for survival, I can follow the logic. It's for the easiest simple way to play the spec. However, it requires such a huge investment for questionable pay off. 50% versatility only gets you 25% damage reduction. However, that is a decent amount. Plus by default you will be getting other stats on your gear as well. So, i imagine that survival choice with versatility was to denote the most simple and straightforward way to survive. Frankly, I don't think its enough for realistic tanking, however, with a decent healer and a semi knowledge of the spec, you would be able to "survive" using that build. 

ie stacking versatility = survive not thrive. 

[Sniz 60]

3 hours ago, Desruc said:

This is why i wonder why so many artifact paths take this over the crit mitigation...
well maybe on lower content its better but goddamn in mythix+ or hc raids getting that leech of is no easy task xD

Yeah, its useless for trash packs, especially in mythic+.  It really is an advanced talent for a well geared blood DK, imho, and an ability thats suited for boss fights.  

It requires not only the haste to get 2 swings in quickly, but the presence of mind to be aware of boss timers and attack frequency in order to store up RP.

It has potential though.

A decently geared, flasked DK with 7-10 bones will easily get 350,000+ heals from DS, times that by 2, add the boosted damage (on the second DS) and the leach.  You might be able to heal up 1million or more (depending on how much damage you took in 5 seconds).

[Desruc 15]

2 minutes ago, Sniz said:

Yeah, its useless for trash packs, especially in mythic+.  It really is an advanced talent for a well geared blood DK, imho, and an ability thats suited for boss fights.  

It requires not only the haste to get 2 swings in quickly, but the presence of mind to be aware of boss timers and attack frequency in order to store up RP.

It has potential though.

A decently geared, flasked DK with 7-10 bones will easily get 350,000+ heals from DS, times that by 2, add the boosted damage (on the second DS) and the leach.  You might be able to heal up 1million or more (depending on how much damage you took in 5 seconds).

Even so that might be between swing.. but theres usually alot of other shit happening, random raid ae dmg, dots and what not.
So even doing 2 swings right after and attack will often not be fast enough. GCD kinda messes with you, can it requires you to be hovering at 60% health to utilize the full amount of the heal.

Maybe not so dangerous, but still hard to pull off, esp if healers are ontop of it.

[Shells 64]

IF the shield was alot stronger, not to soak a boss attack, but strong enough to take the brunt of an aoe or the likes you might be able to get 2of them off to get the leech effect in use. 

In reality, its nearly impossible to get it to work for any length of time, which is a pity as its currently really weak. 

 

A simple fix would be, if your healing from DS is going to be overheal, have it converted to the shield instead. DH get (with a talent) a hot from their self healing.  This could be interesting if mastery got a decent buff. 

[Sniz 60]

1 hour ago, demonardvark said:

As far as mastery note the new terminology floor, that's not the same as cap, that means a basic standing ground. That's saying you want 25% minimum to begin with. Mythic blood tanking requires a lot of stats to make rotation work, so there are minimum amounts ie floors needed before you can have a decent chance of survival.

As far as the choice to list versatility as number 2 stat for survival, I can follow the logic. It's for the easiest simple way to play the spec. However, it requires such a huge investment for questionable pay off. 50% versatility only gets you 25% damage reduction. However, that is a decent amount. Plus by default you will be getting other stats on your gear as well. So, i imagine that survival choice with versatility was to denote the most simple and straightforward way to survive. Frankly, I don't think its enough for realistic tanking, however, with a decent healer and a semi knowledge of the spec, you would be able to "survive" using that build. 

ie stacking versatility = survive not thrive. 

I agree.  It might be parsing well in sims because most blood dks dont keep that much of it on their gear.  It may simply be out-scaling the other stats. 

I certainly wouldnt shy away from it if its on an ilvl upgrade, but im also not going to start stacking it either.

Especially considering mythic+ where tank DPS is a factor.

Imo, what makes Blood an interesting class is its interactiveness with the encounter.  If you are just standing there getting wailed on, like a *cough* guardian druid, vers is going to be your best stat.  But its the DKs ablities, use, timing, and the wherewithal to balance your other stats to accomodate that make the class what it is.

That being said i got a 850 Goblet of Nightmarish Ichor last night Strength/Verse trinket. 3300 verse with a 24% uptime.  No way that's a shard.

[Sniz 60]

43 minutes ago, Desruc said:

Even so that might be between swing.. but theres usually alot of other shit happening, random raid ae dmg, dots and what not.
So even doing 2 swings right after and attack will often not be fast enough. GCD kinda messes with you, can it requires you to be hovering at 60% health to utilize the full amount of the heal.

Maybe not so dangerous, but still hard to pull off, esp if healers are ontop of it.

Im on the same page as you. I think this trait is overrated because blood shield is so weak. I mean ursoc melees for 3-4x the amount of a 25% mastery blood shield.  It ridiculous.

The silver lining is it *may* have a small window of utility in a minority of boss fights.

For example, a boss with a massive non-physical aoe and a slow melee.  Or healing up after a cleave in an off-tank situation.  Or as a post-taunt switch pick me up.  (If you havent already used up RP).

42 minutes ago, Shells said:

IF the shield was alot stronger, not to soak a boss attack, but strong enough to take the brunt of an aoe or the likes you might be able to get 2of them off to get the leech effect in use. 

In reality, its nearly impossible to get it to work for any length of time, which is a pity as its currently really weak. 

 

A simple fix would be, if your healing from DS is going to be overheal, have it converted to the shield instead. DH get (with a talent) a hot from their self healing.  This could be interesting if mastery got a decent buff. 

That would be nice or maybe a max RP regenerator cooldown.  That would synergize with the trait i think.

[Shells 64]

Blood is in an interesting place right now, it has its own unique strenghts but overall it has been weakend by the nerfs to BB and BoneShield and its slightly weak in general. 

If the proposed dps reduction due for 7.1, a -10% overall dps comes in without any buffs at all, we start to look alot less useful for mythic + and raids in general. 

Which is a pity as we are awesome and much more interesting to play than the other classes :)

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Shells

[demonardvark 556]

1 minute ago, Shells said:

Blood is in an interesting place right now, it has its own unique strenghts but overall it has been weakend by the nerfs to BB and BoneShield and its slightly weak in general. 

If the proposed dps reduction due for 7.1, a -10% overall dps comes in without any buffs at all, we start to look alot less useful for mythic + and raids in general. 

Which is a pity as we are awesome and much more interesting to play than the other classes :)

 

yes and no we need to see the climate, come 7.1 warrior is getting big nerf, IP is getting smacked hard. As far as mythic + goes a few healers I know prefer talented DK's over anything else. Now mythic raid dps wise DK is a bit questionable there.

[Shells 64]

13 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

yes and no we need to see the climate, come 7.1 warrior is getting big nerf, IP is getting smacked hard. As far as mythic + goes a few healers I know prefer talented DK's over anything else. Now mythic raid dps wise DK is a bit questionable there.

Hard to call. 

From my pov I get trucked more in Mythic plus with the trash than with the boss. The boss fights are alot more controlled.  Keeping aggro is not any issue, its surviving the mobs attention :)  . Probably need to use more CC and the likes but its odd that one of our golden traits is so weak (in my view). The absorb shield from VB is buttons really, unless you use DRM to get an extra disease to tick along and even then its a bit meh. The golden trait to give you leech after a shield is meh too as your shield gets shredded if someone tickles you. 

If the leech persisted for 3 seconds after the shield went up it would be alot stronger. 

[Sniz 60]

14 minutes ago, Shells said:

Blood is in an interesting place right now, it has its own unique strenghts but overall it has been weakend by the nerfs to BB and BoneShield and its slightly weak in general. 

If the proposed dps reduction due for 7.1, a -10% overall dps comes in without any buffs at all, we start to look alot less useful for mythic + and raids in general. 

Which is a pity as we are awesome and much more interesting to play than the other classes :)

 

If DKs pull and just start ripping away, yeah, the dps is great.  But per other threads in this forum, RP (DS) conservation and cooldown management tempers this in high end encounters.

I know they tool balance from high end mythic parses.  But these are high end players being healed by high end players.  DPS for DKs is different when you know your healer is spooling a big heal for you right after getting crushed, verses having to conserve RP b/c your healer is distracted by raid damage or unaware of boss ability timers (or just bad lol).

 

[Sniz 60]

8 minutes ago, Shells said:

Hard to call. 

From my pov I get trucked more in Mythic plus with the trash than with the boss. The boss fights are alot more controlled.  Keeping aggro is not any issue, its surviving the mobs attention :)  . Probably need to use more CC and the likes but its odd that one of our golden traits is so weak (in my view). The absorb shield from VB is buttons really, unless you use DRM to get an extra disease to tick along and even then its a bit meh. The golden trait to give you leech after a shield is meh too as your shield gets shredded if someone tickles you. 

If the leech persisted for 3 seconds after the shield went up it would be alot stronger. 

My experience as well.

Try Tremble Before Me for mythic + trash. Its really nice.