Why does Askmrrobot want me to use Versatility while Icy Veins suggests Haste?

[Shells 64]

48 minutes ago, Sniz said:

My experience as well.

Try Tremble Before Me for mythic + trash. Its really nice.

 

Demon's been trying to get me to try this one out but after it got nerfed recently I dont see it beating the -70% snare that D+D gives with another talent. Still, something to try out for sure. 

[Sniz 60]

try it. I was sceptical too at first.  But if you pull a pack of 5 in a mythic you'll hear it constantly fearing something, usually multiple.  Its not good for absolute lockdown though, its fantastic for interrupting trash abilities, spells, rock throws, anything with a cast bar.

 

[demonardvark 556]

18 hours ago, Sniz said:

try it. I was sceptical too at first.  But if you pull a pack of 5 in a mythic you'll hear it constantly fearing something, usually multiple.  Its not good for absolute lockdown though, its fantastic for interrupting trash abilities, spells, rock throws, anything with a cast bar.

 

not saying i told you so. but .. cough..... sniff... throat clear... yeah :D

its also pretty amazing for world quests too, all elites are vulnerable too as well. so with the wardens a lot of those "mini boss" hunting targets, they can be feared with tremble :D

[Kal 4]

4 hours ago, demonardvark said:

not saying i told you so. but .. cough..... sniff... throat clear... yeah :D

its also pretty amazing for world quests too, all elites are vulnerable too as well. so with the wardens a lot of those "mini boss" hunting targets, they can be feared with tremble :D

Even more true if you play on a PvP server. Tremble is easily the best choice for PvP, and with how useful it is for WQs and Mythic trash I think it's a no brainer at this point.

[Craorach 0]

I came here and subscribed especially because of this, the difference between AMR and the info here confused me :(

It's been awhile (multiple expacs) since I paid attention closely to stats and the like, and even though I'm not going to be tanking cutting edge content, I still want to do as well as I can.

Keeping in mind the quote from below, my stat screen shows that I'm at

Mastery 46%

Haste 11%

Parry 17%

Crit 20%

Does the Parry take into account the bonus from Crit?

Obviously I need to drop my Mastery and up my Haste/Parry >.<

On 10/5/2016 at 0:05 AM, demonardvark said:

25% Mastery soft "floor"

20% Parry (vis a vis Crit) soft "floor"

Balance/Gemming into Haste. With a soft "cap" of 35%. Filtering excess back into Crit/Mastery.

 

 

 

[Sniz 60]

On 10/8/2016 at 3:29 PM, Craorach said:

I came here and subscribed especially because of this, the difference between AMR and the info here confused me :(

It's been awhile (multiple expacs) since I paid attention closely to stats and the like, and even though I'm not going to be tanking cutting edge content, I still want to do as well as I can.

Keeping in mind the quote from below, my stat screen shows that I'm at

Mastery 46%

Haste 11%

Parry 17%

Crit 20%

Does the Parry take into account the bonus from Crit?

Obviously I need to drop my Mastery and up my Haste/Parry >.<

 

It does. As does Strength.

You'll need a little over 22% crit to get to 20% parry.  It works well with the 8% artifact weapon trait.  Which means 20% fully mitigated attacks and 22% that hit for 8% less.  Consider that against Ursoc, a boss that melees for 400+k.  It adds up.

As far as haste is concerned. There is so much Mastery gear out there, so it will be tough to get rid of it for haste without a concerted effort.  It means Fireflash crafted gear.

More haste = more HSs= more DSs.  DS is king. 10% max health is no joke when you have upwards of 3.5 million. (Factoring in the bone shield stack bonus in combat.)

 

[Benhoof 3]

19 hours ago, Sniz said:

... and 22% that hit for 8% less.  

Actually 22% hit for 10% less.

[demonardvark 556]

On 10/10/2016 at 7:28 PM, Benhoof said:

Actually 22% hit for 10% less.

even better :D

[Desruc 15]

On 10/10/2016 at 6:09 AM, Sniz said:

More haste = more HSs= more DSs.  DS is king. 10% max health is no joke when you have upwards of 3.5 million. (Factoring in the bone shield stack bonus in combat.)

im at 3.6m unbuffed soo i hit 4m+ easy..

gotta love those DS man! :D

[Shells 64]

1 hour ago, Desruc said:

im at 3.6m unbuffed soo i hit 4m+ easy..

gotta love those DS man! :D

Could you link your armory so we can drool over it 

:)

[Desruc 15]

2 hours ago, Shells said:

Could you link your armory so we can drool over it 

:)

 

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/agamaggan/Desruc/simple

There you are...
I hate my haste levels.. but goddamn im not getting lucky with haste gear.

[demonardvark 556]

16 hours ago, Desruc said:

 

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/agamaggan/Desruc/simple

There you are...
I hate my haste levels.. but goddamn im not getting lucky with haste gear.

gotta admit, there was a little drool formed :D

[Sniz 60]

Ooo dat Ledge.  And its a good one too...

 

5 hours ago, demonardvark said:

gotta admit, there was a little drool formed :D

 

Considering the fact that Versatility is getting more love, I've been thinking of revising the optimal gear setup.

*Assuming Skeletal Shattering*

 

Soft Floors:

-Haste: 20%

-Parry: 20% (vis a vis Crit/Strength)

-Mastery: 25%

 

Once you reach those "Floors" you should start stacking:

Haste and Versatility, swapping gear in and out as needed , usually w/n 5-10 item levels. (I personally wouldn't drop an item more than 5).

 

Soft/Hard Caps:

Crit: 25% (Simply because its affect on parry is quite low and unknown DRs)

Haste: 40% (you''ll hit 100% with Lust)

Mastery: ?? depends on DRs

Versa: ?? depends on DRs

 

Its unlikely you will hit haste cap while still maintaining crit, mastery and versatility.  So the rule of thumb should be to modestly build all the stats at the same time while maintaing reasonable item levels in order to avoid DRs as much as possible, with a priority on haste/versa.

 

Ppl are starving for pawn scales, but doing this is inherently flawed because Blood cant just stack 2 stats (ie 800 haste =/=1000 mastery, 1200 crit etc.) . We have artifact trait synergy to think about and 4 stats that if one get gets too low, it may hurt the others or more importantly, the artifact.

But if you have the floors, here's a ballpark (very big ballpark) weight scale that one can use.

 

Haste: 1

Versatility: .9

Stam: .8

Strength: .8

Crit: .65 (soft cap 25%}

Mastery : .65 (soft cap 40%)

 

This is UNOFFICIAL and based on multi source research. Its NOT based on actual sims, but takes what sims are recommended into account. I recommend each player to personally adjust this as they see fit based on their own experience, but generally, I believe, this will get you into and past Heroic content.

 

Additional thoughts are more than appreciated, they are MANDATORY!!! ... lol just kidding.  They would be welcome and helpful.

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by Sniz

[Desruc 15]

36 minutes ago, Sniz said:

Ooo dat Ledge.  And its a good one too..

cant even equip my 2nd one yet xD got the legs aswell

 

 

37 minutes ago, Sniz said:

Haste: 1

Versatility: .9

Stam: .8

Strength: .8

Crit: .65 (soft cap 25%}

Mastery : .65 (soft cap 40%)

i feel like you are giving versatility waaay too much love. the pints you get from it is simply not worth it in my opinion.
haste until you are at 30 % gives more runic power = healing on demand.
stam higher healthpools = higher ds and more health so soak shit with (comparing this stat is only relevant for trinkets)

Strength gives very very little parry chance and nothing of our sustain or defence benefits from it.

crit gives parry which is reduced by DR  sure but also gives the same to crit boneshield absobtion.

mastery gives a tiny shield for a % of the heal DS did.

Versertility gives flat dmg reduction and healing improved. But the amount of rating needed to get this is massive.

So based on what synergies with artifact / skills i cant help but feel haste/crit is worth the most, mastery should be up there but the effect of it is too small, maybe at higher levels

anyway my point being crit atleast should outway versatility

[Desruc 15]

10 hours ago, demonardvark said:

gotta admit, there was a little drool formed :D

Ye its shaping up nicely.. tho im sick and tired of all the mastery gear im gettingxD

[Sniz 60]

4 hours ago, Desruc said:

cant even equip my 2nd one yet xD got the legs aswell

 

 

i feel like you are giving versatility waaay too much love. the pints you get from it is simply not worth it in my opinion.
haste until you are at 30 % gives more runic power = healing on demand.
stam higher healthpools = higher ds and more health so soak shit with (comparing this stat is only relevant for trinkets)

Strength gives very very little parry chance and nothing of our sustain or defence benefits from it.

crit gives parry which is reduced by DR  sure but also gives the same to crit boneshield absobtion.

mastery gives a tiny shield for a % of the heal DS did.

Versertility gives flat dmg reduction and healing improved. But the amount of rating needed to get this is massive.

So based on what synergies with artifact / skills i cant help but feel haste/crit is worth the most, mastery should be up there but the effect of it is too small, maybe at higher levels

anyway my point being crit atleast should outway versatility

Really great points.  The post was long so I couldn't get into the rationales, but its warrented, I think.  For thoroughness.

 

Versatility is parsing well for the sims that are at least attempting to put a build together for blood.  I suspect it is because Blood stats now play off each other and with the artifact, making every other stat weaker on their own but stronger together.  So at low stat levels vers is simply stronger comparitively to each stat (arguably) one on one. (Hunch)

The other key point with this method is that before recommending versatility's weight, all the other stats are recommended to be reached at some, what I think, are solid levels.  Low enough to be attainable, high enough so that you have some give or take at 850 (heroic lvl gear) to personalize.

 We are allgoing to get an ilvl upgrade (or 2 or 3) with vers on it. Its inevitable.  I dont think people should shy away from it.  Its just a decently strong "catch all" that has moderate synergy.

But you don't have to take me word for it. Its pretty easy to get some vers with these "stat floors".  Notwithstanding the damage and raid heal bonus, just a 3% self heal bonus for all DK heals is pretty big.  Whereas 3% to mastery is just the blood shield.

As far as the crit/parry/skeletal shattering synergy is concerned. It does take a decent amount of crit to get 1%.  Thats 1 more hit out of 100, you mitigate by 8%.  1 hit for say, 500k that hits for 460k.  A 40k damage mitigation. Out of 100 hits. Whereas 1% of vers mitigates .5% AND makes every heal hit 1% harder.  After 100 500k hits how much health will a DK need to regenerate? 50 million.  Just .5% verse damage mitigation is 250k alone.

 

 

 

[Shells 64]

Im going to wade in somewhere in the middle, Versa is not a bad stat, its just not as strong as Haste and Crit. 

Mastery is meh and if I could Runeforge it off to anything including versa I would. 

Versa is nice as its a boring small increase across the board and will always work. It probably just needs a boost as you have to stack an awful lot to get a % decrease in damage taken/healing received.  If they tweaked that a bit then it would be good. 

As we will passively pick it up there is no need to aim for it, it will happen. 

 

(Having said that, there is a blizz employee somewhere waiting till i get rid of my mastery gear before fixing it back to being awesome just so he/she can laugh at me for binning it all)

[Benhoof 3]

I was thinking about versatility a lot recently.

I don't think it's boring from a mechanical point of view. Especially for DKs it has a lot of synergies.

It's the only stat apart from mastery (and stamina for low damage situations) which boosts your Blood Shield.

Also, and I haven't tested this, if it really provides a straight damage decrease it becomes more potent the more you have of it.

Which put it kind of an odd place. If it's possible to obtain a significant amount of versatility in this expansion I guess it will be nerved.

[demonardvark 556]

one thing to add to this convo is ask mr robot really isn't a good tool, its not very accurate. I realize in the face of the hardcore math and theorycrafting that's been going on it seems like a shallow answer but its a fair point to bring up XD

[Desruc 15]

9 hours ago, Sniz said:

As far as the crit/parry/skeletal shattering synergy is concerned. It does take a decent amount of crit to get 1%.  Thats 1 more hit out of 100, you mitigate by 8%.  1 hit for say, 500k that hits for 460k.  A 40k damage mitigation. Out of 100 hits. Whereas 1% of vers mitigates .5% AND makes every heal hit 1% harder.  After 100 500k hits how much health will a DK need to regenerate? 50 million.  Just .5% verse damage mitigation is 250k alone.

Hmm i must admit you bring some interresting points to the table, the only thing im missing is the full 500k parry you would get aswell (as long as its not magic dmg).

having said that, maybe what we should be looking for is like 20%haste 20% crit and the rest into versatility. and just say fuck mastery.

[Zilkaz 0]

Hello, long time lurker here, been watching this thread with great interest. I have started going hardcore for haste,  and in the last 2 raids I gone up 8% in haste and removed alot of mastery (mastery gear is everywhere) and I have to say the rotation feels alot better with more haste, so much runic power to heal myself with.

Just one question, is the 35% haste goal with or without the boneshield haste?
okey, two, how is my stats looking?:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormreaver/Zilkaz/simple  

Edited October 14, 2016 by Zilkaz

[Shells 64]

29 minutes ago, Desruc said:

Hmm i must admit you bring some interresting points to the table, the only thing im missing is the full 500k parry you would get aswell (as long as its not magic dmg).

having said that, maybe what we should be looking for is like 20%haste 20% crit and the rest into versatility. and just say fuck mastery.

I really hope they scale Mastery a bit better as its pants atm. 

[demonardvark 556]

1 hour ago, Shells said:

I really hope they scale Mastery a bit better as its pants atm. 

pants?

[Shells 64]

59 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

pants?

Look down at your legs Demon, what are you wearing over them 

:)

 

Should have been clearer, Mastery is  a bit weak ass atm so I was calling it pants. Better that than Sh**e :)

[Shells 64]

2 hours ago, Zilkaz said:

Hello, long time lurker here, been watching this thread with great interest. I have started going hardcore for haste,  and in the last 2 raids I gone up 8% in haste and removed alot of mastery (mastery gear is everywhere) and I have to say the rotation feels alot better with more haste, so much runic power to heal myself with.

Just one question, is the 35% haste goal with or without the boneshield haste?
okey, two, how is my stats looking?:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormreaver/Zilkaz/simple  

Its 35% with the boneshield haste for lower gear levels. Ideally at some stage if we could hit 45% plus we would be in a very strong place. Having said that you will need crit and some basic mastery too so you cant just stack haste and hope for the best. 

Good luck with it.