Unerring Vision of Lei Shen - Frustrating

[andreissamu 0]

I finally got this trinket on LFR and have upgraded it to 510. But it's been quite frustrating.

When reading Zagam's post of tips, http://www.icy-veins...gy-tips-quirks/, I read the opening rotation, how Perfect Aim will proc as I'm throwing the second HoG and lo and behold, my dooms would be perfect, but so far this has only happened to me once. This is very frustrating!

Out of 15 pulls we did yesterday, only once has it procced after my second HoG. One time it procced about 90 seconds into the fight! There was a part during trash that it went without proccing for 5 minutes, no joke. Does it not have an ICD or something?

It just sucks because you burn Dark Soul on the pull, expecting that Perfect Aim proc and then it doesn't happen. What's going on here? Is it really this frustrating? Will it get better than I get the normal version of the trinket?

Edit: I just want to make it clear that even though it wouldn't proc on the pull, I still was able to manage a high crit uptime on doom. I just expected that huge burst on the pull since it would be off the ICD...

Edited June 20, 2013 by andreissamu

[Jenaye 9]

The huge burst on pull is not from the doom proc from the trink, it's from you doing the rotation correctly. The trink is sought after because with everlasting affliction and tons of haste, when it procs and you get a doom up, everytime it ticks, you get an imp, which is just piling damage on top of what you've already got going on, and the effects build as the fight goes on, assuming you recast it everytime it procs.

That being said, yes, it is frustrating. The higher versions proc more often, so some of the guys here can report having better luck on a regular basis. Mine is also 510, but someone said something about unequipping it and putting it back on helps it proc. I think it's a placebo, but I do it before every pull regardless. :-P

[Zagam 1,982]

Welcome to the world of RNG. It happens, and it happens a lot. This is why I insist that Haste is NOT king as people like to stack it to get improved proc rates.

If you take a look at my trinket guide, you'll note that the 502/510 version of RPPM trinkets has a rather low proc rate. For example, my 543 Unerring has a 30-35% higher proc chance than yours...and yes, that is quite significant. Unfortunately, I still see the opening of some fights without an Unerring proc. This is by design as you can't depend on it each time.

However, each new RPPM trinket has a proc defense built in. If you are out of combat for 5 minutes, the proc rate on your trinket is increased by 600% making it ALMOST guaranteed to proc, but this is if you are out of combat for 5 minutes which includes rezoning. The solution to this, if your guild or group is willing to allow it, is to never ever release and run back. Rezoning resets the time of your next proc, so you need to plan for this.

TL;DR: You're not going to see a proc at the beginning every time, but there are things you can do to make your chances better. That's RNG for you.

[andreissamu 0]

Welcome to the world of RNG. It happens, and it happens a lot. This is why I insist that Haste is NOT king as people like to stack it to get improved proc rates.

If you take a look at my trinket guide, you'll note that the 502/510 version of RPPM trinkets has a rather low proc rate. For example, my 543 Unerring has a 30-35% higher proc chance than yours...and yes, that is quite significant. Unfortunately, I still see the opening of some fights without an Unerring proc. This is by design as you can't depend on it each time.

However, each new RPPM trinket has a proc defense built in. If you are out of combat for 5 minutes, the proc rate on your trinket is increased by 600% making it ALMOST guaranteed to proc, but this is if you are out of combat for 5 minutes which includes rezoning. The solution to this, if your guild or group is willing to allow it, is to never ever release and run back. Rezoning resets the time of your next proc, so you need to plan for this.

TL;DR: You're not going to see a proc at the beginning every time, but there are things you can do to make your chances better. That's RNG for you.

This is going to sound odd but knowing that your 543 trinket doesn't proc on every pull makes this somehow less frustrating.

Do I have to be literally out of combat or could I just not attack anything in the last couple of trash pulls before a boss?

[Jenaye 9]

Some say you can just be out of combat. I tend to hang back on the last few trash pulls, personally.

[andreissamu 0]

Some say you can just be out of combat. I tend to hang back on the last few trash pulls, personally.

That's what I mean though, I thought trinkets would only trigger if you actually attack mobs, whether you're in combat or not. Sometimes when you're doing trash you can hang back and still get put in combat (aoe or smart heals, for example). Would that reset the '5 minute timer'?

[Zagam 1,982]

Yeah I go "AFK" on pulls before a boss. This feature was INCREDIBLY frustrating during Lei Shen progression. If I released and ran back, no proc. I'd say on most nights where we got 30-40 attempts in, I'd get a proc at the beginning around 3 or 4 times. It was abysmal. However, if I didn't release, I'd say my chances of getting a proc were more in the 50-60% range. It was the difference between doing 240-250k in P1 and 150-175k in P1. I absolutely cursed at my screen when my first proc came during an intermission transition. REALLY TRINKET? ARE YOU REALLY GONNA DO THAT SHIT TO ME?

Yeah, we had our issues. The nice thing, though, that I've seen with the 543 version is it procs A LOT during battle. I'm even Mastery stacked and I see almost 2 procs every 90 seconds. I haven't had many Doom ticks not be crits. Just bear with it. It's going to give you lots of issues. Lord have mercy on your patience when you start doing Heroic Council progression. The trinket proccing within 1 GCD and not proccing is a difference between doing 600k in the first minute and doing 200k in the first minute. INCREDIBLY frustrating, but it is what it is. When it's good, it's REALLY good. When it's bad, it's pretty bad.

[Zagam 1,982]

And to answer the combat question, yes you're "in combat" but you can only proc things with spell hits. Just don't do anything to increase the odds of a proc on your next spell cast.

[andreissamu 0]

Yeah I go "AFK" on pulls before a boss. This feature was INCREDIBLY frustrating during Lei Shen progression. If I released and ran back, no proc. I'd say on most nights where we got 30-40 attempts in, I'd get a proc at the beginning around 3 or 4 times. It was abysmal. However, if I didn't release, I'd say my chances of getting a proc were more in the 50-60% range. It was the difference between doing 240-250k in P1 and 150-175k in P1. I absolutely cursed at my screen when my first proc came during an intermission transition. REALLY TRINKET? ARE YOU REALLY GONNA DO THAT SHIT TO ME?

Yeah, we had our issues. The nice thing, though, that I've seen with the 543 version is it procs A LOT during battle. I'm even Mastery stacked and I see almost 2 procs every 90 seconds. I haven't had many Doom ticks not be crits. Just bear with it. It's going to give you lots of issues. Lord have mercy on your patience when you start doing Heroic Council progression. The trinket proccing within 1 GCD and not proccing is a difference between doing 600k in the first minute and doing 200k in the first minute. INCREDIBLY frustrating, but it is what it is. When it's good, it's REALLY good. When it's bad, it's pretty bad.

My guild is pretty casual, I'm never going to get the 543. I definitely share your frustration though. During Ji-kun it would proc as I jumped into nests. %&%&@#%@#$!@#$*&%$

What sucks about it is that I got Grimoire of Sacrifice and Glyph of Everlasting Affliction especially for this trinket. Hurts damage a lot when Doom isn't critting. But I certainly did more damage than I was doing before, so overall pretty good.

[Jenaye 9]

Yeah I go "AFK" on pulls before a boss. This feature was INCREDIBLY frustrating during Lei Shen progression. If I released and ran back, no proc. I'd say on most nights where we got 30-40 attempts in, I'd get a proc at the beginning around 3 or 4 times. It was abysmal. However, if I didn't release, I'd say my chances of getting a proc were more in the 50-60% range. It was the difference between doing 240-250k in P1 and 150-175k in P1. I absolutely cursed at my screen when my first proc came during an intermission transition. REALLY TRINKET? ARE YOU REALLY GONNA DO THAT SHIT TO ME?

Yeah, we had our issues. The nice thing, though, that I've seen with the 543 version is it procs A LOT during battle. I'm even Mastery stacked and I see almost 2 procs every 90 seconds. I haven't had many Doom ticks not be crits. Just bear with it. It's going to give you lots of issues. Lord have mercy on your patience when you start doing Heroic Council progression. The trinket proccing within 1 GCD and not proccing is a difference between doing 600k in the first minute and doing 200k in the first minute. INCREDIBLY frustrating, but it is what it is. When it's good, it's REALLY good. When it's bad, it's pretty bad.

My group did progession on Iron Qon and lolTwins tonight. I'm affliction, but still, it is angering when on first pull I do a burst of 210kish, and the very next pull, i'm bursting right at 330k. (killed both btw, have a full day to get Lei Shen !!)

[entropism 2]

So I'm trying out Demo (Still not liking it much) and I have the LFR version of this trinket, the Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault and Breath of the Hydra to choose from. Should I even bother with Unerring if the proc rate is so low?

[Cruzan 71]

So I'm trying out Demo (Still not liking it much) and I have the LFR version of this trinket, the Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault and Breath of the Hydra to choose from. Should I even bother with Unerring if the proc rate is so low?

Yes. Swap out Volatile Tali for UVLS

[lunarlife 1]

If I have everything right... For a 502 With 0 haste and lacking raid buff, 145 seconds is the average time between proc. At 218 seconds you begin the bad luck streak multiplier with 0 haste.

To contrast, with 25% haste it moves down to 115 seconds with raid haste buff. This is ignoring sinister proc/heroism

Edited June 21, 2013 by lunarlife

[Zagam 1,982]

Unerring's proc, just one proc every 135 seconds, essentially has the same effect as the Heroic one. You're just differentiating between the baseline Intellect and the number of procs you see during battle. Extra procs aside from ones used to refresh Doom just empower ToC, SB, SF, or whatever else you're doing when it procs and updating Doom isn't necessary. Using it is absolutely key to doing good DPS as Demo.

[entropism 2]

I've been playing around with it more in ToT, and a stopcast/Metamorph/Doom macro was definitely key to helping me out. I'm kind of getting the hang of the spec, and it's nice to have an army of imps following you around.

[Omaric 246]

Replace "bubble" with "proc"

[obleak 10]

Shutting myself up ----- EDIT

Edited June 24, 2013 by obleak

[vaeevictiss 17]

Not that it fully fits with the topic...but on the idea of proc rate percentages it kind of does. Something i learned way back in BC, is exactly what a percentage means on something.

Say you have 35% crit or 35% proc rate. Many people assume that you as a character, has a 35% chance to crit or that trinket has a 35% chance to proc. It doesnt work that way. The way is does work, is that each cast you do...every time you cast anything...there is a 35% chance for THAT CAST to crit. For a trinket, there is a 35% chance for it to proc, when that window is open/cooldown is off.

What does this really mean? In simple no bullshit it literally means you can...if unlucky as all hell, have a 0% chance to crit, or proc. Contrary to that, if ridiculously lucky, you can essentially have a 100% crit rate or proc rate. But, in theory you SHOULD generally average out to 35% over the course of an encounter.

Once i realized this it really helped me understand it a lot better. All you can do is get to the percentage that the sims find perfect harmony and go with it. After that its really out of your hands and you are just subject to the ebb and flow of this crazy thing we call WoW :P

[Zagam 1,982]

Your explanation distorts math and statistics quite a bit. Statistics become more seriously flawed as n becomes fewer where n represents the number of samples you are trying to derive statistics from. For example, if you cast one Shadowbolt with a 35% crit, and did this test 10 times, you might see anywhere from 0 to 10 crits, but while each event is independent, the way things work out is that you'd have a very high chance to see somewhere between 1 and 5 crits while seeing 0, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 crits would be extremely unlikely.

Since most fights last long enough for us to pour out over 1000 spell hits, DoT ticks, and other various effects, you'll almost always see your spells land at a crit rating plus or minus a few percent of your displayed crit chance with the exception to trinket procs and such.

This goes into how RNG trinkets work and how stacking Haste for more procs is a mistake. If you say you stack Haste for more trinket procs, I'll tell you your heart might be in the right place, but your results won't be correct. If you're stacking Haste because you like playing like you're on cocaine, then you're perfectly justified.

The absolute take away from all of it is that statistics rely on numerous samples to come out with higher levels of accuracy. Programs like Simcraft factor in MANY iterations (10000+) so you'll see the AVERAGE effect of your current reforge, gemming, spell priority, etc. World of Logs parses show individual events where you could have seen the higher end of probability events (critting 50% of the time when your display shows 35%) or getting 10 Perfect Aim procs in 5 minutes when Simcraft would say you'd get 8 procs in 10 minutes. You'll never ever ever be able to play a fight the same exact way and you'll never ever ever see the same results.

[vaeevictiss 17]

well i did say that you generally SHOULD see those numbers...I just also wanted to say that they COULD be different...and that is nothing you can blame on anyone but the game. I never said that they will never match up to your actual percentages.

[Jenaye 9]

oh my god, zagam, stahp with the hieroglyphics

[Zagam 1,982]

WUT...you mean maths?

[Jenaye 9]

yes, rofl