Havoc DPS Help pls

[leroymcbong 0]

Hey,

i would like to ask you guys if someone can tell me what im doing wrong. im at 9% ranking in the bracket
here is a log from ursoc mythic last night (best try 3%) :P.

www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/r2RpmAkb1LKQqDFf#fight=16&type=damage-done&source=22

here my armory: eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/blackrock/Demonhuntard/simple

Regards leroy

[Kalyl 0]

same problem pal... i have no idea what im doing wrong but seems my dps doesnt get up... changing from momentum to nemesis

[Procyon 5]

Hey Leroy,

TL;DR: Take Momentum over Nemesis, Chaos Blades over Fel Barrage (maybe? basing this one off feels not data). Cast Chaos Strike WAY more. Over-generate less Fury (although you do a decent job at it already).

I'm looking at your logs and I noticed you're taking Nemesis over Momentum. This is, IMO, a huge mistake, and I'll explain it with a little math. You're also taking Fel Barrage over Chaos Blades which I also think is an issue for single target (won't go too deep into explaining the latter, its just how I feel when running between these two talents).

Let's assume we're talking about single target damage only. First lets look at Nemesis. Nemesis has a 2 minute CD and gives 1 minute of 20% increased damage from all sources (we will ignore the extra affect of applying to all enemy of that type after the mob with the Nemesis debuff is killed early since we're talking single target here). Since it has a 2 minute CD and applies for only 1 minute, that means we can only ever attain a maximum of 50% uptime on Nemesis if we use it every time it comes off CD. This means we can't sync it up with any other CD's and just have to hope they fall in line with it (Heroism/Bloodlust/Pots/Metamorphosis/etc.). This is not optimal by any means. 

Now let's look at Momentum. Momentum can be proced by Vengeful Retreat as well as Fel Rush. The effect gives 20% increased damage from all sources to all enemies. Again we're only looking at single target here so the all enemies part doesn't matter much. If you calculate out how often you can have Momentum up with the CD's of Vengeful Retreat and Fel Rush, with the Prepared talent at tier 2, you can have up to a 73% uptime on the buff, 65% uptime without Prepared. I think Demon Blades is better than Prepared anyways so we'll assume a max of 65% uptime. A good DH with Momentum will have it up at least 50% of the time and if you have less then you're doing it wrong. 

So now that we know what these talents bring to the table, comparing the two max up times alone, we have Nemesis at %50 and Momentum at 65%. That right there should tell you which is better. It isn't always optimal to be casting Rush or Retreat to get Momentum (like when you have no fury or when you're dodging boss mechanics) but given the CD differences between the two talents, Momentum is much more versatile and can be planned around major CD's like Bloodlust/Heroism/Meta/etc. The 2 minute CD on Nemesis is a huge detriment to it's optimization and is the main reason I believe it to be the lesser of the two. 

All that being said, Momentum is a much harder talent to use and really separates the good from the really good. You never want to overlap the buff, ever.

Now that I've puked all that talent info, lets take a quick look at your damage spread. Even though the above is very crucial, I hadn't checked your ability damage spread until now and I think this may be where your problem stems from. I'm currently comparing you to the other DH in your guild who consistently did better than you through the Ursoc fights. He does have 4 ilvl's higher than you so we won't forget that. This log comparison link shows both of your damage spread through the all the 31 attempts. 

In general, Havoc DH have two main damage abilities, Chaos Strike/Annihilation, and Throw Glaive (w/ bloodlet of course). How it should always look in single target (even with your glaive increase legendary effect) is Chaos Strike being top and Throw glaive second most damage. Usually by a pretty large gap too. As you can see in the comparison, you have a huge difference in how many times Chaos Strike/Annihilation were cast (You cast 544 times to his 728). This resulted in him doing about 160 million more damage over the 31 fights. We do need to take into account the ilvl difference here and as you can see, the Avg Cast dmg was about 100k difference each hit so we'll assume that difference is from gear/stat priority. Since he was able to cast almost 200 more Chaos Strikes over you, he had that many more opportunities to critically hit and generate that 20 Fury back which is crucial to doing more damage. So definitely focus on prioritizing Chaos Strike more than you have been over the other Fury spenders like Eye Beam and Blade Dance (which your guildie never once casted within all 31 encounters).

Lemme know if this helps at all if you made it this far. It's a lot to read >.< I'd be happy to go more into detail about things and if you disagree or have questions, feel free to comment about it.

 

Best,

Procyon - Xemnas (DH)

Edited October 19, 2016 by Procyon
Changed 60 million Chaos Strike difference to proper 160 million

[Procyon 5]

Another note, to support my claims on which talents to take, here is 50 of the most relative DH's to your ilvl and fight lengths. Only 4 of the 50 take Nemesis over Momentum and only 1 took Fel Barrage over Chaos Blades.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Procyon
Link didn't work so uploaded a screenshot with the data.

[leroymcbong 0]

wow thank you very much for the long answer procyon! i really appreciate! it!

i took fel barrage because ursoc mythic spwans the add and i thougt it will be better than.

i wont take nemesis again :P and try to get more chaos strike out. tonight we are going myth again.

i hope i can do better now and will report

 

regards leroy

[Kalyl 0]

I agree that Momentum gives the best dps... the thing is that right now is really complicated to keep the style on as much as its needed... i tried everything to learn the rotation and the game style but i failed... with nemesis im about 220-240 k dps with 863 ilvl

[Procyon 5]

I'm glad it helped! Hopefully you get to see some numbers increase! I'd love to see logs again after you implement some of this and could help break those down for you as well (it's fun for me and definitely getting addicting xD).

@Kalyl, yeah that's the only issue with this build. It's very active and keeps you on your toes. I'd highly recommend running some mythics and feeling the rotation before jumping into mythic EN with this build. Paying attention to Momentum and making sure not to overlap the buff is pretty crucial as well as not putting yourself out of position. That and using Fel Rush and Vengeful Retreat I'd highly recommend using the Weak Auras Addon for keeping track of momentum. I can post mine here when I get off work today if you guys are interested. They helped me a ton with Momentum and Bloodlet uptime.

Also, as a side note, Demon Blades works perfectly with Momentum. You have the 4 seconds of dump time which gives you 2-3 AA's to potentially generate fury and by the time you're ready to Fel Rush or Retreat again to proc Momentum, your Demon Blade's Fury bank pops and your Fury bar shoots up to 70 - 80, 80 being ideal due to the possibility to get the extra Fury from Chaos Strike crits.

80 Fury -> Chaos Strike (Spend 40, crits to add 20) -> 60 -> Chaos Strike (crits again) -> 40 Fury -> Chaos Strike (doesn't need to crit but is nice to start next rotation with a buffer)

And ANOTHER thing I want to add (I promise this is the last one xD) is within the 4 seconds of Momentum, you can typically get 3 abilities in. I usually have it as a combination of (Momentum -> Glaive -> Chaos Strike -> Chaos Strike) or (Momentum -> Chaos Strike -> Chaos Strike -> Chaos Strike) or  (Momentum -> Chaos Strike -> Chaos Strike -> Chaos Strike). In Metamorphosis you can usually get double the amount of abilities in depending on how often your Demon Blades fury gen procs.

Feel free to continue asking questions, I'd be happy to continue helping!

Good Luck and Happy Raiding :D

[Kalyl 0]

Yeah pls, your weak auras and a tutorial to setting it would be helpful, im not use to play with addons, but this class really need to keep things checked. ill keep the nemesis build until i can figure out the movement thing and what im doing wrong. it is ok to cast eye beam (yeah, i have the gold talent) while you are on meta? Pretty much what i want to learn is the movement in and out with fel and VR

[Procyon 5]

I have a few videos I may be able to walk through and do commentary on for my raid fights. I'll look into making a tutorial but I've never done anything like it before but it would be really cool to try!

Many guides say to use Eyebeam if you arent going to have adds or more than 2 enemies to hit within 30 seconds but I rarely use it. If I'm using all my CD's and have lots of buffs to my damage, it can pull pretty okay single target DPS. I've seen some of the top parses on Wowlogs not even touch the other fury generators like Blade Dance and Eyebeam. So basically, use on 2+ mobs, otherwise only use on large CD blowouts like Meta and Hero/Bloodlust in my opinion. 

This is how I play out my VR as well as my Fel Rushes (even though it just says VR). I try to always end within melee range of the hitbox to minimize inactivity and running back, both wasting time to cast and Momentum buff time. Make sure to watch where you're jumping though, you don't want to end up in some sort of boss mechanic like Rot on Nythendra or Brambles on Cenarius.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Procyon

[Kalyl 0]

Would be great you add a tutorial for weak auras, i have little knowledge of that kind of addons... had tried but no luck

[Frejka 0]

Just to drop in the thread. May I ask should I run demon blade or prepared with 15% haste. Also should I take fel barrage or chaos blade depending on which is advised before to be taken? 

[Procyon 5]

Sorry for not returning to post my weak auras >.< I'll be posting a video tutorial here (not mine) as well as threads that have paste data on weak auras so you dont have to make your own!

Here is a link with paste data for one of my favorite weak auras I've seen for Demon Hunters. Basically replaces your hotbar. If you have any questions that the video doesn't address, I'll do my best to answer them here.

To copy/paste a Weak Aura string, follow this.

 

[Procyon 5]

@Frejka I'd say run Demon Blades regardless of haste although the more haste you have the more auto attacks you'll put out meaning more chances to generate fury. If you're talking about single target damage (raids, Mythic dungeons without keys) then definitely take Chaos Blades. If you're doing Mythic+, I almost always take Fel Barrage due to how crucial mob clear time is. If you don't know how Demon Blades works, I'd highly recommend looking up a video on it. It acts weird in the fact that it won't give you any of the Fury generation gains while you're on the 1 second Global Cooldown (while casting spells) but will give it to you on the next Auto Attack outside of the cooldowns. This means you can bank up tons of Fury if you continuously cast abilities, stop casting for a few seconds to auto attack, then gain very large amounts of fury (I fill up my entire bar almost every time due to my Legendary Ring that generates extra fury on Demon Blades/Bite). It allows for very bursty Fury dumps since you can essentially fill your Fury bar instantly after your last Fury dump and just continue to dump more Fury into Chaos Strike (given you've re-applied Momentum).

[Procyon 5]

As a side note, for those finding momentum to be hard to keep up properly: Take prepared. Prepared allows for extra fury generation as well as a huge reduction to Vengeful Retreat's CD. This will help you apply Momentum more frequently in the case you're not feeling like it's up enough. I ran Prepared for a while but I like Demon Blades much more and definitely have been pulling higher DPS, but that's not important if you're not rotating Momentum properly. Prepared makes it easier to have Momentum up when it's needed.

[Frejka 0]

@Procyon Sorry to bother. But I have realised that when demon blades doesnt proc I deal so little DPS. on a side note, momentum should always be used in conjunction with my CD spells like fel barrage, glaives? Chaos strike should just be used when i have fury and no other CD to use? 

[Procyon 5]

@Frejka Just want to make sure you understand how banking Fury works with Demon Blades. It's crucial to know how this mechanic works to use Demon Blades properly. Do you understand there is a difference between Demon Blades not procing the generation and procing the generation but banking it up until you're off global CD? Meaning you don't receive the generated Fury until you stop casting abilities. Not saying you don't, just want to double check because it's a weird, but important mechanic.

To answer your question in short: Chaos Strike should be highest priority over all other Fury spending abilities. Unless I have more than 2 targets to hit with Fel Barrage/Blade Dance/Eye beam, I almost always spam Chaos Strike (unless during Hero/Bloodlust/Timewarp) and ignore the rest. I've seen some of the top DH's not even use other abilities and only ever spend Fury on Chaos Strike.

That's the main drawback to Demon Blades is the possibility that the Fury generation doesn't proc. But even with the 75% chance to generate, you shouldn't be sitting for more than 3-4 seconds AT WORST without generating Fury. If you find yourself in these situations, get Momentum up and cast another CD like Glaive, Blade Dance (if you don't have the Fury for Chaos Strike), Fel Barrage, etc. I can assure you that, even with the down time and low DPS during those times, you should be doing more DPS overall with Demon Blades (over Prepared).

Chaos Strike is your main damage dealer during Momentum and should be second in priority to cast during Momentum. Throw Glaive is highest priority to use during momentum ONLY if you don't have Bloodlet applied  to your target(or is less than 2 seconds from finishing) or your last Glaive didn't crit/was't cast during Momentum. You definitely want to save all CD's for Momentum but prioritize throwing a glaive and dumping Fury into Chaos Strike. Never throw Glaives outside of Momentum unless you have 2 stacks (if you have the talent Master of the Glaive which you absolutely should) since Bloodlet runs off of % damage of your glaive. I always look for a crit on the glaive throw to maximize the Bloodlet tick's damage. 

Below is my log from a Heroic Xavius fight. As you can see, Chaos Strike/Annihilation (Chaos Strike when in Metamorphosis) is an enormous amount of my overall damage. Glaive with Bloodlet is my second. You can also see that I only cast Eye beam 6 times through the fight and Blade Dance 1 time (probably by mistake considering it only hit 4 times).

Below is my ranking from that heroic Xavius fight (100 being best, 1 being worst). The far left number (86%) represents my place among all other DPS Demon Hunters for this fight where the far right number is my placement among all DH's with an ilvl of 866-868, again, for this fight. It's not the best placement but it definitely means I'm doing things relatively correct. 

It would also be good to note that I had a 55.65% Momentum uptime without Prepared on that fight. 50%-55% uptime is pretty ideal. Any less and you're doing something wrong.

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Procyon

[Procyon 5]

Here are my Weak Auras with pictures. To import, type /wa in chat to open Weak Auras GUI. Then, on the left side, click New. A bunch of options will pop up on the right. Click the bottom one "Import". A window with a text box will appear. Paste the below strings one at a time into this box and hit done after each individual string has been pasted. After you hit done, a little window will appear at the middle bottom on your screen, wait for it to load and then hit import. The Weak Aura should have been imported and you can re-position how you like.

Momentum Timer

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Bloodlet Timer

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[leroymcbong 0]

hey,

here a report after i tryed to change the things mentioned above. this was ursoc hc last night. my dps is a bit better but overall my ranking still sucks.

any tipps that i can do better?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4hmjQzW32DTYpxvr#type=auras&fight=4&source=9

greetings

[Lockybalboa 618]

I don't have time to look at the log much but one thing I want to say is that your parse isn't really bad. Overall ranking of 79% is tbh where most decent players are going to land-ish.

The ranking for your item level is horrid but that is because your item level is crazy high. You have two legendaries that are inflating your ilvl without really giving you much value. Of the Havoc legendaries, you basically got the worst two - that kind of RNG sucks and there really isn't much you can do for that.

[leroymcbong 0]

Yeah i was lucky with two legends and both are shit..

But the rankings are hard for me, i played hunter in MoP and Draenor and got mainly between 90-99% rankings. And now i always got theese bad numbers :P.

I try praying to the rng god that he drops the legend ring for me ^^.

[Procyon 5]

Yeah the Giant's ring very noticeably increases the amount of Fury you generate. 

Something awesome happened to Demon Blades. It now doesn't bank up any Fury while you're on Global Cooldown. So now you can generate Fury with Demon Blades while casting other abilities. You no longer have to stop Fury dumping if you generate it.

I ran Heroic EN tonight and pulled way larger numbers just because I could go for 15-20 seconds of straight Chaos Strike and Momentum upkeep.

Here are the logs.

[Procyon 5]

@leroymcbong Your placements aren't too bad in the last logs you posted, hitting anywhere between or above 65-70 percentile is good. Like Lockybalboa mentioned, you have a lot of ilvl from your legendaries but no really good effect. This is most likely why your bracket placement is typically lower. Keep prayin to RNGesus and you'll get your ring one day.

The large differences in your overall placements, like on Xavius, are most likely due to simple rotation hiccups. Your Momentum uptime is better than most Demon Hunters I know and play with so you're doing great there. Shooting for that 55-60% would help but you're sitting pretty nice where you're at now. 

[Kalyl 0]

On 20/10/2016 at 11:44 PM, Procyon said:

Here are my Weak Auras with pictures. To import, type /wa in chat to open Weak Auras GUI. Then, on the left side, click New. A bunch of options will pop up on the right. Click the bottom one "Import". A window with a text box will appear. Paste the below strings one at a time into this box and hit done after each individual string has been pasted. After you hit done, a little window will appear at the middle bottom on your screen, wait for it to load and then hit import. The Weak Aura should have been imported and you can re-position how you like.

Momentum Timer

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Bloodlet Timer

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Are you sure the code its ok? Its not working to me... The momentum its working ok

[Procyon 5]

They should be. The most important ones are bloodlet and momentum. I actually stopped using the side bars since they really didn't provide accurate timings for maximizing dps. If you really want similar Weak Auras, these are simple enough to make that if you watch a basic tutorial on setting some up, you should be able to produce similar auras.