T16 Warlock Style - Heroic & Mythic

[Rakupenda 15]

This is wrong.  Immolate generates Emberbits on tick crits.  RoF hitting multiple targets = higher Ember generation = more uses of Chaos Bolt = higher single target DPS.  Anytime Immolate will tick 2-3 times on ANYTHING, it should be cast.  Rain of Fire should ALWAYS be cast if it will hit 2 or more targets for the entire duration, regardless of whether or not the residual damage is permanent.  The Ember generation justifies it.

I said that about Immolate...? Read the second paragraph.

 

RoF doesn't generate embers anymore, does it? Thought that was the whole point of not casting it single target except with haste for the high DPET.

 

2-3 ticks of immolate is one Emberbit assuming it crits (@33% crit), so why wouldn't use use that cast for an incinerate on your main target for a guaranteed Emberbit (technically 1 and a third with the same 33% crit since you get two if Incinerate crits)?

Edited October 21, 2013 by Rakupenda

[Lockybalboa 618]

RoF doesn't generate embers anymore, does it? Thought that was the whole point of not casting it single target except with haste for the high DPET.

 

Reduced from ToT levels, not removed. Thus why it's worth it on two, but not one.

[Omaric 246]

A full ember to save one cast? Ick, I'd rather use it for Chaos Bolt and apply the second Immolate manually.

 

The 2nd *and* 3rd.  There are always 3 up, at least in normal, until you get to the end.

 

Think about how many embers they generate though, especially if you have nice crit (and Destructive Influence active), *while* you're manually reapplying Immolate to the other 2 targets.  While you're casting Immolate 3 times and charging up a CB, I'm casting it once, getting a RoF active and charging up a CB through all the embers I'm raking in.

 

 

I said that about Immolate...? Read the second paragraph.

 

RoF doesn't generate embers anymore, does it? Thought that was the whole point of not casting it single target except with haste for the high DPET.

 

2-3 ticks of immolate is one Emberbit assuming it crits (@33% crit), so why wouldn't use use that cast for an incinerate on your main target for a guaranteed Emberbit (technically 1 and a third with the same 33% crit since you get two if Incinerate crits)?

 

You're being really contradictory. If you said Immolate doesn't generate Embers in the 1st paragraph that's wrong as well. RoF generates Embers and as you've pointed out here, so does Immolate. What are we arguing about again?

[Rakupenda 15]

The 2nd *and* 3rd.  There are always 3 up, at least in normal, until you get to the end.

 

Think about how many embers they generate though, especially if you have nice crit (and Destructive Influence active), *while* you're manually reapplying Immolate to the other 2 targets.  While you're casting Immolate 3 times and charging up a CB, I'm casting it once, getting a RoF active and charging up a CB through all the embers I'm raking in.

 

 

 

You're being really contradictory. If you said Immolate doesn't generate Embers in the 1st paragraph that's wrong as well. RoF generates Embers and as you've pointed out here, so does Immolate. What are we arguing about again?

I meant in comparison to using FoB to apply to the two targets (using up an ember) vs manually applying in that case. If you cast a FoB on your main target you are gimping your main target Immolate damage since it's a weaker version. So what you're trying to do is make up for that lost damage by trading an ember to save two cast times, which I believe would be more worthwhile casting a Chaos Bolt and manually applying the other two Immolates.

 

I can see how that was confusing, I was trying to refer to RoF not generating embers (which I may be mistaken on). I will rework the wording.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Rakupenda

[Zagam 1,982]

I said that about Immolate...? Read the second paragraph.

 

RoF doesn't generate embers anymore, does it? Thought that was the whole point of not casting it single target except with haste for the high DPET.

 

2-3 ticks of immolate is one Emberbit assuming it crits (@33% crit), so why wouldn't use use that cast for an incinerate on your main target for a guaranteed Emberbit (technically 1 and a third with the same 33% crit since you get two if Incinerate crits)?

You confused me by saying contradicting things in two different paragraphs.  I just wanted to correct what was mis-reported. 

 

RoF DOES generate embers, just at a lower rate.  It got lowered to the point it's no longer worth it single target, but under certain Haste effects, it is.  This also means if it hits 2 or more, it should be up as much as possible.  You'd never cast Rain of Fire single target for the DPET over Incinerate or Chaos Bolt. 

 

Immolate has a base duration of 15 seconds and ticks 5 times with an interval of 3 seconds.  It ticks 6 times with 2k Haste and 7 times with 10k Haste.  With combat Crit around 30%, you can expect an Immolate to generate you at least 1, most of the time 2 Ember bits.  With Pandemic, you can extend this and have passive Ember bits flowing.

[Omaric 246]

I could be wrong about DPET as far as FnB Immolate goes on a 3 target fight, but it's just something I've been toying with.  I've done both ways plenty of times.

 

And yeah, go cast RoF on some dummies and report back.  :D

[Rakupenda 15]

RoF DOES generate embers, just at a lower rate.  It got lowered to the point it's no longer worth it single target, but under certain Haste effects, it is.  This also means if it hits 2 or more, it should be up as much as possible.  You'd never cast Rain of Fire single target for the DPET over Incinerate or Chaos Bolt. 

 

Immolate has a base duration of 15 seconds and ticks 5 times with an interval of 3 seconds.  It ticks 6 times with 2k Haste and 7 times with 10k Haste.  With combat Crit around 30%, you can expect an Immolate to generate you at least 1, most of the time 2 Ember bits.  With Pandemic, you can extend this and have passive Ember bits flowing.

Wish they would be more exact in their tooltips. Doesn't even mention Ember generation. What is the rate of generation?

 

So, using your numbers of two ember bits per cast of immolate (Ignoring Pandemic since it only saves you half a duration per fight, but allows you to snapshot haste/crit procs more. To account for this: leaning towards the 2 rather than 1). Compare that to casting a single incinerate on your main target (or two Incinerates compared to applying Immolate to two off targets manually). You get more damage on your main target (since the off target damage is useless), one ember bit, and maybe two if it's a crit. The damage from an incinerate is about 1/10th of a Chaos Bolt (making up for the other ember)...What are you really gaining by dotting up off targets? More hits for trinket procs?

[Rakupenda 15]

I could be wrong about DPET as far as FnB Immolate goes on a 3 target fight, but it's just something I've been toying with.  I've done both ways plenty of times.

 

And yeah, go cast RoF on some dummies and report back. 

What's the damage FnB lowers it to? The spell does 60% of base damage? (Assuming that till corrected) 40% less Immolate damage on your main target and an ember that could have been used for a Chaos Bolt/ Shadowburn vs two hard casts of Immolate every 15 seconds to keep it up (using Zagam's base duration). Blowing an ember every 15 seconds just to keep Immolate up, sounds like net negative if those two Immolates generate 2 emberbits each (Consume 10 to make 4) using Zagam's math.

 

Dummies are too far apart for three target testing, but can check out the two targets at least. Will pull some mobs and spam Rain of Fire to see what happens.

[Zagam 1,982]

The damage from an incinerate is about 1/10th of a Chaos Bolt (making up for the other ember)...What are you really gaining by dotting up off targets? More hits for trinket procs?

What kind of Incinerates are you tossing out?  Mine are averaging 300-500k while my CB goes from 850k to 1.5M.  Only time CB goes over 3M for me is under perfect scenarios with everything live. 

[Omaric 246]

What's the damage FnB lowers it to? The spell does 60% of base damage? (Assuming that till corrected) 40% less Immolate damage on your main target and an ember that could have been used for a Chaos Bolt/ Shadowburn vs two hard casts of Immolate every 15 seconds to keep it up (using Zagam's base duration). Blowing an ember every 15 seconds just to keep Immolate up, sounds like net negative if those two Immolates generate 2 emberbits each (Consume 10 to make 4) using Zagam's math.

 

Dummies are too far apart for three target testing, but can check out the two targets at least. Will pull some mobs and spam Rain of Fire to see what happens.

 

OK, but now you're saying that you don't even think DoT'ing the other 2 is worth it.  So am I comparing FnB Immolates to manually DoT'ing off-targets, or am I comparing FnB Immolates to staying on the main target almost exclusively (short of still casting RoF I hope).  In any case, I couldn't tell you really what would work out best.

 

As far as dummies, you can hit 2 at once easily.  In fact, you can test it on just one.  Cast RoF, wait for Embers.

[Zagam 1,982]

What's the damage FnB lowers it to? The spell does 60% of base damage? (Assuming that till corrected) 40% less Immolate damage on your main target and an ember that could have been used for a Chaos Bolt/ Shadowburn vs two hard casts of Immolate every 15 seconds to keep it up (using Zagam's base duration). Blowing an ember every 15 seconds just to keep Immolate up, sounds like net negative if those two Immolates generate 2 emberbits each (Consume 10 to make 4) using Zagam's math.

 

Dummies are too far apart for three target testing, but can check out the two targets at least. Will pull some mobs and spam Rain of Fire to see what happens.

I'm pretty sure FnB is Mastery based.  Mine sits around 75% of normal damage via FnB if the tooltip is reading correctly.  I can't look at my logs at the moment, but both versions have a unique spell ID, so you can check to see how much both are doing comparitively.  I never use FnB to multi-Immo on 2-3 targets.  Only time I flip on FnB Immo is on 5+ targets.  Otherwise, I typically multi-target Immo, especially on a fight like Protectors.  I treat Klaxxi like Protectors knowing the damage I do on Klaxxi is reset.  I just don't prioritize the spell power of the Immolates on my non-kill target.  I just want ANY Immolate up to keep my embers ticking.  I typically have a 50% combat Crit rating with Ember Master running, so I'm seeing almost a full Ember generated via Immolate ticking on my two non-kill targets.

[Rakupenda 15]

What kind of Incinerates are you tossing out?  Mine are averaging 300-500k while my CB goes from 850k to 1.5M.  Only time CB goes over 3M for me is under perfect scenarios with everything live. 

Pessimistic numbers to show the damage from the Incinerate on main target at 1/10th a Chaos Bolt (More Chaos Bolts being the reason you're multi-dotting Immolates on null targets in the first place) makes up for the second Emberbit your Immolate is generating per duration (based on your math). It just means I was underestimating Incinerate and that you made my point better than I.

[Rakupenda 15]

OK, but now you're saying that you don't even think DoT'ing the other 2 is worth it.  So am I comparing FnB Immolates to manually DoT'ing off-targets, or am I comparing FnB Immolates to staying on the main target almost exclusively (short of still casting RoF I hope).  In any case, I couldn't tell you really what would work out best.

 

As far as dummies, you can hit 2 at once easily.  In fact, you can test it on just one.  Cast RoF, wait for Embers.

For that analysis I was going off of your assumption that it was beneficial (it could very well be, I was just theorizing that it may not be in prior posts vs Incinerate), and went down the logic of FnB application or manual application. Hard to argue two points for two people on the same topic, lol. I was even going to put the assumption in parenthesis, but I feel like I do that too much already. 

 

Thanks for the tip.

[Rakupenda 15]

I'm pretty sure FnB is Mastery based.  Mine sits around 75% of normal damage via FnB if the tooltip is reading correctly.  I can't look at my logs at the moment, but both versions have a unique spell ID, so you can check to see how much both are doing comparitively.  I never use FnB to multi-Immo on 2-3 targets.  Only time I flip on FnB Immo is on 5+ targets.  Otherwise, I typically multi-target Immo, especially on a fight like Protectors.  I treat Klaxxi like Protectors knowing the damage I do on Klaxxi is reset.  I just don't prioritize the spell power of the Immolates on my non-kill target.  I just want ANY Immolate up to keep my embers ticking.  I typically have a 50% combat Crit rating with Ember Master running, so I'm seeing almost a full Ember generated via Immolate ticking on my two non-kill targets.

A full ember generated between the three Immolates? Looking at log Immolate crits/duration to estimate this I'm guessing?

[Zagam 1,982]

You bring up good questions and likely helped others see things they may not have known.  Blizz hasn't exactly been informative of changes happening.  See: Rain of Fire, Destro 4pc, Wild Imps, Agony, etc.  They like to change things and let us figure them out. 

[Omaric 246]

 I was even going to put the assumption in parenthesis, but I feel like I do that too much already.

 

(I(don't(have(that(problem(fortunately.))))))

[Zagam 1,982]

A full ember generated between the three Immolates? Looking at log Immolate crits/duration to estimate this I'm guessing?

I'm going off of 50% measured combat crit percentage of spells and DoT ticks.  I sit at 10124 Haste, so my Immo ticks 7 times.

 

1 Immo to duration = 3-4 Emberbits

2 Immo to duration = 6-8 Emberbits

3 Immo to duration = 9-12 Emberbits

 

This is why Destruction can keep up with Affliction on a lot of multi-dotting things like Protectors.  The Ember generation is insane.  Mix in that it tick-crits for over 130k and you have some serious capacity at your hands.  I'm actually surprised that Immo has been allowed to be as strong and generate as many embers as it does for so long.

[Omaric 246]

I'm going off of 50% measured combat crit percentage of spells and DoT ticks.  I sit at 10124 Haste, so my Immo ticks 7 times.

 

1 Immo to duration = 3-4 Emberbits

2 Immo to duration = 6-8 Emberbits

3 Immo to duration = 9-12 Emberbits

 

This is why Destruction can keep up with Affliction on a lot of multi-dotting things like Protectors.  The Ember generation is insane.  Mix in that it tick-crits for over 130k and you have some serious capacity at your hands.  I'm actually surprised that Immo has been allowed to be as strong and generate as many embers as it does for so long.

 

Word.  I'm second guessing myself now though on whether it's worth applying Immolate on Klaxxi off-targets.  I mean, protectors it's a no brainer, the damage is always being put to use.  For Klaxxi they get healed back to full, so is the time spent generating embers through Immolating off-targets really helping to speed up the fight when it can be put to use on the main target.  It definitely looks good for padding, however.

 

I'm thinking I want to start using Havoc to apply Immolate to the other 2 targets and throw in an Incinerate as well.  Keep up RoF.  I'm thinking the only time I'll have Immolate running on the others is solely based on my Havoc CD.

[Rakupenda 15]

I'm going off of 50% measured combat crit percentage of spells and DoT ticks.  I sit at 10124 Haste, so my Immo ticks 7 times.

 

1 Immo to duration = 3-4 Emberbits

2 Immo to duration = 6-8 Emberbits

3 Immo to duration = 9-12 Emberbits

 

This is why Destruction can keep up with Affliction on a lot of multi-dotting things like Protectors.  The Ember generation is insane.  Mix in that it tick-crits for over 130k and you have some serious capacity at your hands.  I'm actually surprised that Immo has been allowed to be as strong and generate as many embers as it does for so long.

That changes things, I was going off of your previous 1-2 emberbits per duration.

 

*recalculating like Iyyukuk*

[Rakupenda 15]

Word.  I'm second guessing myself now though on whether it's worth applying Immolate on Klaxxi off-targets.  I mean, protectors it's a no brainer, the damage is always being put to use.  For Klaxxi they get healed back to full, so is the time spent generating embers through Immolating off-targets really helping to speed up the fight when it can be put to use on the main target.  It definitely looks good for padding, however.

 

I'm thinking I want to start using Havoc to apply Immolate to the other 2 targets and throw in an Incinerate as well.  Keep up RoF.  I'm thinking the only time I'll have Immolate running on the others is solely based on my Havoc CD.

Net neutral ember generation, slightly positive using Zagam's numbers. Better to hard cast if anything. *still reclaculating*

 

Immolate + Havoc? What is this madness?

[Rakupenda 15]

I'm going off of 50% measured combat crit percentage of spells and DoT ticks.  I sit at 10124 Haste, so my Immo ticks 7 times.

 

1 Immo to duration = 3-4 Emberbits

2 Immo to duration = 6-8 Emberbits

3 Immo to duration = 9-12 Emberbits

Ok so, to find out the gain of applying two additional Immolates to off targets for their ember generation alone.

Gains: 6-8 emberbits per 15 seconds with two additional Immolates

Cost: Two cast times (could be used for Incinerates at 2 ember bits each - being pessimistic so no bonus emberbits from crits)

Net: Plus 4-6 emberbits and minus two Incinerates worth of damage.

Basically it comes down to half (0.5) a Chaos Bolt vs Two (2.0) Incinerates.

Using your averages of 300-500k per Incinerate and 850-1,500k Chaos Bolts from previous post.

(400k per Incinerate, 1,175k Chaos Bolt)

3 Incinerates ~ 1 Chaos Bolt, slightly more but again being pessimistic

(or 1.5 Incinerates vs 0.5 Chaos Bolt)

You're losing half an Incinerate worth of damage on your main target.

Pad-pad-pad.

[Omaric 246]

Net neutral ember generation, slightly positive using Zagam's numbers. Better to hard cast if anything. *still reclaculating*

 

Immolate + Havoc? What is this madness?

 

Sorry, for Protectors I didn't mean FnB Immolate.  Applying manually there.  Definitely not neutral. 

 

And yes, what other useful thing can Havoc be put towards other than hitting the blobs with a Chaos Bolt?  A huge portion of the fight your Havoc can only meaningfully be put to use by gaining additional Emberbits through Immolate/Incinerate.  Might as well apply Havoc to something that helps you generate more Embers.  You lose 1 GCD, but you cap the duration on your main target *and* you get a possible bonus ember from the 3rd Incinerate on an add.  Since you would have the main target Havoc'd for these examples you don't have to worry about lost DPS, except for maybe a little bit on the 2nd Immolate which should pay for itself in Emberbits.

[Soulzar 42]

I did Paragons as destro as a test for the first time this past week on our alt Flex clear and while multi dotting the dummies for extra embers I really felt I was spending too much time for little benefit.  I was unable to generate enough embers (with my gear at least) to not require filler on the primary target to maintain higher ember generation.

 

Havoc primary target and immo off targets may work best seeing as Havoc has no other practical use from a DMG perspective. This would put immo on both off targets and leave your kill target with a max duration pandemic immo.  It would be a matter of finding out what on average generates more emberbits.... 3 incinerates or 2 immolates and 1 incinerate. .. from zags examples above, sounds like 2 immo's and an incin.

 

I did my Dark shaman opener applying a F&B immolate, not even thinking about its reduced dmg modifier... hmmm.. may need to revisit that..

 

Edit:  2 immo and 1 incin would require 1 lost cast off of your priority target.  3 incins would require none.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Soulzar

[Rakupenda 15]

Sorry, for Protectors I didn't mean FnB Immolate.  Applying manually there.  Definitely not neutral. 

 

And yes, what other useful thing can Havoc be put towards other than hitting the blobs with a Chaos Bolt?  A huge portion of the fight your Havoc can only meaningfully be put to use by gaining additional Emberbits through Immolate/Incinerate.  Might as well apply Havoc to something that helps you generate more Embers.  You lose 1 GCD, but you cap the duration on your main target *and* you get a possible bonus ember from the 3rd Incinerate on an add.  Since you would have the main target Havoc'd for these examples you don't have to worry about lost DPS, except for maybe a little bit on the 2nd Immolate which should pay for itself in Emberbits.

Gotcha.

 

It's just half a GCD to apply Havoc, not a full one? The three (up to six) additional emberbits generated from Incinerates would definitely be beneficial. (I haven't affirmed this myself, does Havoc'd Incinerate generate embers? What about a Havoc'd Shadowburn?)

[Nytemare 2]

LFR, sure. Flex, maybe. Normal, if you have mad gear and good healers. Heroic, lolololololololololololololol...no.

 

that what I was afarid of