T16 Warlock Style - Heroic & Mythic

[Omaric 246]

Gotcha.

 

It's just half a GCD to apply Havoc, not a full one? The three (up to six) additional emberbits generated from Incinerates would definitely be beneficial. (I haven't affirmed this myself, does Havoc'd Incinerate generate embers? What about a Havoc'd Shadowburn?)

 

Havoc activates no GCD's, it's pretty fancy.  Havoc'd Incinerates generate Embers, but you do not gain 4 Embers for killing 2 targets with Havoc'd Shadowburns unfortunately.

 

Edit: Or am I wrong.  I'm pretty sure Havoc doesn't activate a GCD.  Wowhead is showing that it does, but I'm pretty sure I've always thrown it up and followed it immediately up with another spell.  Dammit now I have to test.

[Nyanchan 2]

So, last night i had a good 4 hours of wiping on H thok (those long runs...), we try to take him to 25ish stacks, over 15 it becomes almost impossible to use MG or CB without being interrupted. Affli IS way easier to handle here for procs and it does deal higher damage initially but it doesnt compare to destro in the transition phase. Glyphed havoc = 6 casts on add + thok and 6 shadowburns (if timed correctly) on bats and thok. In all my attempts that we made it to bats, Destro ended up higher on damage than affli (but i might just suck at it). i did try soulswap on bats but they dont last THAT long, by the time i finish soulswapping all of them  would have been dead if i would had gone destro. 

 

I dont see how using ember tap is detrimental. Locks have huge survivability so they have me in a triangle formation in where I am alone till the 21ish stack in where we all come together. So being able to heal myself if things go bad (a devo aura goes wrong and a healer cd is interrupted, like tranquility) has saved me plenty of times. Plus fel flame + Rof + confg are not so bad till i can launch incinerates or bolts. If my trinkets proc i shield them with glyphed unending resolve (2 min cd) to throw 2 or 3 2m+ bolts. 

 

Burning rush to get away from thok with an ember tap works wonders.

 

Not saying affli is bad, just saying enough testing hasnt been done (imo) to say destro couldnt be as good and im totally open to suggestions. REALLY considering going demo just for this one since it has the best of the 2 worlds for this. (could pool fury till the interrupts get too fast, I can super cd aoe bats as well)

[Lockybalboa 618]

So, last night i had a good 4 hours of wiping on H thok (those long runs...),

 

 

SoulStone a healer at the start of every pull. Even if you're the only battle rez. The shorter run back is worth more than the battle rez.

 

 

Affli IS way easier to handle here for procs and it does deal higher damage initially but it doesnt compare to destro in the transition phase. Glyphed havoc = 6 casts on add + thok and 6 shadowburns (if timed correctly) on bats and thok. In all my attempts that we made it to bats, Destro ended up higher on damage than affli (but i might just suck at it).

 

Sitting at 4 embers for a large bit of the fight seems really useless. KJC+lots of running = a shit ton of damage on Thok and on the add. My raid runs two melee so the Jailer is not something I really need to care about but I normally SS dots on to him anyways.

 

 

i did try soulswap on bats but they dont last THAT long, by the time i finish soulswapping all of them  would have been dead if i would had gone destro. 

 

This will large depend on your raid comp, my dot spam is ~25-30% of the damage on bats out of 6 people switching to them.

 

 

I dont see how using ember tap is detrimental. Locks have huge survivability so they have me in a triangle formation in where I am alone till the 21ish stack in where we all come together. . 

 

 

I don't know what kind of ass backwards strat you guys are using but this sounds just dumb. Slap your raid leader for being bad.

 

REALLY considering going demo just for this one since it has the best of the 2 worlds for this. (could pool fury till the interrupts get too fast, I can super cd aoe bats as well)

 

 

If you have PBI, do it.

[Rakupenda 15]

Havoc has a short GCD like your curses.

 

Rain of Fire does generate embers, so it isn't padding on a fight like Paragons. Still unconvinced about Immolate spreading.

 

F&B is Mastery based. Mine is currently at 70% base damage.

 

Havoc does generate extra embers from the extra spells.

[Nyanchan 2]

SoulStone a healer at the start of every pull. Even if you're the only battle rez. The shorter run back is worth more than the battle rez.

 

Yeah we do this, but sometimes people release or mass ress debuff and other stupid stuff makes time between pulls a big long.

 

 

Sitting at 4 embers for a large bit of the fight seems really useless. KJC+lots of running = a shit ton of damage on Thok and on the add. My raid runs two melee so the Jailer is not something I really need to care about but I normally SS dots on to him anyways.

 

Im rarely at 4 embers, before the stack is high i can spam incinerates till i see the interrupt coming, then spam felflames till the interrupt happens, then just cast chaos bolt straight away. then if they are like even higher and i get a trink proc just use my unending resolve cd which helps healers anyway and I start launching my chaos bolts.

 

I do run around with KJC which is why with the glyph of havoc my dps gets a huge burst there, sometiems ive been so lucky as to get both my ktt and pbi proc on that phase, havoc and launch 2 double chaos bolt for 2.5m each. 

 

But yeah we also run 2 melee, but our melees kept asking for a bit of help. (plus its only mi havoc while i run around chasing thok)

 

This will large depend on your raid comp, my dot spam is ~25-30% of the damage on bats out of 6 people switching to them.

 

How long does ur bats last? the undending resolve here plus my engineering and other dps cd lets me cast empowered incinerates till they are low enough for the havoc spam. So i deal around 70-80%.

 

I don't know what kind of ass backwards strat you guys are using but this sounds just dumb. Slap your raid leader for being bad.

 

What do you mean? why is this wrong? the other guild who killed them in our realm did the same thing, we dont stack so that he wont transition until the healing is too hard. My ember tap are just used in very rare cases where i rather use it than to risk dying.

 

 

 

If you have PBI, do it.

 

Does demo benefit more from pbi than the others? or do you mean the garosh one?

Edited October 22, 2013 by Nyanchan

[t3chy 0]

I got all the trinkets from soo to chose from (in heroic) xcept for the garosh one which i have warforged. The trinket rng god has been nice to me this tier.

 

I sense some hate msges inc.. :p

[Nyanchan 2]

I sense some hate msges inc..

 

dunno what u r talking about, this was never said O_O

[Lockybalboa 618]

How long does ur bats last? the undending resolve here plus my engineering and other dps cd lets me cast empowered incinerates till they are low enough for the havoc spam. So i deal around 70-80%.

 

~20 seconds. They don't take long and don't pose much of a threat.

 

 

What do you mean? why is this wrong? the other guild who killed them in our realm did the same thing, we dont stack so that he wont transition until the healing is too hard. My ember tap are just used in very rare cases where i rather use it than to risk dying.

 

 

I might have misunderstood you but from what it sounds like you're doing, and I assume this is a 10 man raid, you have three groups. Melee, ranged, and then you....alone. Why? What possible reason is there for one lone person to be alone...ever.

 

You need to keep the two groups, ranged and melee, apart by 10 yards so that the boss doesn't push in to the next phase, but you don't need some lone sombitch standing out with his pants down. If you're lacking melee to do a true melee only stack, then throw a healer or a ranged or two in that group and still keep the two groups. The groups are close enough for shaman healing rain, druid evo, pally hammer, etc. to hit both groups, but not close enough for the boss to push without wanting him to.

 

 

 

Does demo benefit more from pbi than the others? or do you mean the garosh one?

 

 

PBI is Purified Bindings of Immerseus. The trinket off Garrosh is BBoY (Black Blood of *name of old god that starts with a Y)

 

No, demo doesn't gain a fuckton more out of PBI than the other two do (well, kind of) but demo DOES need PBI to be viable in a end raid setting, like heroic Thok. Otherwise the DPS from falls far enough behind the other two specs that it really can only be justified if your raid is massively out gearing the fight or you're a top .001% demo lock.

 

Mastery gives a flat DPS gain in caster form and a flat DPS gain in meta form, the meta form is x3 the caster form, so PBI giving you a 5-9% mastery gain = a flat HUGE amount of DPS gain in both meta and caster forms. This is strong enough to make demo not only viable but Really strong, when played right.

 

You have to forget ToT demo and treat it almost like Aff, meaning that your top goal is to keep a doom rolling on the target(s) that is powerful as can be (like Affs dots but with just one) and then the rest of the time is a give and take flow building DF and spending DF. SS becomes more used to proc your 2pc then it is anything else, it's still good damage, but the 2pc proc and keeping the best up time on that proc is far more important.

 

That said, keep in mind that this is only what I have heard from the demos that HAVE a PBI. I still haven't gotten one nor has Zag, so both of us are still 90% in the theoretical realm when it comes to this. Fairly sure there is one or two demos on IV that have PBI and are making good use of the spec, one of them might be able to weigh in with confirmed information.

[Nyanchan 2]

~20 seconds. They don't take long and don't pose much of a threat.

 

 

 

I might have misunderstood you but from what it sounds like you're doing, and I assume this is a 10 man raid, you have three groups. Melee, ranged, and then you....alone. Why? What possible reason is there for one lone person to be alone...ever.

 

You need to keep the two groups, ranged and melee, apart by 10 yards so that the boss doesn't push in to the next phase, but you don't need some lone sombitch standing out with his pants down. If you're lacking melee to do a true melee only stack, then throw a healer or a ranged or two in that group and still keep the two groups. The groups are close enough for shaman healing rain, druid evo, pally hammer, etc. to hit both groups, but not close enough for the boss to push without wanting him to.

 

 

 

 

PBI is Purified Bindings of Immerseus. The trinket off Garrosh is BBoY (Black Blood of *name of old god that starts with a Y)

 

No, demo doesn't gain a fuckton more out of PBI than the other two do (well, kind of) but demo DOES need PBI to be viable in a end raid setting, like heroic Thok. Otherwise the DPS from falls far enough behind the other two specs that it really can only be justified if your raid is massively out gearing the fight or you're a top .001% demo lock.

 

Mastery gives a flat DPS gain in caster form and a flat DPS gain in meta form, the meta form is x3 the caster form, so PBI giving you a 5-9% mastery gain = a flat HUGE amount of DPS gain in both meta and caster forms. This is strong enough to make demo not only viable but Really strong, when played right.

 

You have to forget ToT demo and treat it almost like Aff, meaning that your top goal is to keep a doom rolling on the target(s) that is powerful as can be (like Affs dots but with just one) and then the rest of the time is a give and take flow building DF and spending DF. SS becomes more used to proc your 2pc then it is anything else, it's still good damage, but the 2pc proc and keeping the best up time on that proc is far more important.

 

That said, keep in mind that this is only what I have heard from the demos that HAVE a PBI. I still haven't gotten one nor has Zag, so both of us are still 90% in the theoretical realm when it comes to this. Fairly sure there is one or two demos on IV that have PBI and are making good use of the spec, one of them might be able to weigh in with confirmed information.

 

A tear just came out from me, i can play demo again! u made my day. So ill try the set up you are recommeding, I assume that since its played as affli using the BBoY plus the PBI is the best choice right? or still KTT? i got H PBI, H KTT and WF BBoY. does the BBoY outweights the extra ilvls from the heroic KTT for demo as well as in affli? cuz some double hit things from soulfires could be good.

 

THanks for the awesome feedback, ill talk with my raid leader about the strat too.

[Demyndra 6]

 i got H PBI, H KTT and WF BBoY.

 

/wrists

[Omaric 246]

Mastery gives a flat DPS gain in caster form and a flat DPS gain in meta form, the meta form is x3 the caster form, so PBI giving you a 5-9% mastery gain = a flat HUGE amount of DPS gain in both meta and caster forms. This is strong enough to make demo not only viable but Really strong, when played right.

They changed Dark Soul: Knowledge at the beginning of this patch so that it gives you an unmodifiable 30% mastery, making it so that it can't be affected by PBI.

[Lockybalboa 618]

They changed Dark Soul: Knowledge at the beginning of this patch so that it gives you an unmodifiable 30% mastery, making it so that it can't be affected by PBI.

 

Never said it did

[Omaric 246]

Never said it did

 

Can you help me to understand why it's so key for Demonology then?  I mean I know it's awesome, but it doesn't seem like Demo needs it more than any other caster.

[Lockybalboa 618]

No, demo doesn't gain a fuckton more out of PBI than the other two do (well, kind of) but demo DOES need PBI to be viable in a end raid setting, like heroic Thok. Otherwise the DPS from falls far enough behind the other two specs that it really can only be justified if your raid is massively out gearing the fight or you're a top .001% demo lock.

 

Mastery gives a flat DPS gain in caster form and a flat DPS gain in meta form, the meta form is x3 the caster form, so PBI giving you a 5-9% mastery gain = a flat HUGE amount of DPS gain in both meta and caster forms. This is strong enough to make demo not only viable but Really strong, when played right.

 

You have to forget ToT demo and treat it almost like Aff, meaning that your top goal is to keep a doom rolling on the target(s) that is powerful as can be (like Affs dots but with just one) and then the rest of the time is a give and take flow building DF and spending DF. SS becomes more used to proc your 2pc then it is anything else, it's still good damage, but the 2pc proc and keeping the best up time on that proc is far more important.

 

That said, keep in mind that this is only what I have heard from the demos that HAVE a PBI. I still haven't gotten one nor has Zag, so both of us are still 90% in the theoretical realm when it comes to this. Fairly sure there is one or two demos on IV that have PBI and are making good use of the spec, one of them might be able to weigh in with confirmed information.

 

 

Again, I don't HAVE a PBI so I haven't seen the massive increase that I've heard about. Trying demo without a PBI was crap though Vs. aff/destro.

[Omaric 246]

Wow, yeah you did say that in the very first paragraph.  F'in A, haha.

 

It looked like you were saying the 5-9% in the part I previously quoted, and you have now bolded ( ), was much bigger for Demonology than for other specs.  I had to assume it was because you thought Dark Soul still netted 18,000 mastery.  I still don't think the 5-9% is huge in relation to other specs because it's all based on your current rating.  Maybe I'm confusing myself.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I picked up demonology earlier again to test it out, but didn't manage to get into a flex and the LFR queue's were beyond ridiculous so I gave up. Spent an hour or so hitting dummies though to get a feel for it. Anyway...

 

With close to 11k haste and 16k mastery, Simcraft tells me it's on par with affliction (299k dps with AD talent), but the way it plays just feels extremely clunky. You have no fury on the pull so you spend half of it outside of meta, and during the fight the Molten Core procs aren't exactly frequent. Well snapshotted dots probably allow affliction to pull ahead in actual play, but demo is a lot more mobile and can pretty much always take AD whereas sometimes you might feel you really need the KJC talent for afflic. Regardless, it's very difficult to really react to procs when you aren't generating much fury, and don't have many MC procs coming in.

 

According to Zinnin and a few others over on mmochamp, the spec really picks up if you can hit the 15k (14873) haste breakpoint, as you get a lot more fury to react to procs with, and your molten core procs are more frequent due to the extra imps and shadowflame ticks.

 

I'll give demo a shot in flex after tomorrow's reset and perhaps even on a few heroics when we clear farm on thursday, but for anyone wanting to try it out, I believe the high haste build is the one you want to go for, as otherwise you find yourself fury and molten core starved when you need it.

[Omaric 246]

I picked up demonology earlier again to test it out, but didn't manage to get into a flex and the LFR queue's were beyond ridiculous so I gave up. Spent an hour or so hitting dummies though to get a feel for it. Anyway...

 

With close to 11k haste and 16k mastery, Simcraft tells me it's on par with affliction (299k dps with AD talent), but the way it plays just feels extremely clunky. You have no fury on the pull so you spend half of it outside of meta, and during the fight the Molten Core procs aren't exactly frequent. Well snapshotted dots probably allow affliction to pull ahead in actual play, but demo is a lot more mobile and can pretty much always take AD whereas sometimes you might feel you really need the KJC talent for afflic. Regardless, it's very difficult to really react to procs when you aren't generating much fury, and don't have many MC procs coming in.

 

According to Zinnin and a few others over on mmochamp, the spec really picks up if you can hit the 15k (14873) haste breakpoint, as you get a lot more fury to react to procs with, and your molten core procs are more frequent due to the extra imps and shadowflame ticks.

 

I'll give demo a shot in flex after tomorrow's reset and perhaps even on a few heroics when we clear farm on thursday, but for anyone wanting to try it out, I believe the high haste build is the one you want to go for, as otherwise you find yourself fury and molten core starved when you need it.

 

Being DF starved is exactly the reason I *don't* go haste.  I feel that spread out, multi-target fights are where Demo shines.  More targets = more Doom ticks.  The more crit you have the better Wild Imp output you'll see over the course of the fight.  This leads not only to more Imps, but more DF *and* more MC procs.

 

Yes, the start is still shaky and it sucks having to spend about half of DS in caster form, but Demo picks up speed over time if you can correctly maintain your rotation and use the T16 2-piece bonus to its full potential.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Being DF starved is exactly the reason I *don't* go haste.  I feel that spread out, multi-target fights are where Demo shines.  More targets = more Doom ticks.  The more crit you have the better Wild Imp output you'll see over the course of the fight.  This leads not only to more Imps, but more DF *and* more MC procs.

 

Yes, the start is still shaky and it sucks having to spend about half of DS in caster form, but Demo picks up speed over time if you can correctly maintain your rotation and use the T16 2-piece bonus to its full potential.

 

I see your point, though I should really have said I was talking about single target demo. 

 

But let's discuss multi target then (I'm talking theoretically here still).

 

From more doom crits yes you get more imps, but to be fair the damage of imps has been slashed so I don't see that as being as beneficial as it used to be. With more haste you get an extra doom tick per cast as well as an extra tick of shadowflame so I think it could balance it out. Your main stat will be mastery so crit chance isn't going to be sky high, in my current gear if I go Mastery > Crit I still only end up at 8k crit maximum.

 

Haste also allows you to get off casts much faster, allowing you to squeeze in more before you have to move from stuff, which is a quality of life change considering how most fights have some degree of movement.

 

In any case, my first post was about demo single target, but I still believe haste can work in multi target encounters, especially something like Protectors or Paragons where you generally have at least 2 targets to drop HoG on if not more.

[Nyanchan 2]

I also dont think crit is good for demo, bursting meta damage with enough fury should provide a higher dps gain, so going mastery haste seems ideal to me. Still I think demo has to factor the procs a lot more in order to work correctly, mr robot recomends a crit build but i dunno why...

 

Really wish I could spec correctly to at least match the other 2 specs max dps (i hate affli so much). 

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm doing 8097 Haste > Mastery > Crit > Haste for my Demo/Destro build.  8097 is awesome because it hits an extra tick of Doom with Bloodlust/Tempus Repit.  It makes knowing when TR is up worthwhile.

[Nyanchan 2]

I'm doing 8097 Haste > Mastery > Crit > Haste for my Demo/Destro build.  8097 is awesome because it hits an extra tick of Doom with Bloodlust/Tempus Repit.  It makes knowing when TR is up worthwhile.

 

You are the genius lock, so im going to try that too, lol

 

Oh god it feels so slow... how crazy is the idea previously said here to go to the 14k ish haste brakpoint?

Edited October 23, 2013 by Nyanchan

[Zagam 1,982]

Personal preference.  I like faster paced things as well, but I also love seeing 120% increased damage in Metamorphosis form and 30% combat crit.

[Soulzar 42]

I'm doing 8097 Haste > Mastery > Crit > Haste for my Demo/Destro build.  8097 is awesome because it hits an extra tick of Doom with Bloodlust/Tempus Repit.  It makes knowing when TR is up worthwhile.

 

This is currently what I am forged too as well.

[Omaric 246]

I'm doing 8097 Haste > Mastery > Crit > Haste for my Demo/Destro build.  8097 is awesome because it hits an extra tick of Doom with Bloodlust/Tempus Repit.  It makes knowing when TR is up worthwhile.

 

You're still a Troll, yeah?  Why don't you reforge your haste to the point where you get an extra tick of Doom with Berserking thrown in there as well and get more crit?  How often are BL and TR up simultaneously anyway?  Generally Berserking is available whenever BL is available.

[Zagam 1,982]

It would only help in the opener and it would only get me another tick.  I picked that value because I was using 8094 for the Shadowflame and 8097 seemed pretty reasonable as an overall value.  What I meant by this value is I get the extra tick with EITHER Tempus Repit OR Bloodlust, not the combination of the two.  So it should happen far more often.  I would NEVER reforge for Bloodlust alone.