T16 Warlock Style - Heroic & Mythic

[Omaric 246]

Crouching Zagam, hidden information.

[Liquidsteel 279]

You are the genius lock, so im going to try that too, lol

 

Oh god it feels so slow... how crazy is the idea previously said here to go to the 14k ish haste brakpoint?

It's not crazy at all, it's a case of trading crit and most likely some mastery (so you lose some burst and damage whilst in meta) for a much smoother rate of fury generation thanks to faster casts and more molten core procs.

 

I've always preferred haste demo as two second shadowbolts drive me insane, and with AD talent and RPPM trinkets it can be difficult to react to procs when you don't have any fury/can't soulfire.

[Kazistrasz 216]

AKA, be in a 25 man.  This is simply not a viable strategy for 10 mans.

I've seen 10-man guilds with 3 paladins before. They suck, but they do end up clearing things eventually.

[Orei 2]

Haven't visited this forum in a while but, after viewing the last few pages, I have a couple tips/tricks(open for criticism).

In regards to the immolate spreading discussion: I always use havoc on CD to spread it. Immo off target havoc second off target then proceed with normal rotation on main target.(only done for opener on pandas for faster initial ember build.)

I've also had more success with Destro on normal mode thok. Just make sure I've burnt through all my embers during DS and lower stacks. Once you can no longer fit a cb in between interupts you should still be able to fit on immo and incin casts and just alternate with fb. Glyphed unending resolve timed around devo when you get procs to avoid ember capping.

Just my thoughts :)

[Omaric 246]

I don't know if I agree with the Protector opening.  For Klaxxi hell yes, because the damage done to off-targets doesn't matter.  On Protectors though, and especially in your opening, a Havoc'd Chaos Bolt will give you more damage throughout the fight.

 

Agree on Thok though, Destruction is an amazing spec this tier.

[Zagam 1,982]

Two comments:

 

Opener on Protectors MUST include Chaos Bolt.  Your Chaos Bolt will NEVER be more powerful than it is in the first 10-20 seconds of any fight.  You should always try to duplicate that effect by using Havoc. 

 

Normal Thok Destruction is quite viable much in the manner described.  His HP pool does not require a strategy involving 25 Acceleration stacks in Phase 1, so there's never a need to spell dance.  When you get to about 15-17 Acceleration stacks, his interrupts come every 1.7 seconds.  With latency, player human latency, and other factors, squeezing in anything is a chore.  In my attempts on Heroic Thok (of which Locky will vouch for as he has killed it), Destruction just isn't going to cut it over the other specs.  You also can't ask for Devotion Aura when you get a proc...same with Hand of Protection.  These effects should be used for healers to keep the raid alive, and asking for these CDs so you can use Chaos Bolt is both selfish and counterproductive.  As said before, it's perfectly reasonable to do on normal mode, but you might as well start practicing Demo or Affliction on normal mode now if you care to maximize your performance in Heroic.

[Omaric 246]

Zags, when are you using Unending Resolve for Thok?  Do you not use it for the interrupt protection?  Get super procs during high interrupt phase, pop Unending, go to town.

[Zagam 1,982]

I glyph it so I can use it every 2 minutes.  I try to line it up when I know Devo Aura is coming (it's like 7th in our cooldown rotation), but as Demo, I use it to unload Meta Soul Fires.  I've found just staying in Meta and spamming ToC and using Soul Fire during Fixate phase is easiest because ToC costs less leaving you in Metamorphosis longer thus reducing your need to cast.  I use UR typically to try to fish out a 2pc proc.

[Omaric 246]

Word.  I meant Destruction based on what Orie was asking though since you said it doesn't cut it against the others for you, but with proper CD's it isn't an issue.  Raid size must also be considered.  In 25 man you can stack more paladins.  We have a very nice window of interrupt protection in our raid due to all the Devo Auras, then throw in UR and you're golden.  :D

[Zagam 1,982]

I have no sympathy for 25 man raid comps.  You can bring 8 healers with 3 or 4 of them being Paladins and not worry about anything and have blanket interrupt protection for half of a bloody minute.  We have one Paladin, so that 6 seconds is rather lame.  Coupled with UR, wooo, 14 seconds. 

 

Thok 25 man has a CLEAR advantage over 10 man, just the same as I'm sure a fight like Galakras is easier with 10.  Then again, I haven't seen a hard enrage boss this tier yet, so I can't imagine any 25 mans dropping down to 4 healers to beat a hard enrage.  Maybe Garrosh?

[Vile 9]

We have 2 paladins in our 25 man setup and didn't spend all that many tries on Thok HC. However I feel 25 man having overall more cooldowns to chain is a clear advantage over 10 man.

 

I think BL did Garrosh HC with 4 healers, probably Method aswell. This is likely due to them being undergeared though, so those of us that have had numerous resets to gear up will probably run 5-6 healers.

[JvChequer 43]

I have no sympathy for 25 man raid comps.  You can bring 8 healers with 3 or 4 of them being Paladins and not worry about anything and have blanket interrupt protection for half of a bloody minute.  We have one Paladin, so that 6 seconds is rather lame.  Coupled with UR, wooo, 14 seconds. 

 

Thok 25 man has a CLEAR advantage over 10 man, just the same as I'm sure a fight like Galakras is easier with 10.  Then again, I haven't seen a hard enrage boss this tier yet, so I can't imagine any 25 mans dropping down to 4 healers to beat a hard enrage.  Maybe Garrosh?

Ppl gonna Rage, but 25man this patch looks a bit easier.

A lot of fights which u can use "odd" and mixed comps like Shamans, Iron Juggernaut, Thok, Garrosh.

Edited October 24, 2013 by JvChequer

[Omaric 246]

/RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEE

[Twona 1]

Put some attempts on heroic thok last night as affliction, but didn't really get time to try out another spec. Are demo locks on H Thok using UVLS still? (I haven't touched demo this patch yet). I can see the clear advantage it has over Aff regarding burst dps on bats and ToC Spam, but unsure if it will still out perform affliction

[Omaric 246]

I think you will be hard pressed to find any Demo locks pushing content with a UVLS.  It's not a terrible trinket, but with Affliction and Destruction being in the good state they are it's hard to justify opening yourself up to the RNG nature of it.  Most Demo locks on H Thok will be using PBI with either BBoY or KTT.

[Orei 2]

Oh I would never ask for devo just for myself, just time my unending resolve to be up right after devo goes up for the healers. Actually haven't looked in to H thok yet as my group just had our first night on H immersius. By the time we get to that point I will have re-familiarized myself with demo well enough to run that. 

 

I'll be sure to change up my protectors opener. Though I'm definitely going to be swapping to demo for that as well :P

[Twona 1]

I think you will be hard pressed to find any Demo locks pushing content with a UVLS.  It's not a terrible trinket, but with Affliction and Destruction being in the good state they are it's hard to justify opening yourself up to the RNG nature of it.  Most Demo locks on H Thok will be using PBI with either BBoY or KTT.

Have still yet to obtain a PBI~.

[Vile 9]

I can see the clear advantage it has over Aff regarding burst dps on bats and ToC Spam, but unsure if it will still out perform affliction

 

We run 2 Affliction, 1 Demo in my 25er. We do more damage overall as Affliction, but the Demo lock does around 40-50% of the damage (he saves all cooldowns for this, including Infernal) to the bats which pretty much makes them disappear in under 10 seconds together with the melee cleavers/hunters. And the bats can quickly become a nuisance if they're up for too long.

[Liquidsteel 279]

  When you get to about 15-17 Acceleration stacks, his interrupts come every 1.7 seconds.  With latency, player human latency, and other factors, squeezing in anything is a chore. 

 

I was under the impression (and it certainly feels this way) that the time between Screeches is never less than 2.4 seconds. I think it's once you get to like 8 stacks or something that he hits his max and just chain casts it with a short delay as he regens the energy. Could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's how it is.

 

Destruction is fine for thok although you can definitely play any spec you want, but don't say destro is useless on it. I know 3 people who have killed it as destro, two of whom ranked in the top 15 for all specs (top 15 contains 2 afflic locks and 2 destro locks, for what its worth). 

 

You can always fit in at least an incinerate between screeches, and you can spend backdraft charges on chaos bolt if you're close to capping or have a trinket proc.

[Nyanchan 2]

I was under the impression (and it certainly feels this way) that the time between Screeches is never less than 2.4 seconds. I think it's once you get to like 8 stacks or something that he hits his max and just chain casts it with a short delay as he regens the energy. Could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's how it is.

 

Destruction is fine for thok although you can definitely play any spec you want, but don't say destro is useless on it. I know 3 people who have killed it as destro, two of whom ranked in the top 15 for all specs (top 15 contains 2 afflic locks and 2 destro locks, for what its worth). 

 

You can always fit in at least an incinerate between screeches, and you can spend backdraft charges on chaos bolt if you're close to capping or have a trinket proc.

 

 

Totally agree, its all about cds management, so all 3 specs are viable, ive also tried all of them for quite a while. And i have noticed it all goes down to the raid composition, Demo is way better against bats cuz they can save cds and anhilate them, without even being interrupted like destro could. destro needs to use unending if they want to kill them fast, and affliction is the slowest of the three for them. Other than that I would say affli and demo are pretty even on the interrupts phase, while destro is a bit behind but still totally doable. 

 

Still i think demo sucks for the all the other fights (compared to destro). I only truly see demo being better than the others in thok and maybe pharagons. (I used to do them as demo till i realized how op destro can be)

[Zagam 1,982]

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f6yiew8lxuxziuob/details/8/?s=12081&e=12285

 

My normal parse on Thok.  Demonology is beastly.  Affliction looks better, and I don't see Destro pushing up as high, but all three are fine.  We wiped a lot on Heroic due to stupid shit, so hopefully I have him down next week. 

[Omaric 246]

Word.  I'm second guessing myself now though on whether it's worth applying Immolate on Klaxxi off-targets.  I mean, protectors it's a no brainer, the damage is always being put to use.  For Klaxxi they get healed back to full, so is the time spent generating embers through Immolating off-targets really helping to speed up the fight when it can be put to use on the main target.  It definitely looks good for padding, however.

 

I'm thinking I want to start using Havoc to apply Immolate to the other 2 targets and throw in an Incinerate as well.  Keep up RoF.  I'm thinking the only time I'll have Immolate running on the others is solely based on my Havoc CD.

Quoting myself to bring up Paragons again. I did it today with Destruction and using Havoc for Immolate/Incinerate on off-targets seems to be working very well:

 

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ma71ysu9zbn7qr8u/sum/damageDone/?s=8027&e=8544

Basically I just Havoc the kill target, cast Immolate on off-target 1, then cast Immolate/Incinerate on off-target 2. Maintain RoF as best you can on all the targets and just load CB's into the priority target. While waiting for the next priority target to hop down I would refresh Immolate and RoF on the remaining Klaxxi, then do it all again.

My DPS could have looked a lot more impressive if I wanted to launch CB's with Havoc, but fuck that. I didn't rank, but most of my damage was useful to the raid.

 

Edit:  I lied about ranking, our logs are always messed up and I edited the correct link.

[Omaric 246]

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/f6yiew8lxuxziuob/details/8/?s=12081&e=12285

 

My normal parse on Thok.  Demonology is beastly.  Affliction looks better, and I don't see Destro pushing up as high, but all three are fine.  We wiped a lot on Heroic due to stupid shit, so hopefully I have him down next week.

Looks good! Too bad you couldn't really ever get your 2pc to line up with DS.

[Zagam 1,982]

Something happened about 2/3 of the way through the fight for me to spike up to 800k without Bloodlust and hold it for about 20 seconds.  My guess is Dark Soul with PBI proc and some other mash of things.  This was the first time I've played Demo in 6 weeks, so I've got some room to improve.  I did accidentally clip my initial mega Doom about 2 seconds too early.  And I think he got out of range on me somewhere which hurt my Doom uptime.  I didn't use Soul Fire in Metamorphosis enough, Toxic Power proc had horrible uptime, and I may have overused Fel Flame instead of trying to weave in Soul Fires.  Lots to work on for me, but 377k in a single target fight is pretty sick.

[Muoric 3]

In my attempts on Heroic Thok (of which Locky will vouch for as he has killed it), Destruction just isn't going to cut it over the other specs.  You also can't ask for Devotion Aura when you get a proc...same with Hand of Protection.  These effects should be used for healers to keep the raid alive, and asking for these CDs so you can use Chaos Bolt is both selfish and counterproductive.  As said before, it's perfectly reasonable to do on normal mode, but you might as well start practicing Demo or Affliction on normal mode now if you care to maximize your performance in Heroic.

 

As much as I respect you otherwise I think I'm going to call bs on this one. Getting destro to be viable might not be trivial that I totally agree with, but it's def doable. Or I'd say 348k in a 8:39 fight is pretty good. Granted the guy has been running destro on the fight since start and is pretty damn well geared, but still.

 

This on 25 man, so your mileage will vary. Only 1 pally in the raid for devos though and the hops naturally went to healers for tranqs.

 

Personally starting to think that I should drop my os completely and going destro all the way. Use os for pvp or something .