T16 Warlock Style - Heroic & Mythic

[Zagam 1,982]

I don't see how they can with the item squish.  If they reset us to BC levels, I can't see a 6 item level increase not being worth more than it is today percentage based.  If they make it a 1 or 2 item level difference, sure. 

 

The moral of the story is to quit making Warforged/Thunderforged gear to incentivize 25 mans or reward them for their increased logicistal issues.  It's become pretty clear that 25 mans have had the advantage this tier by class stacking mechanics away.  Not sure they should get double rewards. 

 

I think WF/TF should go.

[Omaric 246]

You don't want to go the 10's/25's route Zagam.  I will beat you.

[Rakupenda 15]

I think WF/TF should go.

And the coin system?

[Zagam 1,982]

25s have such an advantage.  There are almost NO disadvantages this tier to fielding a team of 25. 

 

Coin system is fine...I enjoy it, especially for those on trial status in guilds.  Most guilds put trials on loot probation, but they can't control coins.  It makes it so recruits can still have chances at gear they used to not get.  For LFR, Flex, and normals, I think the coins are neat, personally customizable lottery tickets you sometimes win with.  They're FUN.  WF/TF pursuit is not FUN.

[Omaric 246]

Disadvantages like wishy-washy Prima Donna's who never stick around?  What about all the carries you have to go through to find someone good, who then turns into another Prima Donna?  Managing DKP and many more personalities that generally don't get along.  There are also disadvantages like communication.  Not everyone knows what is useful to say and Vent/Mumble can get clogged up.  Getting everyone on the same page strat-wise is more difficult, as there are certain personalities that are very capable of blending in to their surroundings and never tell people when they fuck up.  Yes, indeed disadvantages are hard to find in 25's.

 

10's are generally a more tight-knit group of people, at least in my experience, that are mostly on the same page as far as progression.  Finding 9 other people that are good at this game is far easier than finding 24 other people.  I understand the buff juggling can be annoying as hell, but that's pretty small fry compared to the ease in which everyone communicates.  I'm comparing competitive 25's to competitive 10's, I realize there are some garbage 10's out there that have all the same problems I listed in 25's because they're *just that bad*.

 

Sorry this is off-topic, but Zagam went there.

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm considering the differences between 10 and 25 as if it were a similarly skilled group in each.  25 is rewarded SOLELY on logistical issues, but those are issues you take on when you want to play with 24 others instead of 9 others.  10 mans face the same problems 25 teams do with bad players.  Solution?  Replace.  One recruitment officer handles ALL recruitment and keeps a steady flow of players in.  Competition breeds quality.  If you let complacent players stay on the roster, there is no motivation to continue getting better.  Our 13 roster 10 man has higher competition than any 25 man I was ever in.  25s tend to have personalities you "tolerate" more than you would in 10 man.  These are all choices and consequences you KNOW before you go into a 25 man setting.  Mumble/Vent clogging comes from a lack of leadership from your raid leader.  Chatter can happen on trash, but on bosses, only ONE person should ever be talking for more than 3 seconds at a time.  All other input should be relevant.  I've had to tell my own girl to shut up when she tried telling us why she died during a fight.  At that point, it's irrelevant information and focus needs to be maintained.  Getting people on the same strat is also dependent on your leadership and goes back to the recruitment.  Won't look up strats?  Won't perform?  Get replaced.  You can still have a casual and fun atmosphere while still demanding focus during boss attempts.

 

I'll also argue that the Prima Donna argument hurts 10 mans more than 25.  I can't count on one hand the number of times someone in my 10 man got gear and left or started bitching fests and was basically ousted by the guild.  Losing 1 member from a 10 man hurts MUCH more than losing 1 member from a 25 man, especially if that person is a tank or healer.  You see 10 man guilds crash all the time with some sort of drama. 

 

I see your points...trust me, I was in a 25 heroic progression guild, and most of the reasons you listed are why I left.  These included "officers" who didn't lead the way the roster wanted to be lead, shitty attitudes from some creating a toxic atmosphere, and just overall disdain.  My god, loot handling was an abortion, too.  We get less loot on 10 mans, but it feels like in 10 man, we know loot helps kill the next boss.  Seems like in 25, everyone just wants to be the top DPS.  I love a good debate about 10 v 25, but I will almost never say that 25s have a more difficult time overall than 10 mans.

[Hurtlocker 11]

W/T and HWF/HTF is blizz's way of keeping people engaged in content and yet still be rewarded; although, it has an rng factor. It can give a little extra to guilds (if rng is on their side) to help them get over those fights that they struggle on to keep progression moving.  Sure it has its shortcomings, but I don't think its all bad.

 

I came from a 10 man guild and the revolving door can hurt.  It is far easier to catch people up gearwise in 25 man than it is 10 unless your a rng champion.  In my 10 man, people got geared up and left only to be replaced by someone who was less geared than they were.  I do like raiding in 25 man.  You can do the same things in 10 man such as class stacking as in 25 man provided that your roster can handle it or you have solid alts for that purpose. Doesn't everyone want to be top dps in 10 man as well? Most of the time that's how your evaluated by most guilds provided that your not standing in stuff and making everyone else work harder just so you can be top.  Your faced with the same challenges baddies holding people back, revolving door and drama can break a 25 man just as much as it can a 10 man.  Some 25 man guilds break cause they hit a wall and then take their 10 or so best and do it as 10 man. 

 

I don't know if I can say one is better or easier then the other with one exception that composition can have more impact in 10 man than in 25 man.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Hurtlocker

[Nytemare 2]

Fire and Brimstone. The AoE modifier for one Ember to make your (weakened slightly) Conflagrate/Immolate/Incinerate hit all the targets in the radius.

 

 

I've also had more success with Destro on normal mode thok. Just make sure I've burnt through all my embers during DS and lower stacks. Once you can no longer fit a cb in between interupts you should still be able to fit on immo and incin casts and just alternate with fb. Glyphed unending resolve timed around devo when you get procs to avoid ember capping. 

 

 

Problem with that is he was refering to Normal Thok who is single target expect for the jailer and he was talking about P1 when he just be tanked, so why would I want to use FnB and weaken my damage of my spells when I can no longer get a CB off during that time? I think he ment Fel Flame as that would be only spell to use when you can only can't get anything off really with out Devo Aura, BOP, or UR up

[Rakupenda 15]

Problem with that is he was refering to Normal Thok who is single target expect for the jailer and he was talking about P1 when he just be tanked, so why would I want to use FnB and weaken my damage of my spells when I can no longer get a CB off during that time? I think he ment Fel Flame as that would be only spell to use when you can only can't get anything off really with out Devo Aura, BOP, or UR up

 

Already addressed by:

Yes this is correct, but I think the question of "FB?" occurred within the context of what he read by the OP.  I think the original poster meant FF, not FB.  The original comment was about normal mode Thok and with no adds in ph1 there would be no reason to F&B... unless he's using it to just dump an ember, which there are better ways to do that.

[Ilion 8]

I'm going to put this here because I'm a bastard... Last night I went 3/3 on rolls and got:

 

-H PBI

-H WF boots

-H WF ring

 

Nom to the nom friends.  BELIEVE!

 

 

So it's you who was stealing my luck last night.

[Omaric 246]

So it's you who was stealing my luck last night.

 

Sorry brochacho.

[Djargo 4]

So know we moved on to Spoils in my guild...i need tips....

 

HOW do u manage to not fall asleep on this fight? its so incredibly boring imo, just a big trash pull ._.

[mediocregatsby 18]

just wait until heroic galakras.

[Kazistrasz 216]

Djargo, by relishing in seeing your DPS skyrocket when you're casting nothing but CB and SB.

[Brown 14]

I just saw 10 v. 25 discussion a page ago and a part of me died because all that drops are plate DPS loot for my raid with basically zero need for it.

[Ilion 8]

Sorry brochacho.

 

No hay problema, buen señor.

 

Broken spanish feels so good.

[Wolland 1]

So know we moved on to Spoils in my guild...i need tips....

 

HOW do u manage to not fall asleep on this fight? its so incredibly boring imo, just a big trash pull ._.

 

I dunno, I'm usually already asleep at Immerseus...

[Zagam 1,982]

Well, I got Heroic Thok down last night.  Fight wasn't hard at all.  People just derped a lot.  Did the fight as Destruction...it's not as bad as I thought.  Proper use of UR and timing your spells appropriately makes a world of difference. 

 

Did some pulls (25) on Heroic Siegecrafter.  Sweet mother of all that is holy.  Could there be more shit to watch out for?

[JvChequer 43]

No hay problema, buen señor.

 

Broken spanish feels so good.

 

Posso começar a falar português aqui, só para o pessoal ir no Tradutor e mesmo assim ficar sem entender nada, gerando uma confusão bonita de se ver?

 

 

Btw, I'm at Heroic Malky and in our 8 tries was a total mess, Destro with Gosac + Soul Link it's pretty cool in this fight, and save some Shadowburns for adds really improve the dps.

 

But, damn, this fight it's really crazy with all the dmg going on and lighty balls come from the Hell and stuff.

[Soulzar 42]

Posso começar a falar português aqui, só para o pessoal ir no Tradutor e mesmo assim ficar sem entender nada, gerando uma confusão bonita de se ver?

 

 

Btw, I'm at Heroic Malky and in our 8 tries was a total mess, Destro with Gosac + Soul Link it's pretty cool in this fight, and save some Shadowburns for adds really improve the dps.

 

But, damn, this fight it's really crazy with all the dmg going on and lighty balls come from the Hell and stuff.

 

We actually just killed him last night!.  We had a 300k wipe a few pulls before.  This has been retarded tier, sub 5% wipes on every progression kill has been painful.

 

I actually decided to run with Sac Pact over Soul link on this.  Everything about 20% more HP, and more shield is awesome, yet I found that (once you get the fight mechanics down) the only time I took damage that was a threat was seconds into the fight when the fist knock up happens, which would knock me down in HP since my shield had not been build up yet enough to absorb entire chunk of dmg.  Shadow Bulwark with Sac Pact at start of our countdown would start the fights with a full shield, letting me easily soak the first hit with no dmg taken.

 

Above said, your healers may be getting your shield up faster (tranq on pull), removing the benefit of sac pact over 20% more shield later in fight.  Just an option to think about.

[Rakupenda 15]

Well, I got Heroic Thok down last night.  Fight wasn't hard at all.  People just derped a lot.  Did the fight as Destruction...it's not as bad as I thought.  Proper use of UR and timing your spells appropriately makes a world of difference. 

 

Did some pulls (25) on Heroic Siegecrafter.  Sweet mother of all that is holy.  Could there be more shit to watch out for?

Oooh yeah. Grats.

 

Yes there could be...wait for Paragons. Siegecrafter is still my favorite fight. It's easy once you get used to the half-dozen (scripted) mechanics. Try changing your belt choices -- we didn't see a drill till sub 15% and that was because there were two on the line.

[Liquidsteel 279]

 

I actually decided to run with Sac Pact over Soul link on this.  Everything about 20% more HP, and more shield is awesome, yet I found that (once you get the fight mechanics down) the only time I took damage that was a threat was seconds into the fight when the fist knock up happens, which would knock me down in HP since my shield had not been build up yet enough to absorb entire chunk of dmg.  Shadow Bulwark with Sac Pact at start of our countdown would start the fights with a full shield, letting me easily soak the first hit with no dmg taken.

 

Next time you do this fight, drop your portal somewhere to the side of you. When you get knocked up you can instantly port back down for 0 damage and an even smaller dps loss.

[Soulzar 42]

Next time you do this fight, drop your portal somewhere to the side of you. When you get knocked up you can instantly port back down for 0 damage and an even smaller dps loss.

 

What I posted above was not to deal with the fall damage, rather its the initial impact of the ability that will drop you to 50% HP if your lacking a shield.  I already have my port off to side to cover multiple sections of pie and port from knock up and prevent landing in the adds slowing aura.  This is also only relevant or needed (in my case) on pull and just before Blood Rage fades.  Any other time in teh fight your shield should be maxed and easily absorb the blow.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Soulzar

[Twona 1]

Anyone have any tips for baiting fixates on H Thok? If I get chosen for the second or third fixate, my gateway disappears and it's pretty much an instant wipe, unless our moonkin gets chosen for the hallway. This 100 yard gateway despawn thing is ridiculous.

[Rakupenda 15]

Anyone have any tips for baiting fixates on H Thok? If I get chosen for the second or third fixate, my gateway disappears and it's pretty much an instant wipe, unless our moonkin gets chosen for the hallway. This 100 yard gateway despawn thing is ridiculous.

You can bait it. In 25 man we have two groups of four? people at opposite ends of the map (a healer in each). Thok chooses someone from the furthest group. When the fixate ends, they run close to Thok so it chooses the other group (otherwise it will double-fixate the same group). Obviously you put non-locks in the groups.