Sin Rogue LF Improvements

[Moffli 0]

Hey,

Would love some help with my Rogue please.

I think I'm doing ok considering my gear but ofc there are improvements and I'm looking for all tips I can get!

Should I go exsang with more crit on my gear or just stick to Agonizing?

Below are my current logs:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/2971196/latest/

Armory: 

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Moffli/simple

[Derby 15]

3 hours ago, Moffli said:

Hey,

Would love some help with my Rogue please.

I think I'm doing ok considering my gear but ofc there are improvements and I'm looking for all tips I can get!

Should I go exsang with more crit on my gear or just stick to Agonizing?

Below are my current logs:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/2971196/latest/

Armory: 

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Moffli/simple

With the way your stats are allocated currently, give Master Poisoner a try.  You should see a noticeable bump to your single target damage.  Your crit and mastery stats are similar to mine, and MP performs much better for me relative to EP.  Once you hit 9,000 mastery, MP provides a permanent 15% damage boost which is like having EP up 100% of the time.  The trade-off is that you only get that full effect on targets to which you have applied a full 5-stack of AP, so your AOE damage will suffer somewhat.

I get around this by just swapping to Deadly Poison for things like outside phase on Il'gynoth and trash pulls for Mythic+ dungeons.  It might sound odd, but it's a DPS gain.

[Carrn 284]

3 hours ago, Derby said:

With the way your stats are allocated currently, give Master Poisoner a try.  You should see a noticeable bump to your single target damage.  Your crit and mastery stats are similar to mine, and MP performs much better for me relative to EP.  Once you hit 9,000 mastery, MP provides a permanent 15% damage boost which is like having EP up 100% of the time.  The trade-off is that you only get that full effect on targets to which you have applied a full 5-stack of AP, so your AOE damage will suffer somewhat.

I get around this by just swapping to Deadly Poison for things like outside phase on Il'gynoth and trash pulls for Mythic+ dungeons.  It might sound odd, but it's a DPS gain.

If that's the case you're likely not using EP correctly.

If it performs better for you personally then do what suits you best, but I have yet to see any data whatsoever that shows MP being a viable Tier 1 talent. It's an extremely situational thing at best

[Moffli 0]

Still the same opener?

 

I tried MP and 2-3 times in a row I did 320k single on a dummy. EP specc I fall off to around 285k.
I'm trying to pool to around 80 Energy when I play EP specc

[Derby 15]

6 hours ago, Carrn said:

If that's the case you're likely not using EP correctly.

If it performs better for you personally then do what suits you best, but I have yet to see any data whatsoever that shows MP being a viable Tier 1 talent. It's an extremely situational thing at best

6 hours ago, Carrn said:

 

Please enlighten me if I am missing something here; I, too, want to improve my play so I welcome being proven wrong :)

EDIT:  Now that I am home, I enlightened myself and realized I was mis-remembering my AP values.  I get 7% base, up to 8.6% with MP, for a gain of 8%.  That means EP only has to be up 53.34% of the time to overtake, which is pretty easy and makes it pull ahead for people who aren't completely ignoring crit.  Fixed the numbers below, and omitted the parts that are wrong.  Glad I made this post, or I may never have looked into the matter again.

I'm doing this from memory so apologies for slight inconsistencies in my recollection of AP damage bonuses, but let's discuss this for a minute because I am genuinely curious how you arrive at that conclusion.

Let's look at EP/AP versus MP/AP.  In his case, he should almost certainly be running one of the poison specs because of his inordinately high mastery value, lower crit value, and negligible versatility value.  I have less mastery than he does at 8,686 and my Agonizing Poison adds about 67% damage to everything I do per application (so at 5 stacks, 35% more damage).  When I take Master Poisoner, that puts the damage boost up to 8.58.6% per stack for a total of 43% at 5 stacks.

Using EP, I would still gain the mastery benefit to my AP putting it at 67% but I lose the extra 2.51.6%ish from MP; however, I gain 15% to all damage for 5 seconds every time I pop a finisher.  When EP is up, that's a total of 4550% increased damage.

Given we are talking single target, the question then becomes, "What uptime percentage must I maintain on EP in order for it to overtake a MP-boosted AP in damage augmentation?"  The answer is 853.34%, which is easy to maintain and should be possible for all but the most crit-poor rogues in the game significantly higher than most Rogues are able to maintain EP.  That figure will only increase as a player gains more mastery.

I get what you are saying about pooling energy for use during EP, but if you're doing that and it is costing you EP uptime then that is impacting your rupture damage which is a bad thing; also, since the MP bonus will never fall off as long as AP stacks remain on the target, you don't have to pool for anything other than cooldown burns.  The result is a smoother, simpler rotation with fewer moving parts and more resilience in the event of interruptions or mechanical complications.  (This is still true, but the breakpoint at which EP passes MP in damage is a lot lower than I thought so unless a player really struggles with EP uptime or can't handle the buff bar micro, EP will be better in most cases.)

I will absolutely grant that when dealing with a fight with lots of target-switching to low-health adds, AP builds in general suffer greatly and MP/AP in particular because EP will boost your damage the same regardless of how many poison stacks you have on the enemy.  Without a full 5-stack of AP, EP is always superior.  As a general rule, unless an add will live around 30 seconds or more, I don't switch to it.  There is no sense in trying to shoehorn a spec into a role for which it was not intended.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Derby
Fixing my dumbness

[Derby 15]

19 minutes ago, Moffli said:

Still the same opener?

 

I tried MP and 2-3 times in a row I did 320k single on a dummy. EP specc I fall off to around 285k.
I'm trying to pool to around 80 Energy when I play EP specc

I don't know what your opener is, but here's mine:

Pre-stealth, Pre-Pot

Garotte

Mutliate to 6

Vanish

Rupture

Vendetta+Kingsbane

Mutilate to 6

Envenom

Mutilate to 5 > Garotte > Envenom OR Mutilate to 6 > Envenom > Garotte

After that, keep Rupture/Garotte up and do 5-6CP Envenoms to keep Surge of Toxins rolling.

Unless you have Vendetta-reducing relics, when Kingsbane comes back up, use it immediately so it will line back up with your Vendetta when it comes off CD.  Try to have 6CP and an empty energy bar when the two line up so you can toss out a quick, high-duration envenom and maximize your poison applications during Kingsbane.

[Moffli 0]

I like the MP spec tbh. 

But there have to be something I am doing right/wrong. Or it's just pure RNG.

Dummy session 1: I fall off to 400k DMG
Dummy session 2: I fall off to 300k DMG

[Derby 15]

How long were the dummy sessions?  I usually do 15 minutes at a time to smooth out the RNG as best I can in a reasonable time span.

Interesting note:  If you are measuring with in-game damage meters, unless you're lightning quick about applying Rupture after you vanish, it'll reset your meter and you'll lose your data up to that point.  If there's a way to reliably prevent that from happening other than being super quick with button presses, fill me in because I'd love to know.

There is still a healthy serving of RNG in poison assassination.  A few I can think of off the top of my head:

How many Bag of Tricks procs did you get?  How many were during Vendetta?  How often did you proc Blood of the Assassinated?  How many of THOSE were during Vendetta?  How many times did you crit Envenom (and, once again, how many during Vendetta)?  How many times did a bad streak of Mutilate non-crits force you to either overflow CP, use an inefficient generator, or use a non-6 CP finisher?

[Moffli 0]

Good points.

Do you recommend going full Mastery or try to get some crit? From Enchants/Gems/Food etc

[Derby 15]

My pawn scores for Mastery and Crit are 0.82 and 0.77, respectively.  Both are very valuable.  You absolutely want to have a healthy crit percentage, as that is what will help you maintain Surge of Toxins.  As MP/AP, Rupture will still be providing the lion's share of your damage with Envenom following behind.  The more crit you have, the more Envenoms you can fit between Rupture refreshes and during Kingsbane which will both lead to greater damage.

I don't know what the sweet spots are.  Personally, I have been aiming for about 40-42% natural crit and 9,000 mastery as my stat value goals.

[Moffli 0]

5 minutes ago, Derby said:

My pawn scores for Mastery and Crit are 0.82 and 0.77, respectively.  Both are very valuable.  You absolutely want to have a healthy crit percentage, as that is what will help you maintain Surge of Toxins.  As MP/AP, Rupture will still be providing the lion's share of your damage with Envenom following behind.  The more crit you have, the more Envenoms you can fit between Rupture refreshes and during Kingsbane which will both lead to greater damage.

I don't know what the sweet spots are.  Personally, I have been aiming for about 40-42% natural crit and 9,000 mastery as my stat value goals.

Atm I am 33% crit and 125% mastery ( 8157 )

[lipsinch 46]

Derby, could you post your armory and some raid logs? I'm curious.

[Derby 15]

Sure thing, here you go.  We dropped mythic Ursoc last night after a cascade of near-misses.

Armory:  http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/spirestone/Derby/advanced

Ursoc logs:  https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/rjztGBdFH298qv4h#fight=34 (that's the kill parse, there are several close-but-no-cigar logs as well)

[Moffli 0]

I see alot of Rogues going EP & Exsang build.

How's that one? And what stats should I get in this? Crit/Versa?

[Derby 15]

3 minutes ago, Moffli said:

I see alot of Rogues going EP & Exsang build.

How's that one? And what stats should I get in this? Crit/Versa?

Our other (better than me) rogue runs that spec, and absolutely melts face with it.  On paper, AP starts pulling ahead as you gain mastery; however, what happens in the simulator and what happens for real aren't always the same.  He really likes EP/Ex, and does great with it.  It is a better spec for burst scenarios and fights with lots of lower-health adds to kill.

I don't know about stat weights on that spec.  Someone else can answer that better than I can.

[ef001730 6]

7 hours ago, Moffli said:

I see alot of Rogues going EP & Exsang build.

How's that one? And what stats should I get in this? Crit/Versa?

Versatility > Critical Strike. The other two stats are not worth getting. 

[Moffli 0]

I did some changes to my gear and tried the Exsang build.

 

I have to say that I pull off bigger numbers with this one!

[ef001730 6]

On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 6:09 AM, Moffli said:

I did some changes to my gear and tried the Exsang build.

 

I have to say that I pull off bigger numbers with this one!

Once you get more gear and Mastery the poison spec will start to shine 

[Moffli 0]

12 hours ago, ef001730 said:

Once you get more gear and Mastery the poison spec will start to shine 

I think so too, but I had 130% mastery and 37% crit and I felt it wasn't enough haha..

[ef001730 6]

9 hours ago, Moffli said:

I think so too, but I had 130% mastery and 37% crit and I felt it wasn't enough haha..

Those stats seem fine tbh so not sure what was going on