Frost vs Unholy after 7.1 Buffs

[Andell 0]

With the 7.1 buffs, is frost better than unholy now? I like unholy more, but whichever is better is the one I want to be, regardless of which I like more. Assuming I could play them at an equal skill level, which will put out more dps now? I'm more concerned about single target, but if possible I'd like to know how they compare in ST and AoE. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Andell

[Neeli 0]

50% to death coil is pretty nice tbh

[demonardvark 556]

10 minutes ago, Neeli said:

50% to death coil is pretty nice tbh

nope, 2% dps gain on single target only, unholys buff is non existant

As far as which spec is superior it will be a neck and neck race. They will be very close in most fights. Gradually overtime frost will probably probably PROBABLY become superior late into nighthold simply due to scaling stuff. So frankly at this point its really either or. A lot of parsing will come down to group comp and legendary acquisition. So, really you are fine either way frost or unholy (sadly we are still very likely the bottom of the melee dps chart :( ).

[Drtain 74]

Unholy is still better in real world performance. Frost can parse higher but only if you hit 8000 targets with sindragosa's fury

[Andell 0]

Thanks for the replies guys, I'll probably stay unholy for now then and hope that dps DK's as a whole can get buffs that bring us up to par with some other classes 

[demonardvark 556]

16 hours ago, Drtain said:

Unholy is still better in real world performance. Frost can parse higher but only if you hit 8000 targets with sindragosa's fury

actually its 7,998 targets, i simmed it out :P  although frost is simming ahead of unholy by a fair margin though, so we need to give it a week to get more parses.

OH SNAP 1000TH POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shells 64]

1 hour ago, demonardvark said:

actually its 7,998 targets, i simmed it out :P  although frost is simming ahead of unholy by a fair margin though, so we need to give it a week to get more parses.

OH SNAP 1000TH POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats some slacking alright. Well done on 1000 posts.

:)

[Andell 0]

7 hours ago, demonardvark said:

actually its 7,998 targets, i simmed it out :P  although frost is simming ahead of unholy by a fair margin though, so we need to give it a week to get more parses.

OH SNAP 1000TH POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Serious gratz on the 1000th post man, I've been reading your posts here since long before I've had my own account and they have been, in my humble opinion, by far the best posts I've seen. You've really helped me, and I imagine many others feel the same way.

Side note, despite being thoroughly convinced I liked unholy better (even saying I cant imagine going back in a different post), I actually find I like frost better in actual play (previous experience with frost in legion was only on target dummies) so I'll be switching to frost and cant wait to see it's developments in your 7.1 frost master thread.

Anyways, keep up the good work, and thanks so much for all the 1000 posts you've made, you definitely are extremely helpful to DK's everywhere.

[Drtain 74]

9 hours ago, demonardvark said:

actually its 7,998 targets, i simmed it out :P  although frost is simming ahead of unholy by a fair margin though, so we need to give it a week to get more parses.

OH SNAP 1000TH POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I say real world performance in the sense of without doing useless padding, unholy pulls ahead. Bursting Sores on like every fight out values Frosts, Frost Scythe unless they get a lot of KM procs. Parses will lead to people believing frost is better because of Sindragosa's breathe being used on lots of targets. I say this in the sense of on Mythic Nethendra if you hit 10 MCed players you will obviously parse higher than an unholy. If you use it on ichors, use it on spirits or the tons of adds in mythic dragons, or use it on spiders, using it on wisps in mythic cenarius, or on all the tentacles in Xavius. All of these will make frost look hugely better, while it for the most part just being padding and or not damage being used on boss. Plus double grips for unholy dk imo is to big to make me wanna go frost just because i could be sindragosa's furying like 20 mobs. All this being said if frost receives another buff, I do believe frost is be better.

The main reason I believe frost is still worse is just because of it's legendaries they are much worse than unholys, the BiS vs BiS are pretty similar in performance enhancements but their secondary legendary is much worse over all, like 30% increase on your CDs, Lots of extra runes Vs. Extra runes which really aren't as good as it may seem because of Frozen pulse, and 40% increased dmg on howling blast for 6 seconds every 20 seconds unless ur in short burst aoe phases again isn't that amazing. And having 1 extra charge of empower runic weapon again just isn't all that wowzors. 

All this being said frost def is very similar in performance now and very possibly will edge out on fights like Mythic ursoc even without padding with Sindragosa's breathe

[demonardvark 556]

1 hour ago, Drtain said:

I say real world performance in the sense of without doing useless padding, unholy pulls ahead. Bursting Sores on like every fight out values Frosts, Frost Scythe unless they get a lot of KM procs. Parses will lead to people believing frost is better because of Sindragosa's breathe being used on lots of targets. I say this in the sense of on Mythic Nethendra if you hit 10 MCed players you will obviously parse higher than an unholy. If you use it on ichors, use it on spirits or the tons of adds in mythic dragons, or use it on spiders, using it on wisps in mythic cenarius, or on all the tentacles in Xavius. All of these will make frost look hugely better, while it for the most part just being padding and or not damage being used on boss. Plus double grips for unholy dk imo is to big to make me wanna go frost just because i could be sindragosa's furying like 20 mobs. All this being said if frost receives another buff, I do believe frost is be better.

The main reason I believe frost is still worse is just because of it's legendaries they are much worse than unholys, the BiS vs BiS are pretty similar in performance enhancements but their secondary legendary is much worse over all, like 30% increase on your CDs, Lots of extra runes Vs. Extra runes which really aren't as good as it may seem because of Frozen pulse, and 40% increased dmg on howling blast for 6 seconds every 20 seconds unless ur in short burst aoe phases again isn't that amazing. And having 1 extra charge of empower runic weapon again just isn't all that wowzors. 

All this being said frost def is very similar in performance now and very possibly will edge out on fights like Mythic ursoc even without padding with Sindragosa's breathe

Frostscythe is actually garbage now in most cases for frost. With the buffs and changes many of the legendary items actually have a lot more leg room and usage. They also help with scaling infinitely. That's the other issue too is frost will consider to scale very well now moving back into masterfrost or in this case machinegun while unholy will unfortunately not scale well at all. In addition frosts tier gear is much more beneficial than unholy's which almost muddles the rotation bad. Instructors 4th is powerful for unholy but its all but mandatory now to keep it competitive. I will also freely disagree with the current icy listed ranking for frost's legendaries. With the right pairing OBRA is just super powered. 

Now, I do agree with you 100% on sims and parses being questionable. Parses frankly are BS with groups often helping by not attacking adds etc and sims can be messed up or have error. This is what made necroblight actually better in wod than defile despite sims (cough i invented that and proved it cough). Plus now with the frost buffs and frost looking so good many many people are going to switch to frost leading to sampling bias. 

However, in the PTR and active play testing we see frost being highly competitive to unholy. Even many sim programs have frost ahead with incorrect calculations on frozen pulse ie frost is winning with lower than realistic numbers. So with OBRA its a very close battle. However, over time the gap will grow big due to scaling and talent choice. Frost can switch back to machinegun while unholy has no where to go. 

so Tldr

right now its a close tie, however unholy can't scale and over time is going to fall further behind frost.

Also its kinda of a moot battle because we are the lowest 2 melee specs anyways XD. Frost got huge buffs, unholy got 2% buffs but overall we are still fairly low on the totem pole XD

[demonardvark 556]

3 hours ago, Andell said:

Serious gratz on the 1000th post man, I've been reading your posts here since long before I've had my own account and they have been, in my humble opinion, by far the best posts I've seen. You've really helped me, and I imagine many others feel the same way.

Side note, despite being thoroughly convinced I liked unholy better (even saying I cant imagine going back in a different post), I actually find I like frost better in actual play (previous experience with frost in legion was only on target dummies) so I'll be switching to frost and cant wait to see it's developments in your 7.1 frost master thread.

Anyways, keep up the good work, and thanks so much for all the 1000 posts you've made, you definitely are extremely helpful to DK's everywhere.

my answer to this post may seem expected, almost like a miss america contestant answer. but truly, thank you so much. I mean really I can't thank you enough. Posts like this are what keep me doing this. This is a lot of work, a lot of stress, with honestly no pay off XD I'm not a streamer trying to self advertise or someone trying to make money, I'm just a guy who really likes DKS and likes helping people. There can be a lot of stress, a lot of drama, a lot of BS. There have been many times i've considered quitting. It's messages like this that keep me going, and keep me doing what im doing. 

I love death knights, they are what made me play wow, and I love helping people. So every ah ha moment, or every smile I cause, really is rewarding to me, and why I keep doing what I'm doing. So with as much sincerity as I can type 

Thank you :D

[Drtain 74]

6 hours ago, demonardvark said:

Frostscythe is actually garbage now in most cases for frost. With the buffs and changes many of the legendary items actually have a lot more leg room and usage. They also help with scaling infinitely. That's the other issue too is frost will consider to scale very well now moving back into masterfrost or in this case machinegun while unholy will unfortunately not scale well at all. In addition frosts tier gear is much more beneficial than unholy's which almost muddles the rotation bad. Instructors 4th is powerful for unholy but its all but mandatory now to keep it competitive. I will also freely disagree with the current icy listed ranking for frost's legendaries. With the right pairing OBRA is just super powered. 

Now, I do agree with you 100% on sims and parses being questionable. Parses frankly are BS with groups often helping by not attacking adds etc and sims can be messed up or have error. This is what made necroblight actually better in wod than defile despite sims (cough i invented that and proved it cough). Plus now with the frost buffs and frost looking so good many many people are going to switch to frost leading to sampling bias. 

However, in the PTR and active play testing we see frost being highly competitive to unholy. Even many sim programs have frost ahead with incorrect calculations on frozen pulse ie frost is winning with lower than realistic numbers. So with OBRA its a very close battle. However, over time the gap will grow big due to scaling and talent choice. Frost can switch back to machinegun while unholy has no where to go. 

so Tldr

right now its a close tie, however unholy can't scale and over time is going to fall further behind frost.

Also its kinda of a moot battle because we are the lowest 2 melee specs anyways XD. Frost got huge buffs, unholy got 2% buffs but overall we are still fairly low on the totem pole XD

Yeah you're right with the scaling, i just meant as it currently stands in the current tier, though as we see many and many more people getting close to 890 i'm sure frost will become better (at least if their gear is optimized for it), i just meant as it stands currently.

[demonardvark 556]

4 hours ago, Drtain said:

Yeah you're right with the scaling, i just meant as it currently stands in the current tier, though as we see many and many more people getting close to 890 i'm sure frost will become better (at least if their gear is optimized for it), i just meant as it stands currently.

oh yeah currently its an exceedingly close battle :) depends heavily on stuff but in general an instructors 4th unholy can likely edge out frost easily atm or at least make keeping up exceedingly difficult. 

edit:

well after night one logs, it appears frost has a 5% dps lead. Now taking into effect sampling bias and other stat bs that people incorrectly talk about, we can say that difference is really marginal. 

[tuvarkz 0]

This is not going to be relevant until next year w/Nighthold, but it seems that the 4set got changed from death coil having a 50% chance to burst a FW to a 50% chance to infect the target with another FW. Will this cause any real dps change?

Edited October 29, 2016 by tuvarkz

[Drtain 74]

2 hours ago, tuvarkz said:

This is not going to be relevant until next year w/Nighthold, but it seems that the 4set got changed from death coil having a 50% chance to burst a FW to a 50% chance to infect the target with another FW. Will this cause any real dps change?

I think this will change will make the 4 set worse in my opinion, wound bursting is so useless, and runic corruptions ability to put on more runes is way better than a chance of 1 rune, like the old one is like a chance for like 2-6 wounds. And with the bracers you don't care about 1 wound randomly being applied, you need tons of runes. Though all this being said I think the change is -better- in the sense that it makes your rotation less funky because having to many runes leads to you over filling on one resource, esspecially with the sudden doom golden trait you rotation starts to get reallly weird imo you either have to much runic or to many runs or to many wounds with too much runic this just ugh it feels clunky at times.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Drtain

[demonardvark 556]

The consensus now seems to simply be play the spec you have fun with. They are both very close and will fluctuate around as to which one is better. So I think the best perspective here 

yay we now have 2 completely viable dps specs

[Zataron 5]

On 27.10.2016 at 1:08 AM, demonardvark said:

In addition frosts tier gear is much more beneficial than unholy's which almost muddles the rotation bad.

As was already mentioned in this thread, unholy's 4 part bonus was changed from bursting a wound to generating a wound. I think this is actually really powerful, especially if you have the bracers. Actually the 2 part bonus looks pretty nice as well with the bracers.

 

3 hours ago, Drtain said:

I think this will change will make the 4 set worse in my opinion, wound bursting is so useless, and runic corruptions ability to put on more runes is way better than a chance of 1 rune, like the old one is like a chance for like 2-6 wounds. And with the bracers you don't care about 1 wound randomly being applied, you need tons of runes. Though all this being said I think the change is -better- in the sense that it makes your rotation less funky because having to many runes leads to you over filling on one resource, esspecially with the sudden doom golden trait you rotation starts to get reallly weird imo you either have to much runic or to many runs or to many wounds with too much runic this just ugh it feels clunky at times.

I think you misunderstood the change. Yes, wound bursting on DC is useless. That's probably why they changed it to generate a wound instead.

[demonardvark 556]

21 minutes ago, Zataron said:

As was already mentioned in this thread, unholy's 4 part bonus was changed from bursting a wound to generating a wound. I think this is actually really powerful, especially if you have the bracers. Actually the 2 part bonus looks pretty nice as well with the bracers.

 

I think you misunderstood the change. Yes, wound bursting on DC is useless. That's probably why they changed it to generate a wound instead.

Lol you quoted a much older message posted before the change (or at least before I was aware of it XD) That being said looking at the change , I agree with you , it is incredibly beneficial and has great synergy with talents and instructors fourth. It also gives more value to death coil and the double doom perk. It adds another rng element certainly but that can be exciting to have everything line up perfectly especially on a big boss pull or something like that :)

[Drtain 74]

6 hours ago, Zataron said:

As was already mentioned in this thread, unholy's 4 part bonus was changed from bursting a wound to generating a wound. I think this is actually really powerful, especially if you have the bracers. Actually the 2 part bonus looks pretty nice as well with the bracers.

 

I think you misunderstood the change. Yes, wound bursting on DC is useless. That's probably why they changed it to generate a wound instead.

What i was was trying to say is that 1 wound extra is extremely  and is basically almost negligible compared to runic corruption which can offer you more wounds over all.

[Zataron 5]

26 minutes ago, Drtain said:

What i was was trying to say is that 1 wound extra is extremely  and is basically almost negligible compared to runic corruption which can offer you more wounds over all.

Oh I see what you're saying. Since the old 4 part bonus used to burst wounds, you had more chances at proccing the 2 part bonus. Let me put it this way: The total amount of wounds you generate and burst over the course of a fight will be much higher with the new 4 part. Therefore you do will do more damage and have more chances at runic corruption overall.

DC bursting a wound is almost useless, since bursting wounds was never the problem. Once you have high enough crit with castigator or the legendary bracers, wounds disappear fairly quickly. Generating wounds on the other hand happens more slowly and requires more runes.

[demonardvark 556]

39 minutes ago, Zataron said:

DC bursting a wound is almost useless, since bursting wounds was never the problem. Once you have high enough crit with castigator or the legendary bracers, wounds disappear fairly quickly. Generating wounds on the other hand happens more slowly and requires more runes.

More than that, DC bursting wounds really muked up the rotation. Unholy already has a lot of snap decision making to.....make and a lot of things to manage, having to worry about death coil dummping ruining a setup was no bueno.