Frost DK stat priorities.

[Omage 0]

Hello!

So I've had a look at the currently recomended stat priority for frost and I'm entierly confused by them.

Just to recap the order goes; Strength>Versatility>Crit>Haste>Mastery.

This doesn't make any sense to me. To start of how could mastery be last on this list? If you look at the top damage dealers for frost on really any type of encounter, patchwerk, cleave, massive aoe pulls whatever, the big dps is being output by things like Frostscythes, Frost Strike, Frozen Pulse, even things like Frost Breath, Frost Fever and Remorsless Winter can be seen doing a lot. All of these deal frost damage and scale well with mastery. Extremely well even. Of course Obliterate can't be forgotten by any means, and if it wasn't for the fact that it deals physical damage I doubt strength would be our best stat. But seeing as all of these deal frost damage, wich is directly increased by mastery, surely this can't be least important? 

Then we have crit as our supposed seccond best substat. Obliterate/Frostscythes both benefit from Killing Machine and won't need much crit chance. Everything else will benefit, of course, but the big ones for both pure single target and cleave won't. I thought this was why it was earlier recomended to stick to around 20% crit, that made perfect sense for me. You also get your Rime procs making crit pointless for Howling Blast, you don't want to use this without the proc in any case.

Then haste, this is put as seccond least important. How? Everything scales well with this. Rune regen, attack speed, some cd's etc. I mentioned earlier how well Frozen Pulse scales with mastery, but since it's based on auto attacks it also scales well with haste. This can't possible have so little importance.

Then versatiliy has been put as the best. How? Where did this 180 come from exactly? It scales well with only Obliterate really. Everything else benefits better from the haste/mastery combo. It's a fine stat in and of itself but not the most useful for Frost DK. You also have Pillar of Frost to use here for 20% strength every minute, this is all the Obliterate damage buffing you could ever need.

The stat priority I  would suggest would look something like Strength>Haste>Crit(to 20% ish, +-2 let's say)>Mastery>Versatility-More Crit.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Omage

[Baldurknight 0]

9 hours ago, Omage said:

Hello!

So I've had a look at the currently recomended stat priority for frost and I'm entierly confused by them.

Just to recap the order goes; Strength>Versatility>Crit>Haste>Mastery.

This doesn't make any sense to me. To start of how could mastery be last on this list? If you look at the top damage dealers for frost on really any type of encounter, patchwerk, cleave, massive aoe pulls whatever, the big dps is being output by things like Frostscythes, Frost Strike, Frozen Pulse, even things like Frost Breath, Frost Fever and Remorsless Winter can be seen doing a lot. All of these deal frost damage and scale well with mastery. Extremely well even. Of course Obliterate can't be forgotten by any means, and if it wasn't for the fact that it deals physical damage I doubt strength would be our best stat. But seeing as all of these deal frost damage, wich is directly increased by mastery, surely this can't be least important? 

Then we have crit as our supposed seccond best substat. Obliterate/Frostscythes

So Icyveins as of late has been posting inaccurate stat priorities because they based the prioritization off of 7.0. Granted always realize its a guideline not the gospel so to speak. The prioritization I use is as follows for secondary stats (primary isn't as relevant such as str, int, stam) Masery>Crit>Haste>Vers. 7.1 they increased frost dmg by some percentage, you have the ability to google it, and everything you do is frost dmg. 

[Mikar 2]

It SEEMS that the kind of 'generic' stat priority is Haste to EITHER 20 or 30, Crit to 25% then Mast/Vers. mast favours when you need to use Scythe, Vers for single target. Strength is above all of course.

[demonardvark 556]

On 10/28/2016 at 2:20 PM, Mikar said:

It SEEMS that the kind of 'generic' stat priority is Haste to EITHER 20 or 30, Crit to 25% then Mast/Vers. mast favours when you need to use Scythe, Vers for single target. Strength is above all of course.

The general idea here is correct.

The issue with frost stats right now is a single item can completely change your stat priority. So, self simming is the only 100% accurate way to see your individual weights. As it stands people are looking at obliterate centric builds more than scythe. Scythe is a good strong cleave talent, some say 3+ adds some say 4+ adds. Scythe builds liked crit and scythe builds liked mastery. What to obliterate builds like?

That's the issue. Mastery does very little for obliterate. Crit was really aimed more for frostscythe, due to its weakness without a critical hit. Using Runic attenuation leads to more frequent playstyle with fewer down GCDS making haste less super valuable, the only stat overall that really helps out OBRA in all ways is versatility. Hence, the sudden prioritization of it.

As Mikar said, frost will always need some requirement of Haste crit by default. Where that sweet point is now, can vary aggressively on your stats. For obliterate builds (OBRA) it's juggling around 20-25% haste, 20-25% crit, then stacking versatility. Self sims for me value haste more around 20% and crit a bit higher at 25%. This is with my gear. You may see very different results based upon yours. However, its a crude starting point. 

[mgibbonsjr 2]

6 hours ago, demonardvark said:

So, self simming is the only 100% accurate way to see your individual weights.

Is there a way to sim Frost right now? Looking at simcraft it doesn't look like it has been updated with the 7.1 changes for frost yet. Am I missing something or are you saying self sim as in go out in the world and test it yourself?

[demonardvark 556]

10 hours ago, mgibbonsjr said:

Is there a way to sim Frost right now? Looking at simcraft it doesn't look like it has been updated with the 7.1 changes for frost yet. Am I missing something or are you saying self sim as in go out in the world and test it yourself?

I could tell you how to self sim, but i won't >:D

instead i'll post this link

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/51a4p1/guide_to_simcrafting_dps/

Balthalzarzd? the name is so small i can't read it too well XD. THAT GUY did a really good tutorial to get your going. Its using programs and letting the program figure out for you the optimal stat weights for your perspective character. Now, sims do only go so far, so for you individually certain things may feel better, like more haste or more crit, so you do need to go smack a target dummy here and there, but this is a good intro guide to self simming :D

[mgibbonsjr 2]

8 hours ago, demonardvark said:

I could tell you how to self sim, but i won't >:D

instead i'll post this link

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/51a4p1/guide_to_simcrafting_dps/

Thanks for the info, but I know how to use SimCraft. In looking at the latest data from simcraft's website, it didn't have 7.1 changes implemented yet. So any self simulation is going to be inaccurate as it was still using data from 7.0.3. However, I see they updated simcraft today to 7.1 so happy simming everyone =0)

[demonardvark 556]

14 hours ago, mgibbonsjr said:

Thanks for the info, but I know how to use SimCraft. In looking at the latest data from simcraft's website, it didn't have 7.1 changes implemented yet. So any self simulation is going to be inaccurate as it was still using data from 7.0.3. However, I see they updated simcraft today to 7.1 so happy simming everyone =0)

yeah the full update was a little late due to a lot of bugs being in place. sadly some of the bugs were beneficial XD

[smtips 5]

Call me simple, but I don't get this from the posted stats.

1. Strength;
2. Haste (until 20%);
3. Critical Strike (until 25%);
4. Versatility; [How much versatility?]
5. Critical Strike >= Haste (until 30% Haste);
6. Mastery; [How much Mastery?]
7. Haste. [Why is this at No. 7 when it's at No. 2 above, I don't get it?]

Why is Haste til 20% shown in Step 2, then shown again as step 7 with no numbers? In Step 5, you say Crit should be higher than haste until 30% Haste, which to my simple country-boy mind seems to contradict Step 2 where you only should go to 20% haste. But then Step 7 has haste, indicating it should be the lowest priority? Sorry, I'm boggled.

These repeats of Crit and Haste in the list are just confusing to the average joe like me, and to my mind a more detailed explanation should be given in a paragraph below the list, not just the definition of the stats.

Could you please clarify some numbers as an example for say, iLvl 860? Perhaps I'm being too non-elitist, but I really don't want to spend all the time simming a character when I hardly ever raid, however I would like to have the best possible setup for playing solo and dungeons. And that's why I come here and trust Icy Veins over other sites, but this time I'm shaking my head trying to figure this out.

So you know, at iLvl 860 I have 25% Crit, 24% Haste, 33% Mastery, 0% Versatilty.

Edited November 2, 2016 by smtips

[jinsu2301 273]

53 minutes ago, smtips said:

These repeats of Crit and Haste in the list are just confusing to the average joe like me, and to my mind a more detailed explanation should be given in a paragraph below the list, not just the definition of the stats.

It's actually quite simple. Well, more or less.

If you are below 20% Haste, it is your most valuable secondary stat. You want that haste cap. Same goes for Crit, but since Haste is more important, if you have to choose, go for Haste. Once you have both of those caps, you go for Versatility. There is no cap, you just get as much as possible while keeping Haste and Crit at their minimum caps. However, with better gear, you will probably get more Crit and Haste even if you focus on Versatility. In that case, Crit is your second best, with Haste being a very close third until you reach 30% Haste. At that point, Mastery becomes better than Haste (but still worse than Crit) as long as you keep that second haste cap.

So, essentially you have four different stat priorities depending on the stats you already have.

If you are below 20% Haste: haste>crit>vers>mastery

Above 20% haste but below 25% crit: crit>vers>haste>mastery

Crit above 25 and Haste between 20 and 30: vers>crit=>haste>mastery

Crit above 25 and Haste above 30: vers>crit>mastery>haste

 

[smtips 5]

"Crit above 25 and Haste between 20 and 30: vers>crit=>haste>mastery"

It seems very unrealistic that if Crit is above 25 and Haste is between 20 and 30, that one would get Versatility to be ABOVE crit. That wold mean you'd need at least 25% Versatility BESIDES 25 crit and ~20 haste. This makes the class mastery be what...nothing, like my versatility is now? So then doesn't that negate the mastery pretty much altogether? Because what will you have left to put into Mastery? Yeah I know, not an exact science, but again to my simple mind I don't know how that can possible be attainable. That's why I was asking for ACTUAL EXAMPLE percentages, not all this confusion. These kind of numbers indicate pretty much a complete gear change (from pre-7.1 stats) to make Versatility be the master of all, again negating anything about the class mastery. So we basically throw mastery out the window as being a big boost to our frost damage, and use Versatility instead because now it gives MORE than Mastery does? Am I wrong? Does that not seem like a major screwup on Blizzard's part?

You explained it very well, but it's FAR from "simple, more or less" :)

Edited November 2, 2016 by smtips

[Keiida 1]

3 hours ago, smtips said:

"Crit above 25 and Haste between 20 and 30: vers>crit=>haste>mastery"

It seems very unrealistic that if Crit is above 25 and Haste is between 20 and 30, that one would get Versatility to be ABOVE crit. That wold mean you'd need at least 25% Versatility BESIDES 25 crit and ~20 haste. This makes the class mastery be what...nothing, like my versatility is now? So then doesn't that negate the mastery pretty much altogether? Because what will you have left to put into Mastery? Yeah I know, not an exact science, but again to my simple mind I don't know how that can possible be attainable. That's why I was asking for ACTUAL EXAMPLE percentages, not all this confusion. These kind of numbers indicate pretty much a complete gear change (from pre-7.1 stats) to make Versatility be the master of all, again negating anything about the class mastery. So we basically throw mastery out the window as being a big boost to our frost damage, and use Versatility instead because now it gives MORE than Mastery does? Am I wrong? Does that not seem like a major screwup on Blizzard's part?

You explained it very well, but it's FAR from "simple, more or less" :)

Hi,

No, this is not what i understand (sorry for my english, not my default language)

If your stats are CC above 25 and Haste between 20-30, then Versality is more usefull, but not until you reach Versa to 20-30% !! just each single point in Versa, until your other stats grow to 30+ %

Hope i'm right and this help

What i am trying to have :

haste = 20%

CC = 25-30%

Versa = 5 to 10% => Physical damage = Obliteration + Whites

Mastery = all i can with => Frost damage => Frost Strike + Howling Blast + Frost Fever + RW + Glacial Advance

Edited November 2, 2016 by Keiida

[Boogyness 1]

Stats to improve will hardly depends on your rotation and talents and current gear. There is no such kind of "one universal template" (and I'm glad there is not!).

I currently have 27%crit / 20%haste / 21% mastery

A Machine Gun build gives me Wdps ~= Str > Mastery > Haste ~= Vers > Crit

An Obliteration build give me  Str ~= Wdps > Vers ~= Mastery ~= Haste ~= Crit