Blood DK Guide Horribly Misleading

[Shine 144]

Can't we all just agree to disagree and move on. just do what you find best.

[Reniat 23]

Theres no harm in finding what's optimal. Min/maxing is at the heart of raiding, even if you don't personally care about being "100% optimal".

[Tarazet 144]

Theres no harm in finding what's optimal. Min/maxing is at the heart of raiding, even if you don't personally care about being "100% optimal".

There may be cases where the optimal solution is simply having the highest number of runes regenerated per encounter. But I think it would take an encounter where the overall damage intake is relatively low, but the enrage is extremely tight - meaning you sacrifice a healer and eke out every last bit of DPS you possibly can. That hasn't been the case in T15. And even then, you're better off sticking with BT and stacking Haste.

[Jadawin 0]

Just because I had 77% or whatever blood charge uptime doesn't mean that i had 77% of the fight with an FU pair. How much of that 77% was i below 10 charges? (hint: alot).

"Your analogy is flawed because your are using the premise that 1 RC is 100% proc chance and will pay your rent(give you a DS) in full right away when 1 proc doesnt actually give you 100% of a DS it just moves you close to your next DS. However I do understand your analogy."

if you think the analogy is flawed, then you misunderstand completely. I was not making a 1 to 1 and onto comparison between the $1,500 lump sum and runic corruptions proc rate, or a 1 to 1 and onto comparison between the $500 monthly payment and BT or RE. I was simply showing a mathematical model where you couldn't find the optimal choice through algebra alone. Now, just to see if you really get what i'm saying, I want you to tell me what is the optimal choice in that story I told, then I want you to try and prove that with math. You don't have to succeed, but I want you to try.

Also, tone down the "everyone is a sheep" attitude a bit. Just because people read a guide doesn't mean they can't think for themselves. I am one of the top DK tanks in the world, and guess what? I first learned how to play reading guides. Did I do all the math to back up the guide I was following? nope. Back then I wasn't theorycrafting so I couldn't have been bothered. So please tone down the high and mighty "I think for myself" attitude. I respect your attempt at thoerycrafting but that doesn't make you any more entitled to post than anyone else.

Anyway, please answer the question I presented at the top of this post before making another wall of text.

Who knows how many BT charges you had does it really matter? There are literally millions of iterations I was simply showing that in situations either one of the talents could move you to your next DS faster depending on the resources pooled at said time. We can both agree that as you have more BT charges and more RP the scale tips in favor of BT due to the 100% return rate. My only point was that I would give a slight edge to BT because for a large portion of the fight you already had some of them saved up regardless of how many.

Yeah I understand your story 100% and it really doesnt matter it doesnt really have anything to do with the issue we are discusss however the most optimal idea would be to put a new security deposit down and get a new pad and bank 1500bucks rofl =-)

And really did I call these people out or did they come and start say stuff like

Go read the guide again...

"Blood Tap provides you with a lot of control over your rune situation, and this is its main strength. It allows you to chain a number of Death Strikes (by using up your Blood Tap charges), and this is of particular benefit if you want to stack Mastery: Blood Shield on you before a damaging mechanic strikes.

Runic Corruption is more stable, and over the course of the fight will provide you with roughly the same amount of Death Strikes as Blood Tap. It also has the benefit of boosting your DPS somewhat."

RC will provide you with ROUGHLY the same amount as DS's. ROUGHLY. He also mentions that BT gives you the most control. Also...your original argument was about RE being the best and now you have switched to BT. Just let it go. You like to play different than the guide says...you think you are right and the moderator is wrong. It's fine.

Also, maybe you should post your own logs to back up what you think is right...might be more convincing than posting the moderators.

Did I go at this guy or did he go at me for really being into the math of DK tanking and asking albeit a ton of questions about logic and math? Yeah you are right everyone has 100% the right to post but if you are going to post I would rather it be something in regards to why im wrong or why my logic or math is incorrect just going to the DK guide and copy/paste.

Here are the simple facts I think that I have quite clearly made my case for in previous posts some of which you have agreed with some maybe not.

1. BT gives more DS than RC however DS/min is not always the best metric

2. BT and RC offer almost identical ability to pool DS resources and react to spikes and BT even bit ahead due to BT charges.

3. BT will generate more DS/min while at UxFxxx because it generates more DS/min baseline.

4. The more DS you perform at UxFxxx will only serve to mitigate future spikes

5. Out of the millions of possible iterations BT and RC will both have situations where 1 is better than the other so this is a wash.

If all of these are true statements and I believe they are then BT would be a better survival talent and your reasoning backs it up 100%. You say that the complete power of RC is always being able to have UxFxxx up. You can do this and more with BT and generate more extra DS shields over the course of a fight smoothing out any damage you receive.

I will make 1 last statement that has been tossed around so much and is so misconstrued by a good portion of the DK tanking community. I hear people say all the time that DS/min isnt an important metric because being able to react heal to spikes is what makes a dk good. I will agree with this 50% and modify the statement to be this.

While burning all of your resources as soon as they are able to obtain the most DS/min is a bad metric to play if you are able to maintain an UF pair of runes ready for reactive healing from spikes then your number 1 priority would be to execute as many DS/min while maintaining that DS resource to smooth out as much damage as possible prior to the spike and ultimately the spike itself. Executing this play style will give you the best of both worlds of DS/min while maintaining the ability to reactively heal for spikes would make you the total packed of damage smoothing and spike healing/mitigation.

I can honestly find no flaw in that logic what so ever and BT will do this better than RC. I have yet to see anything to the contrary of this line of thinking in any way.

[Reniat 23]

Believe it or not, you are still talking about about DS/min makign something better. You are saying, whether you realize it or not, that more resources over time is undoubtedly better, which is just not true in this case. Also, if i remember correctly you originally started this thread with "RE over everything else". You also didn't take my challenge of trying to math out the fairy tale, and it definitely does have something to do with our discussion.

I'm gonna ask again, try to math out the fairy tale like I asked, and if you make another wall of text before doing so i'm going to lock the thread.

[Jadawin 0]

If you look back my main statement was the RC was the worst talent due to total resources. Now we have seen it sway from the comparison of RE or BT in regards to rotations and reactive healing and while I thought that RE could be close to as effective if played properly I conceded that you would not be able to accomplish the Pooling of 1 complete UF pair for a DS as consistently as with BT or RC. That however does not change the original statement about RC not returning as many resources thus not being as good.

And I am not saying that more resources over time are better im saying that if you are able to maintain the reactive healing of RC with BT yet generate more DS it only serves to make you more survivable. You are saying that because there is a 45% chance that 1 RS will move me closer to my next DS(which is just DS/min in this situation FYI) that it provides the same amount of survival which isnt true.

Your entire defense of your stance on this theory is so asinine that no intelligent person would agree with it. You say well DS/min mean nothing and the amount of DS runes you generate over the course of a fight are not important because 1 proc of RC has a chance to move you to your next DS.which mean.......that one RC has a chance to increase your DS/min faster than 1 proc of BT. You are championing for DS/min from RC for the vacum scenario where it actually will generate your next DS faster thus increasing your DS/min in that one vacum example. Then you are telling me that DS/min isnt the metric that you should measure the talents by. The only situation where this would be applicable is when you have already used your reactive DS and are at xxxxxx then all it turns into is a DS rune regeneration race and guess what RC is the slowest horse in the race.

You cant argue for DS/min then say that DS/min is stupid and you dont want to hear about it anymore.

You are actually telling me that if you are tanking a boss and you are able to stay at UxFxxx constantly but one person does 10 DS and one person does 15 that the one who did 10 is just as equally equipped for survival as the 1 who executed 15 because ..........1 RS has a 45% chance to move you closer to your next DS while the other talent 1 RS wont move you closer to your next DS right away because of the charge system.

Its cool though completely ignore all of the other iterations where BT is already at 6/8 blood charges or you dont proc or anything other that the absolutely best possible scenario where you proc and you move closer while BT doesnt actually get you there faster. Because there are just as many situations where BT will get you to your next DS faster and I showed a very simple example.

I guess my biggest disappointment is that the self proclaimed "one of the best DK tanks in the world"' after hearing a very logical and math driven argument on the survival capabilities of DK talent choices your only retort was

Believe it or not, you are still talking about about DS/min makign something better. You are saying, whether you realize it or not, that more resources over time is undoubtedly better, which is just not true in this case. Also, if i remember correctly you originally started this thread with "RE over everything else". You also didn't take my challenge of trying to math out the fairy tale, and it definitely does have something to do with our discussion.

I'm gonna ask again, try to math out the fairy tale like I asked, and if you make another wall of text before doing so i'm going to lock the thread.

So go ahead and lock the thread because its quite obvious that you have actually brought zero to the table in terms of proving your idea about RC providing the same survival because your only arguement is that

RC has the chance with 1 proc to move you closer to your next DS............if that arguments logic doesnt make your head explode with your DS/min hypocrisy then there is no reason to continue.

So lock away the thread I quite honestly expected more from "one of the best DKs in the world" but I guess at the end of the day through it all the choice to prove your point logically or lock a thread and talk about anecdotal math was made.

Lock the thread this one thread wont really matter people will continue to blindly follow you and proclaim your ideas and values as true no matter if they are true or not so it doesnt matter.

The sheer fact that you were in any way unable to refute my very simple logic on BT vs RC before you threatened to lock the thread unless I do some silly math problem for you 100% undeniably proves that you are just unwilling to concede the fact that over the course of any fight on average that BT will offer more survival than RC.

Good game I guess I expected more when I came to a theory crafting forum but in the end "im one of the best DK tanks in the world" listen to me or I will lock the thread. Looks like Icy veins picked a great mod and role model for the DK community.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Jadawin

[Reniat 23]

here is an out of context reason why RC is perfectly viable

The reason RC is good is because it only requires 1 RS to have a 45% chance to get a reduced DS interval. You have a single RS? you have a chance at reducing the interval. With BT there is some build up and it takes 5 runes strikes to get a reduced interval (granted that interval is completely removed since you get a full DS back). This is why we say RC gives consistency (and if you show me DS/min or resources per RS one more time...) and BT gives control. You could re-word it as RC gives regularity and frequency and BT gives control. Unless you have a really unlucky streak, you will get RC procs far more often than you will have 10+ stacks of BT, and while 10 stacks of BT is worth more mathematically than a single RC proc, the result is nearly the same: reduced DS gap. And the frequent reduced DS gap is what makes RC good, and the controlled reduced DS gap is what makes BT good. They are both great talents and you are fine with either at any level (not counting any mechanics that favor one) so you're fine as long as you don't pick RE.

The reason I was having you math out my story was to help you understand what I was showing you. The discrete structures behind theorycrafting that aren't math based is something that takes a bit of time to understand if you're not familiar with them. I didn't fully get an "academic" understanding until I actually took discrete in college. I promise you i'm not trying to be condescending by having you math out my story, but only trying to help you get to the point where you are able to look at things from both a mathematical PoV AND an abstract one, so you can combine the two to find what is truly optimal. You keep bringing up resources, but I promise you, on all my success as a high end raider, you can find the optimal t75 talent using 0 algebraic analysis of resources. Now you wouldn't fully follow it without at least looking at the algebra behind it, but in this case the math does not influence because 1 talent does not provide SO many more resources that it becomes optimal despite stylistic and abstract failures as they pertain to our class and how we optimally death strike.

No one says you have to follow what I say because I say it, but you need to at least attempt to try and move away from your purely math based point of view if you're going to discuss something at a high enough level that the abstracts become as important as the raw numbers.

[Drafty53 17]

Good game I guess I expected more when I came to a theory crafting forum but in the end "im one of the best DK tanks in the world" listen to me or I will lock the thread. Looks like Icy veins picked a great mod and role model for the DK community.

Please just do everyone a favor and stop posting. You clearly dodge every attempt Reniat, or anyone for that matter, has tried to reason with you. You are an awesome blood dk who knows his class the best. Woopdeedoo...And for the record almost everyone who has posted on this thread + everyone in the DK community appreciates what Reniat does for blood DK's and this forum. When you write your own coherent guide with the experience of high end raiding, theorycrafting and testing to back it up, come back and let us all know.

[Stoove 347]

I have to say that Reniat seems to be posting very reasonably here. If he feels that someone is not approaching the topic of the thread with the right attitude then he is perfectly justified providing that he has tried to reason it out. I think that if it's got to the point where anybody is asking anybody to "just stop posing" then it is probably time to close the thread. If Reniat decides that he would like to reopen it, that is at his discretion.