heroes PTR Patch Notes: November 7

[Stan 5,240]

A new patch has been deployed to Public Test Realms and it contains Varian, revamped tutorials, Blackheart's Revenge Brawl and some Hero changes.

If you're excited about the Varian Hero announcement from BlizzCon, you don't have to wait any longer. He's now available on test realms and if you purchase him now, he will unlock automatically once the Patch goes live next week.

Blizzard Entertainment

General

New Brawl: Blackheart’s Revenge

Captain Blackheart has shoved off in his ghost ship, Blackheart’s Revenge, to blow the docks to smithereens! Attack Blackheart’s ship to stop his assault and send him to a watery grave, or clear the path of enemies to defend him as he carries out his mission.

• Blackheart’s Revenge is a new Arena Battleground that introduces attack/defend-style mechanics and asymmetric gameplay to Heroes of the Storm. Only the attacking team has a Core, and they must stop Blackheart before sails across the battleground to destroy it.
  • Shuffle Pick: Pick one of three randomly selected Heroes, and then duke it out against the enemy team to attack or defend Blackheart. Teams swap at the end of each round, and the first team to complete their objective twice will claim victory.
  • Attack: The attacking team must gather cannonballs, load them into cannons that line the docks, and fire on Blackheart’s Revenge to sink the ship before it reaches their Core.
  • Defend: Kill attacking Heroes to prevent them from firing the cannons and see to it that Blackheart’s ship reaches the Core in-tact.
• Click the Brawl Info button in the lower-left corner of the screen to learn detailed information about the currently active Brawl.

Revamped Tutorial

• The Heroes of the Storm Tutorial has been reworked and split into two categories: Tutorial and Battleground Training.
  • The Tutorial covers the basics of how to play Heroes of the Storm, including combat, team leveling, Talents, and Mercenary Camps.
  • Battleground Training acquaints players with the importance of Battleground Objectives.
• Players can now play through the Tutorial and Battleground Training using three different Heroes: Jaina, Muradin, and Tyrande.
  • New players will be able add one of these 3 Heroes to their Hero Collections for free!
• Revisit the Tutorials or Challenges at any time by opening the Main Menu (ESC) and clicking the Tutorials or Challenges buttons.

New Hero: Varian

Few would have expected that the gladiator known only as Lo’Gosh was in truth the missing ruler of Stormwind, Varian Wrynn. Now the High King of the Alliance, his every action shapes the destiny of Azeroth itself.

Trait 

• Heroic Strike
  • Every 18 seconds, Varian’s next Basic Attack deals bonus damage. Each Basic Attack reduces this cooldown by 2 seconds.

Basic Abilities

• Lion’s Fang (Q)
  • Launch a shockwave that travels in a straight line, dealing damage and slowing enemies by 30% for 1.5 seconds.
• Parry (W)
  • Parry all incoming Basic Attacks for 1.25 seconds, reducing their damage by 100%.
• Charge (E)
  • Charge to the target enemy, dealing light damage and slowing them by 75% for 1 second.

Heroic Abilities

• Taunt (R)
  • Force the target enemy Hero to attack Varian for 1.25 seconds.
  • Passive: Maximum Health increased by 50%.
  • Passive: Attack speed reduced by 25%.
• Colossus Smash (R)
  • Smash the target enemy, dealing damage and making them Vulnerable for 3 seconds.
  • Passive: Base Attack Damage increased by 75%.
  • Passive: Maximum Health reduced by 10%.
• Twin Blades of Fury (Passive)
  • Basic Attacks reduce Heroic Strike’s cooldown by 9 seconds, and increase Varian’s movement speed by 30% for 2 seconds.
  • Passive: Attack speed increased by 100%.
  • Passive: Base Attack Damage decreased by 25%.

Art

General

• Alarak: The red and green icons for Alarak’s Sustaining Power and Negatively Charged Talents have been swapped.
• Minions: Catapults have received updated minimap icons in order to better distinguish them from normal Minions.
• Rexxar: Misha now has her own minimap icon.

Battlegrounds

• Dragon Shire: Dragon Shire has received additional optimization improvements.

Heroes, Abilities, and Talents

• Kharazim: Kharazim has received updated visual effects to coincide with re-worked Abilities and Talents.
• The following Heroes, Abilities, and Talents have received updated visual effects:
  • Mercenary Lord and Promote Talents
  • Blood Elf Tyrande: Sentinel
  • Johanna: Falling Sword
  • Nova: Triple Tap will now appear team-colored.
  • Raynor: Adrenaline Rush will now better visually indicate when its Healing effects are available.
• The following Hero Abilities have received optimization improvements:
  • Artanis: Purifier Beam
  • Kerrigan: Maelstrom
  • Malfurion: Tranquility
  • Tracer: Basic Attack

Shop

The following changes will take place in the Shop once the Public Test Realm is brought offline and the patch is officially released to the live version of Heroes of the Storm next week.

Bundles

• New Bundles
  • Lo’Gosh Varian Bundle – Available until November 29, 2016
• Removed Bundles
  • Masters of Magic Bundle
  • Ultimate Masters of Magic Bundle

New Hero 

• Varian has been added to the in-game Shop.

Mounts

• New Mounts
  • Orochi Hovercycle – Available exclusively by completing 30 games with a friend during the Nexus Challenge, which starts the week of November 15 and lasts until January 4.
• Returning Mounts
  • Magic Carpet
• Removed Mounts
  • Butcher’s Beast

Skins

• Lo’Gosh Varian
• Master Varian

Price Reductions

• Leoric’s prices reduced to $8.49 USD and 7,000 Gold.

Sound

General

• New sound effects have been added to coincide with the re-worked Tutorial experience.

Heroes, Abilities, and Talents

• Kharazim has received updated sound effects to coincide with his re-worked Abilities and Talents. 

User Interface

General

• AFK Detection Added to Heroes Brawl
  • AFK detection has been added to Heroes Brawl. Players who become inactive during a Brawl will be disconnected from the match.
• New Player Daily Quests
  • Prior to reaching account level 10, players will now receive a “Play 3 vs. A.I. Games” Daily Quest instead of the “Play 3 Games” quest.

Auto Select

• Players can now select their preferred roles when queuing as Auto-Select in Quick Match and Versus A.I. games.
• Pick the Auto Select Hero, and then use the new row of Role buttons added to the Hero Select screen to choose one or more preferred Hero Roles.
  • Instead of choosing by role, players may also queue for Auto Select as the Heroes they’ve selected as favorites.
  • In order to queue as Auto Select in a preferred role or with favorites, the selection must total at least 5 Heroes.

MVP and Commendations

• A number of additional Commendations have been added in order to help recognize a wider variety of in-game achievements. 

Design & Gameplay

Stealth

• Abilities that reveal Stealthed/Cloaked Heroes will no longer remove the Stealth/Cloak effect, but will instead temporarily reveal the cloaked Hero.
• The following talents now function while under the effects of Stealth granted by another player (ex: Tyrande’s Shadowstalk):
  • Nova
    • Tactical Espionage
    • Advanced Cloaking
    • Covert Ops
  • Samuro
    • Way of the Wind
    • Harsh Winds

Developer Comments:  Some revealers, like Oracle from Tassadar and now Scouting Drone, are very binary in their ability to reveal Heroes, by design. But their purpose is to provide scouting and position of the enemy, and not to negate the effects of Talents or Abilities that rely on Stealth to provide their benefit. While examining these conditional Talents, we decided that it would be more interesting to allow synergies between external sources of Stealth these Talents. We like that choices like Tyrande’s Shadowstalk or Medivh’s Invisibility become more interesting if you have allies that gain additional benefits from Stealth on your team. 

Battlegrounds

Dragon Shire

• Dragon Knight
  • Rubble Maker (Passive) now also reduces the duration of Blinds by 50%

Garden of Terror

• Garden Terror
  • Terror of the Garden (Passive) now also reduces the duration of Blinds by 50%

Talents

Scouting Drone

• Now also reveals Stealthed/Cloaked Heroes

Seasoned Marksman

• Basic Attack damage can now be gained past the previous cap of 40 bonus damage
• Activated Attack Speed bonus increased from 30 to 40%

Heroes

 

Assassin

Alarak

Abilities

• Lightning Surge (E)
  • Range increased by roughly 10%

Illidan

Talents

• Level 1
  • Unending Hatred (Passive)
    • Increased Basic Attack damage bonus upon quest completion from 10 to 20
  • Battered Assault (W)
    • Added functionality:
      • Now also increases the duration of Sweeping Strike from 3 to 5 seconds
    • Increased the bonus damage gained from hitting 2+ Heroes with Sweeping Strike from 125 to 150%
• Level 4
  • Unbound (W)
    • No longer reduces the cooldown of Sweeping Strike
    • Added Functionality:
      • Quest: After hitting 30 Heroes with Sweeping Strike, gain a second charge of Sweeping Strike
• Level 7
  • Thirsting Blade (Trait)
    • Increases healing amount of 50 to 60%
• Level 16
  • Marked for Death (Q)
    • Damage reduced from 225 to 180

Developer Comments:  We’re aiming to make a few of the earlier talent choices for Illidan more competitive options, and open up a greater variety of playstyles for Illidan players. By increasing the bonus of Unending Hatred, we think farming Minion waves and Hunting into fights will be enticing on certain Battlegrounds. By allowing Unbound to grant 2 charges of Sweeping Strike, we think that Talents like Battered Assault and Blades of Azzinoth will showcase an Illidan that can dance across an enemy team and do a lot of damage while doing so.

Raynor

Abilities

• Adrenaline Rush (E)
  • Now displays a visual effect under Raynor's feet to indicate that Adrenaline Rush is off cooldown

Thrall

Abilities

• Earthquake (R)
  • Added functionality:
    • Now deals 50 damage to Heroes with each pulse (will now trigger Frostwolf Resilience)
• Sundering (R)
  • Stun duration reduced from 1.25 to 1 seconds

Developer Comments:  We have mentioned before that sometimes we will stubbornly hold on making balance changes to some Heroic abilities because we believe they are actually very powerful in their current form, even if they are not currently seeing much play. This has been the case with Earthquake, but Sunder has consistently been the go-to pick since Thrall’s inception. We hope this change will help shake up the pick rates of Thrall’s Heroic abilities.

Zeratul

Stats

• Base Maximum Health increased from 1545 to 1622
• Base Health Regen increased from 3.22 to 3.38

Abilities

• Singularity Spike (W)
  • Mana cost increased from 60 to 80
• Blink (E)
  • Mana cost reduced from 75 to 50

Talents

• Level 1
  • Vorpal Blade (Active)
    • Moved from level 4
  • New Talent: Shadow Hunter (Passive)
    • Gather Regeneration Globes to lower the Mana cost of Blink by 2.  After gathering 20 Regeneration Globes, your Basic Attacks reduce the cooldown of Blink by .75 seconds.
  • Block (Passive)
    • Removed
  • Regeneration Master (Passive)
    • Removed
  • Rapid Displacement (E)
    • Removed
  • Seasoned Marksman (Passive)
    • Removed
• Level 4
  • New Talent: Combo Slash (Passive)
    • After using an ability, your next auto-attack within 6 seconds deals 40% more damage.
  • New Talent: Grim Task (Passive)
    • Hero Takedowns increase Ability Power by 4%, up to a total of 40%.  This bonus Ability Power is lost on death.
  • Rending Cleave (Q)
    • Moved from level 16
    • Damage is now dealt over 3 seconds from 5
    • Damage reduced from 50 to 40%
• Level 7
  • New Talent: Slip into Shadow (E)
    • Your Blink has 2 charges and its cooldown is increased by 8 seconds.
  • New Talent: Seeker in the Dark (W)
    • Your Singularity Spike takes 50% longer to explode, and can be reactivated while it is attached to an enemy to teleport to them.  After reactivation, your Movement Speed is increased by 30% for 3 seconds.
  • Wormhole (E)
    • Moved from level 13
  • First Aid (Active)
    • Removed
  • Follow Through (Passive)
    • Removed
  • Shadow Spike (W)
    • Removed
  • Searing Attacks (Active)
    • Removed
• Level 13
  • New Talent: Shroud of Adun (Passive)
    • You gain a shield equal to 15% of your Maximum Health over 5 seconds while under Permanent Cloak.
  • Vigorous Strike (Passive)
    • Renamed to Mending Strikes
    • Moved from level 4
    • Healing amount increased from 25 to 40%
  • Giantkiller (Passive)
    • Removed
  • Burning Rage (Passive)
    • Removed
  • Assassin’s Blade (Trait)
    • Removed
• Level 16
  • New Talent: Sentenced to Death (W)
    • You deal 50% increased damage to enemies while they have a Singularity Spike attached to them.
  • Master Warp Blade (Trait)
    • Moved from level 4
    • Damage increased from 100 to 125%
  • Void Slash (Q)
    • New Functionality:
      • Cleave deals 40% more damage and its cooldown is reduced by 3 seconds when it hits more than 1 enemy Hero.
    • Moved from level 7
  • Double Bombs (W)
    • Removed
  • Stoneskin (Active)
    • Removed
• Level 20
  • Protective Prison (R)
    • New functionality:
      • Enemies are slowed by 50% for 3 seconds once Void Prison Ends.

Developer Comments:  There were two main goals behind this rework: Upgrade Zeratul’s talent tree and introduce some interesting new choices, and better sell the fantasy of being a Dark Templar. As always is the goal with our Hero reworks, we didn’t want to change the way he is played, but rather amplify and improve upon it. Overall, he has felt the same to play against in our internal testing, but with a couple new tricks up his sleeve. We hope that our current Zeratul fans will find some new toys to play around with, and that new users will feel more like the mobile shadow-assassin you’d expect from a Dark Templar Hero. 

Level (Tier)		Zeratul Talents
1 (1)	Greater Cleave (Q)	Vorpal Blade (Active)	(!) Shadow Hunter (E)	—
4 (2)	(!) Might of the Nerazim (Passive)	Rending Cleave (Q)	Stalking Strikes (Passive)	—
7 (3)	Wormhole (E)	Double Blink (E)	Dark Pursuit (W)	—
10 (4)	Shadow Assault (R)	Void Prison (R)	—	—
13 (5)	Cloak of the Void (Passive)	Spell Shield (Active)	Mending Strikes (Passive)	—
16 (6)	Master Warp-Blade (Passive)	Void Slash (Q)	Prelate's Furor (W)	—
20 (7)	Nerazim Fury (R)	Protective Prison (R)	Nexus Blades (Passive)	Rewind (Active)

• (!) indicates a Questing Talent.
• Italic text indicates a NEW Talent.
• Bold text indicates a MOVED Talent.

Specialist

Abathur

Abilities

• Toxic Nest (W)
  • Abathur is now locked out of casting Toxic Nest for .5 seconds after exiting Symbiote

Sylvanas

Talents

• Level 7
  • Possession (Active)
    • Can now be used on Catapult Minions

Xul

Abilities

• Skeletal Mages (R)
  • Is now cast using vector targeting (Click+Drag) 

Support

Kharazim

Abilities

• Breath of Heaven (W)
  • Healing increased from 280 to 290

Talents

• Level 1
  • Iron Fists (Trait)
    • Added Functionality:
      • Every third Basic Attack now also increases your Movement Speed by 30% for 2 seconds.
• Level 4
  • New Talent: Spirit Ally (Active)
    • Place a Spirit Ally that heals allies in a large area around it for 2% of their maximum Health every second for 10 seconds.  Has 150 Health.  You can Radiant Dash to Spirit Allies.  45 second cooldown.
  • New Talent: Earth Ally (Active)
    • Place an Earth Ally that reduces Heroic Basic Attack damage nearby allied Heroes receive by 50%. Has 400 Health and lasts 10 seconds.  You can Radiant Dash to Earth Allies.  30 second cooldown.
  • New Talent: Air Ally (Active)
    • Place an Air Ally that grants vision of a large area around it for 40 seconds. Has 70 Health.  You can Radiant Dash to Air Allies.  20 second cooldown.  2 charges.
  • Healing Ward (Active)
    • Removed
  • Foresight (Q)
    • Removed
  • Overtake (E)
    • Removed
  • Protective Shield (Active)
    • Removed
• Level 7
  • New Talent: Heavenly Zeal (W)
    • Increases the Movement Speed bonus of Breath of Heaven on other allies from 10 to 25%
  • Blinding Speed (Q)
    • Moved from level 16
  • Blazing Fists (E)
    • Moved from level 16
    • Cooldown reduction per Basic Attack reduced from 1 to .75 seconds.
  • Clairvoyance (Active)
    • Removed
  • Cleanse (Active)
    • Removed
• Level 13
  • Fists of Fury
    • Deadly Reach duration bonus increased from 50 to 100%
• Level 16
  • New Talent: Cleansing Touch (Q)
    • Radiant Dashing to an allied Hero grants them Unstoppable for 1 second
  • New Talent: Dash of Light (W)
    • Radiant Dashing to an ally increases the healing they received from Breath of Heaven by 50% for 3 seconds
  • Echo of Heaven (W)
    • Moved from level 7
    • Delay between heals increased from 2 to 3 seconds
    • Second heal amount increased from 35 to 75%
    • Now also reduces the initial heal amount of Breath of Heaven to 75%
  • Way of the Hundred Fists (Q)
    • Moved from level 7
    • Now deals a volley of 6 Basic Attacks that each deal 50% of your Basic Attack damage.
  • Circle of Life (W)
    • Removed
  • Soothing Breeze (W)
    • Removed

Developer Comments:  Kharazim’s Talents have been updated to create more compelling choices at every tier. To do this, we’ve made sure that Iron Fists / Bruiser style Kharazim is viable by increasing its damage uptime, removed a lot of the generic Talents and replaced them with Kharazim specific options like Mystic Allies, and re-arranged a lot of the tree so that you don’t have to sacrifice as much healing to pick mobility, utility or damage. 

Level (Tier)		Kharazim Talents
1 (1)	Transcendence	Iron Fists	(!) Insight	—
4 (2)	Spirit Ally (Active)	Earth Ally (Active)	Air Ally (Active)	—
7 (3)	Blinding Speed (Q)	Heavenly Zeal (W)	Blazing Fists (E)	—
10 (4)	Divine Palm (R)	Seven-Sided Strike (R)	—	—
13 (5)	Quicksilver (Q)	Fists of Fury (E)	Spell Shield (Active)	Sixth Sense (Passive)
16 (6)	Cleansing Dash (Q)	Way of the Hundred Fists (Q)	Echo of Heaven (W)	Resuscitate (W)
20 (7)	Peaceful Repose (R)	Trasngression (R)	Storm Shield (Active)	Epiphany (Active)

• (!) indicates a Questing Talent.
• Italic text indicates a NEW Talent.
• Bold text indicates a MOVED Talent.

Warrior

Leoric

Abilities

• March of the Black King (R)
  • Will no longer deal damage in a 90 degree arc behind Leoric

Developer Comments:  We realize that we have a lot of Leoric players that are looking for talent changes and calling for buffs (especially to Skeletal Swing). We want you to know that we actively hear you and although this art-driven change came a bit earlier than our other changes, you spooky skeleton players should be able to rejoice in a future patch. 

Bug Fixes

General

• Corrected a number of typos and tooltip errors across several aspects of the game.
• Brawl: Slightly reduced the likelihood that players will receive Specialist choices during Shuffle Pick when playing an Arena Brawl.

Art

• Alarak: The targeting reticle for Lightning Surge will now correctly match the Ability’s casting range after learning Extended Lightning.
• Valla: Visual effects for the Movement Speed bonus gained via the Hot Pursuit Talent will no longer persist after Hatred stacks expire.

Battlegrounds

• Blackheart's Bay: Area of effect indicators and Hero rings will now display properly on bridges.
• Braxis Holdout/Warhead Junction: XP earned by capturing Mercenary Camps will now properly scale throughout the match.
• Mercenaries: Siege Giants will no longer deal damage if they are killed while in the middle of their attack animations.

Heroes, Abilities, and Talents

• Spell Shield: A cooldown timer will now properly appear when Spell Shield’s effects are triggered in the same moment that the Talent was activated.
• Alarak: Deadly Charge no longer be cancelled and be placed on full cooldown if Alarak’s destination would place him in terrain.
• Alarak: Fixed an issue that could prevent Counter Strike from dealing damage if Alarak was killed as the Ability’s effects were triggered.
• Alarak: Unstoppable and Invulnerable effects will no longer prevent Alarak from pushing himself via Telekinesis.
• Alarak: Changing Heroes of the Storm’s text language settings will no longer prevent Lightning Surge visual effects from displaying.
• Brightwing: The game camera will no longer become stuck if Stitches uses Gorge on Brightwing while she is casting Phase Shift.
• Chen: 50% of Shields gained by channeling Fortifying Brew will now properly persist after learning Freshest Ingredients.
• Chen: The Buff Bar tooltip for the Freshest Ingredients Talent will now display the correct amount of Health Regeneration gained.
• Chen: Regeneration Globes gathered by Storm, Earth, Fire Spirits now properly contribute to the Freshest Ingredient Talent’s quest progress.
• Gall: The tooltip for Eye of Kilrogg now properly indicates the maximum number of charges it can store.
• Illidan: Fixed an issue that could cause odd movement behavior after learning Unbound and then casting Sweeping Strike.
• Malfurion: The Hardened Focus Talent will no longer reduce Innervate’s cooldown.
• Malfurion: The casting range for Entangling Roots is now correctly increased by 30% after learning Elune's Grace.
• Medivh: Fixed an issue which could allow Medivh to path into the terrain after launching a Nuke on Warhead Junction while in Raven form.
• Nova: After learning Cover Ops, Pinning Shot will now correctly Slow the target’s Movement Speed by 60%.
• Nova/Zeratul: Danger Pings will no longer remain visible over a Hero who enters Stealth.
• Samuro: Way of Illusion Talent stacks now properly grant bonus attack damage to Mirror Images.
• Samuro: Mirror Image Health bars will now reflect the number of Doubloons that Samuro is carrying on Blackheart’s Bay.
• Tracer: Visual and Sound effects will now properly play upon completing the Untouchable Talent quest.
• Uther: Uther’s Health bar will no longer disappear if he is revived via the Redemption Talent after being killed by Devouring Maw.
• Zarya: Fixed an issue that could cause Graviton Surge’s effect to persist indefinitely under certain circumstances.
• Zarya: The Gain Train Talent can no longer apply a Shield to an ally-controlled Dragon Knight or Garden Terror.

Sound

• Voiceover: Fixed an issue that could prevent Heroes’ voiceover lines from playing properly after being clicked on.

User Interface

• In-Game: The Talents tab on the in-game Score Screen will now properly indicate when Valla’s Puncturing Arrow Talent quest is complete.
• Quick Cast: Abilities with global range can now be properly cast using the minimap with Quick Cast set to “On Release”.
• Observer Mode: Beacon progress bars will now update appropriately for Observers on Braxis Holdout.

(Source)

 

[Valhalen 1,484]

This Kharazim rework is really good. I hope they rework some old characters with this evolving meta. Murky and The Lost Vikings could get some love since there are many Heroes that can wipe the floor with them.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Valhalen

[Valks 2,375]

7 hours ago, Valhalen said:

This Kharazim rework is really good. I hope they rework some old characters with this evolving meta. Murky and The Lost Vikings could get some love since there are many Heroes that can wipe the floor with them.

I feel like that honestly won't change with the Vikings, just given how simple it can be to isolate them. If you run around with them always together and as a 3-stacked mob, you aren't really playing them right. If you split them, they die easily when caught out. It's why they are picked so rarely, just because something like any target assassin can destroy them outside of ulti.

[Valhalen 1,484]

1 hour ago, Blainie said:

I feel like that honestly won't change with the Vikings, just given how simple it can be to isolate them. If you run around with them always together and as a 3-stacked mob, you aren't really playing them right. If you split them, they die easily when caught out. It's why they are picked so rarely, just because something like any target assassin can destroy them outside of ulti.

Exactly. In other words, they don't work well. Maybe a rework could give specific bonuses, like more damage if they're together or more movement speed if they're isolated to give some advantage.

[Stan 5,240]

Can't see any of that happening, because of their XP potential. Yes it requires a lot of multitasking and yes, you need to be careful what you're doing if you're split-lane soaking, but during heavy lane presence, you can hide in bushes, use your "Z" to get quickly behind your gates when chased down, use "Jump" etc.

It's not bad to die from time to time, you got the "Play Again" heroic at Level 10. Maps where Lost Vikings truly shine are in my experience three-lane maps with objectives outside of lanes, like Cursed Hollow as you get unnoticed during Tribute spawns; aka push lanes like crazy, create lane pressure bribing Mercenary camps, giving your team Level 10 before the enemy team, even if you're team isn't performing exactly as it should. They have an especially hard time on Tomb of the Spider Queen.

[Valks 2,375]

13 minutes ago, Valhalen said:

Exactly. In other words, they don't work well. Maybe a rework could give specific bonuses, like more damage if they're together or more movement speed if they're isolated to give some advantage.

Funnily enough, it's where the lack of items really comes into play.

Look at Meepo in DOTA - you can build specifically to cater to your little group as a team in itself, buying healing items, aura items that increase Armor, Lifesteal etc., and you can then use Travel Boots to allow your Meepos to move around the map at an alarming rate.

Maybe bringing some of those bonuses in as talents could help out by making them more powerful when they are grouped/split in different ways.

[Valks 2,375]

7 minutes ago, Stan said:

Can't see any of that happening, because of their XP potential. Yes it requires a lot of multitasking and yes, you need to be careful what you're doing if you're split-lane soaking, but during heavy lane presence, you can hide in bushes, use your "Z" to get quickly behind your gates when chased down, use "Jump" etc.

It's not bad to die from time to time, you got the "Play Again" heroic at Level 10. Maps where Lost Vikings truly shine are in my experience three-lane maps with objectives outside of lanes, like Cursed Hollow.

This feels like one of those Skill floor vs. Skill cap problems though. It's totally fine for there to be a huge skill cap and incredible potential, but there should also be some level of attainable skill floor. If you are actually hurt by playing them as one group, it completely alienates a huge amount of players from even using them. There should be some talents that at least allow you to gain some bonuses by grouping them; it definitely shouldn't be better than any of the other builds, but it should at least be playable for lower-skilled players.

[Stan 5,240]

12 minutes ago, Blainie said:

This feels like one of those Skill floor vs. Skill cap problems though. It's totally fine for there to be a huge skill cap and incredible potential, but there should also be some level of attainable skill floor. If you are actually hurt by playing them as one group, it completely alienates a huge amount of players from even using them. There should be some talents that at least allow you to gain some bonuses by grouping them; it definitely shouldn't be better than any of the other builds, but it should at least be playable for lower-skilled players.

I agree, there should be a passive that activates when they're clumped up and all alive. They are extremely fragile. Most of the time you will be approaching an enemy from one side and getting hit by Li-Ming's single Arcane Orb can be fatal. That's just one ability of single Hero. Not to mention when there's two or more enemies. RIP.

[positiv2 952]

35 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Funnily enough, it's where the lack of items really comes into play.

Look at Meepo in DOTA - you can build specifically to cater to your little group as a team in itself, buying healing items, aura items that increase Armor, Lifesteal etc., and you can then use Travel Boots to allow your Meepos to move around the map at an alarming rate.

Maybe bringing some of those bonuses in as talents could help out by making them more powerful when they are grouped/split in different ways.

But it works the other way around as well. You play against Nyx, she gets Dagon, you die in less than 3 seconds. Without the Dagon, you could survive the stun and run away, but because there are items in the game, you won't.
Items allow more flexible builds and counters to exist in the game. Talents in HotS serve a similar purpose, but not every hero gets talents that counter you, but every hero in DotA can get an item to counter. This adds another level of depth to HotS. 

[Valks 2,375]

1 hour ago, positiv2 said:

But it works the other way around as well. You play against Nyx, she gets Dagon, you die in less than 3 seconds. Without the Dagon, you could survive the stun and run away, but because there are items in the game, you won't.
Items allow more flexible builds and counters to exist in the game. Talents in HotS serve a similar purpose, but not every hero gets talents that counter you, but every hero in DotA can get an item to counter. This adds another level of depth to HotS. 

True, but then look at your possibility of slightly countering it with Pipe + Heart, for example. It's also worth saying that this is less to do with the item and more to do with his counters all being related to single-target burst. Like, you can counter Meepo with any single target burst or ST-enabler - Bloodseeker Ult, Pudge Hook etc.

Anyone can counter Meepo in DOTA with enough farm, but Meepo can also find a way to survive through different comps by building differently (Heavy melee, Aquila + Heart + Vlads etc. / Heavy Magic. Pipe + Heart). I feel like it's a give and take, there are more counters, but there are more options to stop counters. 

In HoTS, there's nothing Vikings can do to stop being absolutely slain while grouped right now. You just get completely destroyed by it. They need to rework his talents to include some stacking bonus.