7.1.5 Changes - Speculation

[Browed 19]

Quote

 Frost

Specialization (2)

•  Icebound Fortitude   Your blood freezes, granting immunity to Stun effects and reducing all damage you take by 20% for 8 sec.
  Specializations changed from Frost/Unholy to Blood/Frost/Unholy
•  Runic Empowerment   When you spend Runic Power, you have a 1%1.5% chance per Runic Power spent to gain a Rune.

Talents (1)

•  Breath of Sindragosa   Continuously deal (175%250% of Attack power) Shadowfrost damage every 1 sec to enemies in a cone in front of you. Deals reduced damage to secondary targets. You will continue breathing until your Runic Power is exhausted or you cancel the effect.
  
  Cost changed from 0 Runic Power, plus 13 per sec to 0 Runic Power, plus 15 per sec

Granted these are subject to change, but worth discussing.

Some fairly minor changes, however, I'm not turning down any buffs :)

The increased chance to gain runes is more significant than the Breath of Sindragosa buff, but...

In reality there is no change to rotations, and whether we go Breath instead of Oblitaration/GA is going to go back on the table.. but I doubt it's made it mandatory.

Thoughts?

[Tremin 0]

Granted that you're correct in the accessment that the rotation doesn't change, the buff to RE actually devalues frozen pulse, since its uptime drops, I believe it is a drop from about 80% to about 65-70% so it is somewhat signicant. Maybe this might also push us more towards a BoS with horn of winter build? Who knows, will be fun to try out atleast.

[demonardvark 556]

the legendary items lead to further speculation but not too much for frost. One legendary for unholy is aimed at defile (wording right now) while also working for DnD. It's leading many to think defile will finally get buffed and will become the streamlined talent for unholy. Already its sort of beneficial if it didn't hit like a wet noodle the buff is nice, so if it did any sort of respectable dps it would become an awesome talent. Plus it would add to class fantasy for unholy, oh you are defiling things yup sounds right. It would add more things to micro manage though, making sure boss marinates etc, but it would be a nice change.

For frost people are wanting to see icy talons baked into the spec with another talent being viable. Also BOS is getting a buff and some are wanting BOS to be viable again. However, we won't see necessarily huge rotation differences with current buffs but if BOS becomes a thing it will be a huge difference.  

So it'll be interesting to see the upcoming waves. 

[Sniz 60]

On 11/17/2016 at 4:15 PM, Tremin said:

Granted that you're correct in the accessment that the rotation doesn't change, the buff to RE actually devalues frozen pulse, since its uptime drops, I believe it is a drop from about 80% to about 65-70% so it is somewhat signicant. Maybe this might also push us more towards a BoS with horn of winter build? Who knows, will be fun to try out atleast.

BoS also devalues frozen pulse.  Combined with a buffed RE, I think its a safe bet to say FP and BoS shouldnt be taken together.

So for starters, lets assume BoS is just an alternative to GA for a dungeon/mythic build and the Obliteration still is the top ST/raiding talent.

Not factoring in mastery, dirty math says with roughly 28k attack power BoS will go from a max of approx 50k-75k per tick (with secondary targets getting hit for less) to about 70k-105k per tick. Thats every 2 mins.  Or for all practical purposes, once every third or fourth trash pull.

Whereas GA is about 105k-155k every 15 seconds. So maybe 1-2 times a pull.

Imo GA will still be stronger.  It hits harder, more frequently (up to 8 times w/n BoS's cooldown) and dumps runes for FP.

The only question in my mind is whether BoS with FF or HoW can outperform GA and FP.

and at first glance the numbers just aren't there.  Maybe with a buff to 375% attack power....maybe.

I mean with the buff to 250% I can imagine some decent AoE damage spikes, obviously.  But as far as overall dungeon damage is concerned im putting my money on GA/FP still.

 

Edit: on second thought BoS might line up nicely with PoF and perhaps a use trinket...

ok fine. Its closer than i thought.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Sniz

[Daggnar 0]

Actually, something that frost is really missing right now is a good burst ability. BoS brings that aspect. This will be a good thing further on as fights are going to take less and less time. 

Having more chances to get additional runes upon spending runic power only boosts that aspect... 

Frozen pulse coud still be a viable option as once we pop BoS, one will want to use as much rune to get more runic power.. We might end up being starved on runes wich will trigger frozen pulse. 

I see those changes as a very good new.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Daggnar

[demonardvark 556]

17 hours ago, Daggnar said:

Actually, something that frost is really missing right now is a good burst ability.

Sindragosas fury?

17 hours ago, Daggnar said:

I see those changes as a very good new.

But yes they certainly may be. The issue is everyone right now is sort of laser focused on the mindset that frozen pulse icy talons is king simply because that's the way its been since legion launched. Frost was og horribly undertuned so the combo was necessary to survive and after buffs it still is powerful and easy to use.

Depending on tuning and that is the key tuning we may see different rotations becoming a thing. Plus we don't know necessarily what talent changes are going to come our way, blizz is doing several sweeps. So, we may in fact lose certain talents we have or have them altered heavily (rip fire mage you will be missed). 

Now logistically our options ATM appear to be that it will be either BOS or not BOS (obra or machinegun). There is also the ever looming descent into masterfrost which could make a RW build happen. I just personally hope BOS doesn't become the big thing. It was only ever used competitively by unholy in hfc because of legendary ring. The playstyle was frankly boring and frustrating at the same time. Plus even with good uptime it's been found on most bosses in EN there is a mechanic that would cause bos to fall off boss. It was a burst down boss on farm playstyle, ie if your kill time is over 1-1/2 minutes ish your dps is going to plummet. So old school bos just wasn't fun imo (it was as blood with that t13 pvp exploit though XD).

So maybe new bos will be fun but mechanically its the same as it was. So i dunno. Frost seems fun enough as is I just worry it will get borked with. 

[Browed 19]

Quote

• Breath of Sindragosa Continuously deal [ 1 + 250% 287.5% of AP ] Shadowfrost damage every 1 sec to enemies in a cone in front of you.

• Freezing Fog Howling Blast and Frost Fever deal 25% 30% increased damage. Frost Death Knight - Level 57 Talent.
• Gathering Storm Each Rune spent during Remorseless Winter increases its damage by 10%, and extends it 15%, and extends its durationby 0.5 sec. Frost Death Knight - Level 90 Talent.

• Horn of Winter Blow the Horn of Winter, gaining 2 runes and generating 10 20 Runic Power. Frost Death Knight - Level 57 Talent. Instant. 30 sec cooldown.
• Hungering Rune Weapon Empower your rune weapon, gaining 1 Rune and 5 Runic Power instantly and every 1.5 sec for 12 15 sec. Frost Death Knight - Level 58 Talent. Instant. 1 sec cooldown.

• Murderous Efficiency Consuming the Killing Machine effect has a 50% 65% chance to cause you to gain 1 Rune. Frost Death Knight - Level 56 Talent.

• Volatile Shielding Your Anti-Magic Shell turns your enemies' pathetic magic against them, absorbing 35% more damage, but generating no Runic Power. When it expires, 25% of all damage absorbed is dealt as Arcane Shadow damage divided among nearby enemies. Frost Death Knight - Level 75 Talent.
• White Walker You take 20% 30% reduced damage while Wraith Walk is active. When you enter or leave Wraith Walk, all nearby enemies are slowed by 50% 70% for 3 sec. Frost Death Knight - Level 75 Talent.

• Overpowered Rune Weapon Empowered Empower Rune Weapon's cooldown is reduced by 2 minutes. Frost DeathKnight - Tier 5 PvP Talent.
• Howling Blast Blast the target with a frigid wind, dealing [ 82.5% of AP ] Frost damage to that foe, and [ 70.1% [ 66% of AP ] Frost damage to all other enemies within 10 yards, infecting all targets with Frost Fever. Frost Fever A disease that deals [ 440% of AP ] Frost damage over 24 sec and has a chance to grant the Death Knight 5 Runic Power each time it deals damage. Death Knight - Frost Spec. 1 Runes. 30 yd range. Instant.

These changes are almost entirely buffs and bring many under-used specs back into the playing field in my opinion.

The second buff to Breath of Sindy in combination with buffs to Hungering Rune Weapon seem to indicate Blizz wanting that build to get some air time.

Personally I've flip-flopped between FP and FrFog. So FrFog will just go higher on my list due to it's 5% buff

With that, the slight nerf to HB AoE is fairly insignificant. My preferred M+ hybrid spec is centred on FrScythe for AoE anyway.

In all, I don't see the ST/raid spec optimals changing. That will still be OBRA, but we can go nuts with everything else... M+ especially may see a real variety of talent builds.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Browed

[demonardvark 556]

18 minutes ago, Browed said:

These changes are almost entirely buffs and bring many under-used specs back into the playing field in my opinion.

The second buff to Breath of Sindy in combination with buffs to Hungering Rune Weapon seem to indicate Blizz wanting that build to get some air time.

Personally I've flip-flopped between FP and FrFog. So FrFog will just go higher on my list due to it's 5% buff

With that, the slight nerf to HB AoE is fairly insignificant. My preferred M+ hybrid spec is centred on FrScythe for AoE anyway.

In all, I don't see the ST/raid spec optimals changing. That will still be OBRA, but we can go nuts with everything else... M+ especially may see a real variety of talent builds.

yeah looking at those talents they are certainly nudging us to a  BOS direction. We have to see final tunings and that but BOS may end up being a thing again. It will give more options to rotation that's for sure. I mean in alpha I had fun with it, i was able to keep it up basically until it came off CD again which was neat. May be a nice option for those wanting something outside of it  3 button rotations. 

As far as other things go the buffs seem trivial as well as the HB nerf. HB nerf basically makes it "use on rime only" which makes me sad because I could do lazy aoe with it. The gathering storm buffs don't seems substantial enough yet for a 4th build to become a thing. The issue in mythic + is that frostscythe is just too powerful and too easy to use. Plus it requires no build up time. So again if we descent into masterfrost it looks more viable, i just don't think yet. 7.2 tomb of sargeras stuff maybe but not in nighthold i don't think.

so

mythic + - likely still spam FsC and giggle

Raiding- OBRA, Machine gun, maybe BOS

Pvp- Arena's 100% BoS, BGs no idea cuz I'm worse at bgs than i am arenas XD

[Sniz 60]

Blizz's plan to have several viable talent specs for each dps class is coming to fruition.

Min-maxers nightmare lol

It certainly seems easier to balance one tech tree than balance different specs, thats for sure.

 

[Jaeden 1]

I am totally down with this.  I am already using and loving FSc and BoS together.  Hit RP cap or close and pop PoF, RW and then BoS and just scythe.  BoS eats up all that RP you generate and if you hit a rune wall, just ERW and keep going.

I'm sure at upper levels this might not work, but damn it looks and feels awesome.

[Sniz 60]

2 hours ago, Jaeden said:

I am totally down with this.  I am already using and loving FSc and BoS together.  Hit RP cap or close and pop PoF, RW and then BoS and just scythe.  BoS eats up all that RP you generate and if you hit a rune wall, just ERW and keep going.

I'm sure at upper levels this might not work, but damn it looks and feels awesome.

There is utility to it.  Weakish tank/healer for mythic+. But for speed runs where your team is good, you'd have to keep track of overall deeps.

[demonardvark 556]

The only issue is BOS is and always was a patchwork talent and/or burst talent. So in HFC we saw unholy dks with stupid dps from BOS however that was because fights were under a minute long. The second the fight extended longer than a BOS phase the dps plummeted fast. The issue looking at current raid spectrum is there are so many mechanics where BOS will fall off boss or you'll be away from boss unable to generate RP. This is in both EN and TOV. Now in BETA bos was able to be kept up near infinitely (in one of the builds) however, for it to be effective you need it to be showing the boss as long as possible and that is hard. 

Now once your group gits gud then it becomes more likely to be valuable because shorter fights means less mechanics to push you off boss. So, I see it being a huge burst talent yes, good for raids you have on farm. However, for any sort of progression there is a lot of mechanical issues behind it. So while it's somewhat exciting on paper to think about, realistically using it is another deal. As is with frost you losing icy talons stacks is punishing dps wise, losing like 10 seconds of BOS off nythendra because of a rot or Eleth because of necrotic venom, and you can't say that won't be a punishing loss as well especially if the builds are centered around BOS.

tldr it will realistically end up a burst farm talent. 

[Arishmael 0]

On 12/2/2016 at 0:55 PM, demonardvark said:

Now once your group gits gud then it becomes more likely to be valuable because shorter fights means less mechanics to push you off boss. So, I see it being a huge burst talent yes, good for raids you have on farm. However, for any sort of progression there is a lot of mechanical issues behind it. So while it's somewhat exciting on paper to think about, realistically using it is another deal. As is with frost you losing icy talons stacks is punishing dps wise, losing like 10 seconds of BOS off nythendra because of a rot or Eleth because of necrotic venom, and you can't say that won't be a punishing loss as well especially if the builds are centered around BOS.

tldr it will realistically end up a burst farm talent. 

So it could already now be a very viable build for the eye oneshot(maybe xavius?) and will be better with the buffs?

[demonardvark 556]

On 12/8/2016 at 11:32 PM, Arishmael said:

So it could already now be a very viable build for the eye oneshot(maybe xavius?) and will be better with the buffs?

its not viable right now really, i derped with it and its not quite there yet. 

now in 7.1.5 a bos build is all but guaranteed now to become a thing. its still being played with as to what the best build will be. the most interesting one (imo) is a combo platter of using both breath of sindragosa and gathering storm, the most popular name i've seen for it is "Storm-Breath rotation'. So basically keep remorseless winter up, hammer obliterate (burn as much runes as possible for gathering storm) and pairing that with BOS which again is favored because you will be generating RP like crazy. It is especially potent with a couple legendary items. It's actually a very fun rotation and its about keeping up BOS as long as possible if not constantly. Its a bit of a patchwork build, mechanics can derp it bad but its certainly breathing new life into the spec for me (didya see what i did there :D)

so bos right now is a good pvp talent but otherwise rather meh. in 7.1.5 bos is very very likely going to become a dominant playstyle.

[Browed 19]

@demonardvark

I remember the legendary helm getting a lot of downvotes due to the proc not activating on CC immune mobs (bosses).

Looks like that is about to change:

 Perseverance of the Ebon Martyr   Howling Blast deals 40% increased damage to enemies affected by Remorseless Winter.recently damage by your Remorseless Winter.

^^from latest PTR notes

As an owner, I am very happy about this change, especially due to the nerfbat swinging on good dps legendaries in general, this actually means a buff.

Lets hope they leave the bracers alone >__<

I'm not sure what 'recent' is defined as, this may even extend the current window to include a period of time after the last tick of RW.

With the BoS builds coming in 7.1.5 it will remain to be seen what the BIS list looks like for our legendaries but I think this boosts the helm back up there.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Browed

[Shells 64]

I really wish they wouldnt use words like "recently" as its far too random. Just say damaged by RW in the last 3 seconds or 2 seconds or a set amount of time. 

UH seems to be gettting some buffs in general but I dont know if its enough to put it back on par with frost which is 

1- easier to play

2-less dependant on rng (7.1.5 changes will help UH with this somewhat)

3-UH feels somewhat lackluster atm for me in any case.

[Browed 19]

Simcraft (710-03) despite its inherent flaws is still fun to tinker with...

Playing with talents to compare single target/aoe builds Live and PTR gave some interesting results for my setup.

The BoS build > here < on the PTR is a full 60k (might be more or less for you, gear dependent) higher than Live and sims highest on single target AND AoE.

I think the sims may reflect what Blizz are trying to achieve here, in theory it's a high performer, but in practice the BoS rotation will be more difficult to optimize.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Browed