Blood DK stat caps (soft/hard)

[Drchance 0]

Here's a link to my character:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/uther/Drchancimus/simple

 

With max boneshield stacks i'm at:

13% crit

37% haste

38% mastery

6% versatility

3% dodge

18% parry

 

Maybe i'm just terrible at googleing, but i can't figure out when i should stop trying to stack haste, sadly i have way too much mastery; i'd like to have less; just trying to see if anyone has worked the numbers out.

[Shells 64]

I would change it slightly

 

I would try to have 20% crit and parry

More haste is always good but try to get parry and crit up before stacking any more.

 

Your gear is good, you should be all set for most content as is.

[Sniz 60]

16 hours ago, Drchance said:

Here's a link to my character:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/uther/Drchancimus/simple

 

With max boneshield stacks i'm at:

13% crit

37% haste

38% mastery

6% versatility

3% dodge

18% parry

 

Maybe i'm just terrible at googleing, but i can't figure out when i should stop trying to stack haste, sadly i have way too much mastery; i'd like to have less; just trying to see if anyone has worked the numbers out.

There hasn't been any reliable sim numbers for blood so far.  My guess is because blood doesnt rely on a rotation that simply keeps passive mitigation up with defensive cooldowns. Its rotation is reactional and sitiational instead.

That being said, all we have is anecdotal evidence and what basically "feels right".

 

I think its generally accepted that there is no two stat stacking anymore, and mastery (although hard to avoid) is only useful to a certain degree.

For straight up raid tanking, there are several bloods in this forum who agree, including Shells, to get your parry to 20% via crit, cap your mastery around 25%, and after that stack haste and versa.

For any situation requiring more dps (or the better your healer is) swap versa for more crit.

Its as simple as that.

 

I was able to 3 chest a M+ 8 the other day with this build:

20% (crit and parry)

31% haste (b4 bone shield)

25% mastery

11% versa

of course, i also have 2 tanking legendaries and all 3 artifact dragons which helps lol

Edited November 28, 2016 by Sniz

[Aegis 27]

to note, if you have 3 points in the 1% parry trait, 18% crit is sufficient for 20% parry. i'm currently sitting at:

21% parry
29% haste
34% mastery
12% versatility.

I was able to 3 chest a +9 comfortably (EoA). I have two legends, the cloak and the ring (not the best, but oh well). Having about 40% haste is a hard cap, i believe, cause when you have bone shield and lust up, you hit 1s gcd. I'm no focused on getting more crit to up my parry - aiming for 25%.

[Sniz 60]

7 minutes ago, Aegis said:

to note, if you have 3 points in the 1% parry trait, 18% crit is sufficient for 20% parry. i'm currently sitting at:

21% parry
29% haste
34% mastery
12% versatility.

I was able to 3 chest a +9 comfortably (EoA). I have two legends, the cloak and the ring (not the best, but oh well). Having about 40% haste is a hard cap, i believe, cause when you have bone shield and lust up, you hit 1s gcd. I'm no focused on getting more crit to up my parry - aiming for 25%.

Strength buffs parry a touch as well, so your parry will naturally go up slowly as your ilvl does. (For the OP's infomation.)

gratz on the 9 btw!

I got a haste Phantasmal Echo the other day and combined with vampiric and Umbilicus its really hard to get taken down, especially with a vers build. Good lord.  Plus 200k+ overal dps.

 

[Shells 64]

I am going to look more at adding versa to my own build, running with 6% ish and I cant really feel any difference, maybe another few % might make it more noticeable.

Grats on the 9 with 3 chests Aegis. 

[Sniz 60]

4 hours ago, Shells said:

I am going to look more at adding versa to my own build, running with 6% ish and I cant really feel any difference, maybe another few % might make it more noticeable.

Grats on the 9 with 3 chests Aegis. 

Id suggest at least 2 different tanking sets.  one with haste and more crit for awesome healer mythic speed runs and one with haste and more vers for difficult content like progression raiding or high end mythics where multi chesting isnt expected to happen.

Im sold with stacking versa (and haste) after reaching other stat mins.  Its cuz DKs take advantage if it a lot! Self healing is a big thing of what we do so its a flat out win win.

I did some dirty math for you.

I pulled the following figures from a N Ursoc a month ago, so they are somewhat realistic as far as damage taken and DS usage (maybe throwing in a rend/overwhelm tank swap error or 2 lol)

70 hits averaging 1mil per: 70m damage

35 DS's with a average health of 3.5m cuz it varies with bone shield stacks (10% heal for 350,000)

Now, say you are diligent and only DS when you are below 90% so there is no overhealing.

with 10% more versa:

Your DS will heal 35,000 more per cast x 35 = 1.225m

You will mitigate 5% of 70m or 3.5million.

(Plus 10% more healing from outside sources.)

Now, what makes things difficult is that parry does not scale 1 to 1 with crit, (so if you know the ratio let me know), but in order to mitigate 3.5m damage, your parry would have to go from 20% to 25%.  That would make versa and crit even mitigation wise with versa being more smooth and crit being choppy and RNG dependant.  

Factoring in Skeletal shattering though (and assuming just 10% crit will get you to 25% parry),  10% more crit would mitigate 7 more attacks (out of 70) for 560k.    

So, not quite as strong as the versa self healing component and not even factoring in the outside healing component which will account for more than 1/2 of your heals needed.

Damage on the other hand is pretty simple 10% more damage or 10% x 1.5. Crit wins there.  Thats why its a decent stat for mythic+ where dps is just as important but it has some strong mitigation as well.  Raw raw raw survivability though, versa is better.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Sniz

[Shells 64]

7 hours ago, Sniz said:

 

with 10% more versa:

Your DS will heal 35,000 more per cast x 35 = 1.225m

You will mitigate 5% of 70m or 3.5million.

(Plus 10% more healing from outside sources.)

 

Hey

I cant find any information anywhere to say that Versa gives a boost to incoming healing. Sure it boosts your own healing done to yourself as a BDK but where does it say that it gives you a boost to incoming healing?

[Sniz 60]

Oh I thought I might add something about mastery for the guys who cant get rid of it or choose to keep it.

The reason why mastery is disfavored is because of its numbers and the fact that it *doesn't* scale with how hard you get hit like pure mitigation does.  It scales with how much you heal yourself with DS for (10% of health or 20% of previous damage) *plus* whatever your versatility bonus heal is.

Using the same example above, putting that extra 10% into mastery instead of, say versatility, will give you an extra shield of 35,000 per DS.  So as you can see, 35x35k= 1.225m  Not terrible. But the least of the 3 stats survivability wise.

(Now keep in mind, this is strictly % verses %, and does not factor in % per stat value.)

However, the harder you get hit, your mastery heals the same,but the other stats will mitigate *more*.  Thats why you will notice a "sweet spot" where you literally take no damage (heroic daily) but you do harder stuff and you get crushed (w/o parry or versa).

Finally, many players notice that top Blood DKs keep a bunch of mastery in their builds.  This,I suspect, is not because of survivability but for DPS. Simply so ticky tack damage doesnt pop their blood shield so they can maintain their attack power bonus and take advantage of unending thirst!

Edited November 29, 2016 by Sniz

[Sniz 60]

25 minutes ago, Shells said:

Hey

I cant find any information anywhere to say that Versa gives a boost to incoming healing. Sure it boosts your own healing done to yourself as a BDK but where does it say that it gives you a boost to incoming healing?

Don't tell me I've read versatility wrong all this time.

I am shrouded in noobtasticness.

"Increases outgoing damage, healing  and reduces incoming damage."

I guess i read it as healing received, not healing done...it makes more sense as healing done...

whats that behind you!!!

 

*exits forums*

[Shells 64]

If blizz wanted to buff it , then that would be an elegant fix and I am sure alot of tanks would be behind such a simple change. 

:)

I wont tell anyone Sniz. 

[Sniz 60]

10 minutes ago, Shells said:

If blizz wanted to buff it , then that would be an elegant fix and I am sure alot of tanks would be behind such a simple change. 

:)

I wont tell anyone Sniz. 

Haha jeez louise.

well, nevertheless, it was hust a throw in bonus (imaginary or not).

In the scenario i used however, its pretty clear that mastery falls behind crit and even farther behind versa.

[Aegis 27]

I got an 880 impenetrable nerubian husk from the weekly cache. Now I'm at like 39% haste =.= too much of a good thing? 

Will test it out today and see how it plays... Not enough versa gear =(

[Aegis 27]

To note, mastery actually does mitigate quite a lot of incoming damage, not as much as block, but coupled with the heal, it does put us in a pretty comfortable place. Crit as a defensive will taper off, and vers per point is kinda abysmal. As far as I know, mastery's dr is much further off, at least at current gear levels. 

I do note that mastery-heavy builds would reward a more active play style, with monitoring incoming damage to maximise the size of heals/shields, as opposed to a more passive 'fill up empty gcds' play style.

To note: I'm still going to be using multiple back to back DS to maximise damage from our third golden - maybe not best practic, but comfortable for me. Also to note, although my dk is 10 ilevels higher, my tankadin is still pulling more dps. Wth, blizz.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Aegis

[Sniz 60]

4 hours ago, Aegis said:

To note, mastery actually does mitigate quite a lot of incoming damage, not as much as block, but coupled with the heal, it does put us in a pretty comfortable place. Crit as a defensive will taper off, and vers per point is kinda abysmal. As far as I know, mastery's dr is much further off, at least at current gear levels. 

I do note that mastery-heavy builds would reward a more active play style, with monitoring incoming damage to maximise the size of heals/shields, as opposed to a more passive 'fill up empty gcds' play style.

To note: I'm still going to be using multiple back to back DS to maximise damage from our third golden - maybe not best practic, but comfortable for me. Also to note, although my dk is 10 ilevels higher, my tankadin is still pulling more dps. Wth, blizz.

The legendary legs allow you to stack runic power to 185.  It adds quite a bit of ST burst.  If you like that playstyle, check them out.

I guess if im bored ill sit down and remove gear to figure out a stat-to-percentage breakdown of each stat to see when DRs hit because that is important.  But for now it seems like stats adjust percentages roughly the same from the naked eye.

Everything but crit to parry, where it seems going from 20% to 30% ads roughly 3.5 to 3.75% parry, at a glance.

 

 

[Shells 64]

The BB damage nerf a while ago really wrecked our dps in tank spec , which to some non tanks is a good thing as tanks arent "supposed" to do damage. 

Bah, in alot of instances you need all the damage you can muster for timers and for progression and as we are weaker than druids and pallys atm, the extra damage would be a boost to counter our perceived weaknesses. 

 

Re versa vs mastery, mastery is still in my view much weaker than mastery and until it gets buffed it will sit at the bottom of my priority list.  Chaining DS like that is a good idea so long as you wont need the healing in the next few seconds and the legs would really synergise well with that. 

 

I got a neck today from the cache that gives 5% more runic power which might help feed that DS habit of yours Aegis if you can get them both. 

:)

[Phenomena 2]

I've been lucky with legendarys ( Cazna ) so they help out but scratching those and looking into the raw stats.

I'm running with following stats:

Crit 26%

Haste 21,5%

Mastery 34,7%

Vers 1,5%

 

The key is crit as it's interacting with your golden trait based on crit%. 5% crit doesnt seem like much but if you look at it this way 20% = 1/5 chance and 25% = 1/4 chance.

I strongly recommend 25% crit and 20% haste as base from there it's all about your playstyle and luck with gear.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Phenomena

[Aegis 27]

4 hours ago, Shells said:

The BB damage nerf a while ago really wrecked our dps in tank spec , which to some non tanks is a good thing as tanks arent "supposed" to do damage. 

Bah, in alot of instances you need all the damage you can muster for timers and for progression and as we are weaker than druids and pallys atm, the extra damage would be a boost to counter our perceived weaknesses. 

 

Re versa vs mastery, mastery is still in my view much weaker than mastery and until it gets buffed it will sit at the bottom of my priority list.  Chaining DS like that is a good idea so long as you wont need the healing in the next few seconds and the legs would really synergise well with that. 

 

I got a neck today from the cache that gives 5% more runic power which might help feed that DS habit of yours Aegis if you can get them both. 

:)

I disagree with us being weaker than paladins, tbh. I'm running both tanks, and each tank has it's strengths and weaknesses. paladins have much more utility, but DKs are actually stronger than paladins in actual boss fights (mainly looking at tyrannical). 

And Damage is a non-issue as a DK tank, tbh. on most mythic dungeon bosses, i'm pulling well over 200k. Yes, paladins and druids do more. but we're still well above DH/warr/monk.

[Sniz 60]

3 hours ago, Phenomena said:

I've been lucky with legendarys ( Cazna ) so they help out but scratching those and looking into the raw stats.

I'm running with following stats:

Crit 26%

Haste 21,5%

Mastery 34,7%

Vers 1,5%

 

The key is crit as it's interacting with your golden trait based on crit%. 5% crit doesnt seem like much but if you look at it this way 20% = 1/5 chance and 25% = 1/4 chance.

I strongly recommend 25% crit and 20% haste as base from there it's all about your playstyle and luck with gear.

Skeletal Shattering is nice, but not worth it to stack.  It feels like a buff when you get it because you have some crit already when you research it. It would only be a 5% better chance to mitigate 8% damage. Versa is a 100% chance to mitigate 2.5%, if all percentages are the same.

100 hits

100000 damage each

10m total damage taken

1% crit means 1 hit will be mitigated 8%.  100000 * .08= 8000 damage mitigated.

1% versa means 100 hits will be mitigated .5%. 10m * .005= 50000 damage mitigated

Its not even close.  The strength of crit is still parry.

1% crit = +/- .35% parry? (I have to test this).  Meaning you'll feel the effect of a full mitigation once every 3rd 100 hit fight.  But when you do its for a full 100k hit.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Sniz

[Shells 64]

1 hour ago, Aegis said:

I disagree with us being weaker than paladins, tbh. I'm running both tanks, and each tank has it's strengths and weaknesses. paladins have much more utility, but DKs are actually stronger than paladins in actual boss fights (mainly looking at tyrannical). 

And Damage is a non-issue as a DK tank, tbh. on most mythic dungeon bosses, i'm pulling well over 200k. Yes, paladins and druids do more. but we're still well above DH/warr/monk.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. 

I agree we are on par with the Paladins apart from the amount of utility they bring. I would prefer if we had a bit more dps to counter the perceived notion that we are weaker than they are.   There is a notion among some that BDK are too weak for high end Mythic plus and that pallys and bears are better. 

Druid will likely get hit with the nerf bat in 7.1.5, hope the bat doesnt break on their fur :)

DK's are in a good place now with the return of IBF, give us some sort of a more meaningful run speed increase or make WW a shorter CD and buff mastery, even a bit to allow us to get more use out of the second golden trait and I would be very happy.

[Sniz 60]

For the sake of arguement though, there does exist an opportunity for a low haste high mastery/crit build to work in one particular circumstance.  Extremely high end encounters and a playstyle that focuses on DSing to take advantage of the 20% of damage taken in the previous 5 seconds.  In this case mastery does indeed scale with content.  But you'd have to consistently take around 250k damage per second for it to work and use parry's full mitigation as a catch up.

Its a playstyle choice I guess.  But this leads me to the true criticism of the mastery rework in Legion, and that is the more stam you have, the more damage you have to take for mastery to really work and the more mastery you have the less damage you will take, which hurts mastery.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Sniz

[Sniz 60]

18 minutes ago, Shells said:

Sorry, I should have been clearer. 

I agree we are on par with the Paladins apart from the amount of utility they bring. I would prefer if we had a bit more dps to counter the perceived notion that we are weaker than they are.   There is a notion among some that BDK are too weak for high end Mythic plus and that pallys and bears are better. 

Druid will likely get hit with the nerf bat in 7.1.5, hope the bat doesnt break on their fur :)

DK's are in a good place now with the return of IBF, give us some sort of a more meaningful run speed increase or make WW a shorter CD and buff mastery, even a bit to allow us to get more use out of the second golden trait and I would be very happy.

Oh Shells i know where I got the versa % to heals received....Lana'thel's Lament.  The legendary ring.  For some reason i associated it as a versa buff, even though its actual mechanic is different.

[Phenomena 2]

1 hour ago, Sniz said:

Skeletal Shattering is nice, but not worth it to stack.  It feels like a buff when you get it because you have some crit already when you research it. It would only be a 5% better chance to mitigate 8% damage. Versa is a 100% chance to mitigate 2.5%, if all percentages are the same.

100 hits

100000 damage each

10m total damage taken

1% crit means 1 hit will be mitigated 8%.  100000 * .08= 8000 damage mitigated.

1% versa means 100 hits will be mitigated .5%. 10m * .005= 50000 damage mitigated

Its not even close.  The strength of crit is still parry.

1% crit = +/- .35% parry? (I have to test this).  Meaning you'll feel the effect of a full mitigation once every 3rd 100 hit fight.  But when you do its for a full 100k hit.

As you notice didn't I take any parry into account. But the damage reduction from your golden is a bonus you gain. 1% crit = 0.5% parry

and in raw stats is it not fair to compare 1% crit to 1% versa as you need to invest more stats in versa to get 1%.

The 25% crit and 20% haste is the soft cap for a Blood DK. Then if you want to invest in versa or mastery is more how you want to play your DK and what gear you get.

 

Reactive or proactive.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Phenomena

[Sniz 60]

36 minutes ago, Phenomena said:

As you notice didn't I take any parry into account. But the damage reduction from your golden is a bonus you gain. 1% crit = 0.5% parry

and in raw stats is it not fair to compare 1% crit to 1% versa as you need to invest more stats in versa to get 1%.

The 25% crit and 20% haste is the soft cap for a Blood DK. Then if you want to invest in versa or mastery is more how you want to play your DK and what gear you get.

 

Reactive or proactive.

Whats the % per secondary stat ratio? Im having trouble finding info online while at work.

 

Im planning on trying to figure this out when i log on next.

example:

1000 crit = X%

1000 vers = y%

etc etc

Edited November 30, 2016 by Sniz

[Phenomena 2]

22 minutes ago, Sniz said:

Whats the % per secondary stat ratio? Im having trouble finding info online while at work.

 

Im planning on trying to figure this out when i log on next.

example:

1000 crit = X%

1000 vers = y%

etc etc

350 crit = 1% crit

325 haste = 1% haste

400 versatility = 1% versa

233 mastery = 1% mastery

 

when the stats are provided on an Item they are the same amount regardless of it's haste, crit, versa or mastery.

the base Idea of the stat remain the same interms of what they provide. Except crit that gains an extra value thru our golden trait. Do you understand my point?

A pretty easy way to find the stat ratio is by going to armory ...hover your mouse over the stat ..it will say you have x amount of stat and you gain (+ amount %)

Edited November 30, 2016 by Phenomena