Blood DK stat caps (soft/hard)

[Sniz 60]

55 minutes ago, Phenomena said:

350 crit = 1% crit

325 haste = 1% haste

400 versatility = 1% versa

233 mastery = 1% mastery

 

when the stats are provided on an Item they are the same amount regardless of it's haste, crit, versa or mastery.

the base Idea of the stat remain the same interms of what they provide. Except crit that gains an extra value thru our golden trait. Do you understand my point?

Thank you and yes, I understand your point about skeletal shattering.  My issue is its overall mitigation value.

I like the initial boost for sure.  It was my first dragon.

But adding more crit to take advantage of it more, to me, adds almost negligible mitigation returns, comparitively.

Like my breakdown shows, 1% more crit adds a 1% chance to mitigate 8% and very roughly a +/- .37% chance to parry.  Makeing SS *maybe* a 20% mitigation boost to parry alone.

I used Ursoc as an example before, based on logs.

Say Ursoc hits you 100 times per fight with all his abilities, averaging 1million per hit.

1% crit will save you only 80k in damage from SS and 1m from parry roughly every third fight, on average.

Jusr the base damage mitigation factor alone, Versa saves you 500k per fight. Or 437,500 if you factor in the stat scaling you quoted.

Im just not seeing a reason take crit past say 20% parry, for mitigation purposes.

According to my calculations, as a mitigation stat, crit/parry+SS is performing 15% less efficiently per stat point than *just* versatility's mitigation component.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Sniz

[Phenomena 2]

1 hour ago, Sniz said:

Thank you and yes, I understand your point about skeletal shattering.  My issue is its overall mitigation value.

I like the initial boost for sure.  It was my first dragon.

But adding more crit to take advantage of it more, to me, adds almost negligible mitigation returns, comparitively.

Like my breakdown shows, 1% more crit adds a 1% chance to mitigate 8% and very roughly a +/- .37% chance to parry.  Makeing SS *maybe* a 20% mitigation boost to parry alone.

I used Ursoc as an example before, based on logs.

Say Ursoc hits you 100 times per fight with all his abilities, averaging 1million per hit.

1% crit will save you only 80k in damage from SS and 1m from parry roughly every third fight, on average.

Versa saves you 500k per fight. Or 437,500 if you factor in the stat scaling you quoted.

Im just not seeing a reason take crit past say 20% parry, for mitigation purposes.

Skipping strength out of this totally.

We agree that mastery is now pretty underwealming and not like old days however in terms of pure damage it's a cheap investment.

Using my character for example Cazna:

Getting 25% parry translates to 6% more crit. aka 2100 relocated from other stats.

2100 = 6% crit or 5,25% versa or 9% mastery. I refuse to go below 20% haste.

Using Ursoc as an example:

lets say he does 100 attacks on the fight

20% = every 5th hit = 0 damage = 20 attacks misses

25% = every 4th hit = 0 damage = 25 attacks misses

the 5% extra benefit in parry translates into a 25% miss rate gain.

Now looking at the fight itself as a DK once you have the HP and armor his hits will not 1 shot you.

Now looking into versa if i provided 5,25% more versa instead I'd gain 2,65% more damage reduction and 5,25% more healing

Lets say for making things easy his hits are 500k each and your HPS is 200k. This would translate into 13250 less damage taken each hit.

Now he hits me  78 times  (22% parry) = 13 250 x 78 less damage taken on those 78 hits = 1 033 500 less damage taken and 10k HPS better.

With 25% parry = 500k x 3 =1,5 M + (0,06 x (500000x0,08)x75) = 180 000 from golden trait = 1 680 000 less damage taken.

I dont know about you the small damage reduction gain by 13K will not be something I'll really notice when I'm tanking Ursoc but I notice when I don't get hit. We also know that we wont heal 200k as skada merge everything.

As a sidenote: you need 16000 versa to provide 20% damage reduction ( same as bone shield), with 16000 crit you almost gain 46% crit.

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Phenomena

[Sniz 60]

53 minutes ago, Phenomena said:

Getting 25% parry translates to 6% more crit. aka 2100 relocated from other stats.

Thanks for the breakdown.  Its was definately thought provoking.

My one issue is this conversion.  Looking at our characters side by side: Me/You

Overall Crit Chance:

20.86/26.14 (after night elf racial 1% boost)

Crit % based off rating:

15.89/20.14

Crit Rating:

5550/7050 (after 2% crit rating human racial boost)

Parry Rating:

5441/7050

Parry % chance (increase):

10.57/13.68

Overall Parry Chance:

20.3/22.18

You have 5.28% better crit chance, 1500 more crit rating, 4.25% better crit % based off rating, 1609 better parry rating, 3.12% parry  increase...

but only 1.8% parry % better overall.

This drastically affects how much crit rating converts to overall parry chance.

1500 crit rating either = 3.12% parry chance (480 crit rating per 1% parry) or 1.8% parry overall  (797 crit rating per 1% parry).

 

Versa for me is 392 points per 1% heal and 783 points per 1% mitigation.

 

 

[Sniz 60]

Unless somewhere btw 20% and 25% crit there is a massive parry rating DR thresehold.

[Sniz 60]

18 hours ago, Phenomena said:

Skipping strength out of this totally.

We agree that mastery is now pretty underwealming and not like old days however in terms of pure damage it's a cheap investment.

Using my character for example Cazna:

Getting 25% parry translates to 6% more crit. aka 2100 relocated from other stats.

2100 = 6% crit or 5,25% versa or 9% mastery. I refuse to go below 20% haste.

Using Ursoc as an example:

lets say he does 100 attacks on the fight

20% = every 5th hit = 0 damage = 20 attacks misses

25% = every 4th hit = 0 damage = 25 attacks misses

the 5% extra benefit in parry translates into a 25% miss rate gain.

Now looking at the fight itself as a DK once you have the HP and armor his hits will not 1 shot you.

Now looking into versa if i provided 5,25% more versa instead I'd gain 2,65% more damage reduction and 5,25% more healing

Lets say for making things easy his hits are 500k each and your HPS is 200k. This would translate into 13250 less damage taken each hit.

Now he hits me  78 times  (22% parry) = 13 250 x 78 less damage taken on those 78 hits = 1 033 500 less damage taken and 10k HPS better.

With 25% parry = 500k x 3 =1,5 M + (0,06 x (500000x0,08)x75) = 180 000 from golden trait = 1 680 000 less damage taken.

I dont know about you the small damage reduction gain by 13K will not be something I'll really notice when I'm tanking Ursoc but I notice when I don't get hit. We also know that we wont heal 200k as skada merge everything.

As a sidenote: you need 16000 versa to provide 20% damage reduction ( same as bone shield), with 16000 crit you almost gain 46% crit.

 

Im sorry to say this because this has been an interesting discussion, but your crit-to-parry conversion is off by an astronomical amount which throws of your entire analysis.

I run multiple gear sets with different levels of crit and my overall parry chance went up marginally.

I tested 3 sets, one with roughly 20, 25 and 30% crit

crit%/parry%

20.86/20.30

25.44/21.78

30.1/23.64

Overall, from 20.86 to 30.1 crit (+9.24%), I gained only 3.34% parry.

If 1% of crit costs 350, you need 3234 stat points to go up 3.34% parry, (or 968 per 1%).

Putting those resources into versa:

8.08% better heal and 4.04% mitigation to all attacks.

 

So, in a nutshell, versa is 17% more efficient, point per point, from a mitigation standpoint, than crit-to-parry is, and thats without including the bonus to healing done.

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by Sniz

[Oro 4]

I know Str gives very little parry but have you focured in it in those numbers?

[Sniz 60]

39 minutes ago, Oro said:

I know Str gives very little parry but have you focured in it in those numbers?

Its difficult.

I kind of think of it as a background benefit to parry that comes from ilvl.

but what i can tell you is, my 30.1% crit build has a trinket with 1233 strength on it, whereas my other builds don't.  And if you look at the growth in parry from 20 to 25 (+4.58% crit) and compared it to the parry growth from 25 to 30 (+4.66% crit) there is a slightly bigger jump in parry despite similar growth in crit %.  (1.48% parry growth with +4.58% crit.  1.86% parry growth with +4.66% crit and 1233 strength)

So roughly 1200 strength builds additional parry by roughly .35%.

but i see what you are getting at.

you want to see how strength affects parry so as to determine if a higher ilvl piece with more strength tips the scales even if the lower ilvl piece has better stats.  Tough to put an exact number on that because you'd also need to factor in fallen crusader, leach, heart strike...etc.

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by Sniz

[Oro 4]

To me it seems like it will be hard to justify pushing for 25% parry at curent gear lvls.

Damned, I need to find giod Vers gear.

[Sniz 60]

8 minutes ago, Oro said:

To me it seems like it will be hard to justify pushing for 25% parry at curent gear lvls.

Damned, I need to find giod Vers gear.

Yeah, 25% parry is a ridiculous stretch. 20% is very obtainable.  At least for a pure survivability build.

stacking crit has use for dos/mythic plus builds though.

[Phenomena 2]

These are the new stat wieghts for 7.1.5.

• Critical Strike - Now requires 400 rating per 1% Critical Strike, up from 350.
• Haste - Now requires 375 rating per 1% Haste, up from 325.
• Mastery - Now requires 400 rating per 1 Mastery, up from 350.
• Versatility - Now requires 475 rating per 1% damage and healing increase, up from 400. Now requires 950 rating per 1% damage taken reduction, up from 800.

Making versa worse, the mysterious thing here is why mastery is 350 when I cleary gained more %.

But all information I have gathered before regarding crit/parry have always showed .5% gain to parry.

The "new" parry ratio from crit (if there is any) have not been presented.

This leads to following conclution, the most important thing is the Ilvl on an item. Then getting your haste to 20% unbuffed.

20% Haste is the only soft cap there is for a blood DK, all other stats work.

Traits on your weapon is not presented.

This this thread was about about soft/hard cap, my co tank (also DK) had crappy crit/vers. but rediculous high amount of mastery. His preformance was equal to mine leading to indual preformance.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Phenomena

[Sniz 60]

8 hours ago, Phenomena said:

These are the new stat wieghts for 7.1.5.

• Critical Strike - Now requires 400 rating per 1% Critical Strike, up from 350.
• Haste - Now requires 375 rating per 1% Haste, up from 325.
• Mastery - Now requires 400 rating per 1 Mastery, up from 350.
• Versatility - Now requires 475 rating per 1% damage and healing increase, up from 400. Now requires 950 rating per 1% damage taken reduction, up from 800.

Making versa worse, the mysterious thing here is why mastery is 350 when I cleary gained more %.

But all information I have gathered before regarding crit/parry have always showed .5% gain to parry.

The "new" parry ratio from crit (if there is any) have not been presented.

This leads to following conclution, the most important thing is the Ilvl on an item. Then getting your haste to 20% unbuffed.

20% Haste is the only soft cap there is for a blood DK, all other stats work.

Traits on your weapon is not presented.

This this thread was about about soft/hard cap, my co tank (also DK) had crappy crit/vers. but rediculous high amount of mastery. His preformance was equal to mine leading to indual preformance.

 

You really hate versatility!

I wouldn't say 20% haste is the soft "cap" either, its more of a soft "floor". The only soft cap before DR I know of with Haste is about 40%, because at that point, with Bone Shield's haste bonus, you start hitting the global cooldown with Blood Lust.

 

*warning* This is a long post so, it may take a minute!

 

Anyway, I tested the point-per-percent breakdown by swapping in and out an Unstable Arcanocrystal that gives +807 to each secondary and here is the current breakdown for patch 7.1, discounting my human racial. (As you stated above).

Crit: 350 points per 1%

Versa: 400/800 points per 1%

And you are right, I'm gaining more from mastery as well.

Mastery: 233 points per 1%

 

Using the speculated nerfs to stats for 7.1.5:

Crit: 14.28% point efficiency nerf

Versa: 18.75% point efficiency nerf

Mastery: 14.28% point efficiency nerf

 

Looking strictly at mitigation:

Since each 1% parry is full mitigation (a 1% chance to block 1 extra hit out of 100) if all abilities hit for the same, versatility's 1% reduction of damage of all 100 hits is just as good. (Although I recognize that if you indeed block 1 extra hit, it is one hit Versatility does not work, but the same goes the other way around) The problem with parry is it is RNG based, so you don't know which damaging attack will be parried (you could parry a big hit, you could parry a small hit) whereas versatility is indiscriminate.  All attacks are mitigated, regardless of type (physical, melee or magic).  It just depends on how you prefer to mitigate, but the efficiency per point is different.

Versa: 800 points per 1% mitigated (950 @ 7.1.5)

Crit: 991 points per 1% parry (1132 @ 7.1.5, if the 7.1.5 nerf effects it linearly)

Strength: 2498 per 1% parry (same? @ 7.1.5)

 

Now DR is effecting the parry from strength and Crit I believe, to an unknown degree, regardless, Versatility is more efficient per point for mitigation purposes at around 20% overall Crit.  (although it does get a touch closer  when 7.1.5 hits)

 

I also checked Stam by replacing one piece of gear that has just stamina (and other none factoring secondaries).

1 Stam on Gear = 2 Effective Stamina

1 Effective Stam = 60 Health

1 Stam on Gear =  roughly 120 Health

So, 1 Stam on Gear = roughly 12 base DS heal (1000 Stam on Gear = 12000 better DS heal etc etc)

(These are very rough figures, because my actual heal from testing a piece of gear with 1147 more Stam was 13,266 which is actually only a 11.56 heal per stam point on gear.)

Going further down the rabbit hole, Versatility and Mastery are exponentials of Stamina, meaning the 10% DS heal and BS get stronger the more Stamina you have.  But as far as raw healing is concerned 1% versatility gives you 1% more DS heal and 1% more mastery gives you 1% better *physical* absorb.

Comparing Versatility to Mastery:

Mastery 233 points per 1%

Versatility 400 points per 1%

Clearly Mastery is more efficient.  However, Mastery's absorb is only effective against Physical attacks, whereas Versatility's heal works regardless of the type of damage taken, and heals from HS as well.  It just heals damage.

 

So, lets get down to the nitty gritty. Weights.

 

For mitigation, since 1% parry = 1% mitigation

If Versatility is 1.  Parry is also 1.

Factoring in point efficiency.

Versatility= 1

Crit = .8072

Strength = .32

 

For Heal/Absorb:

Mastery = 1

Versatility = .58

 

At this point, because they are so different and depend on other things, it is beyond my math skills to mesh Versa and Mastery's effective heals/absorbs with mitigation to give one set of stat weights.  Versa and mastery are exponentials of Haste and Stamina as well, which complicates matters even further.  But I'm working on it.

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Sniz

[Shells 64]

Nice post Sniz.

 

i dont think anyone loves Versa as much as you do.

:)

Having said that, I am coming to rate it more than I did in the past, its way head of mastery for me now rather than being tied last. Will continue to experiment with it (when I get time). 

Good stuff.

[Sniz 60]

6 hours ago, Shells said:

Nice post Sniz.

 

i dont think anyone loves Versa as much as you do.

:)

Having said that, I am coming to rate it more than I did in the past, its way head of mastery for me now rather than being tied last. Will continue to experiment with it (when I get time). 

Good stuff.

I was never a big fan of Versatility.  The numbers are the numbers.  

Its just that DKs are such an interesting class to take advantage of it.  Lets face it, there are other tank classes that are deemed "better" simply because they have higher amounts of passive mitigation, but they can't heal the way DKs can.

Versatility for DKs boosts this passive mit, but are also in a unique place to take advantage of the proactive healing.  

That being said. Neglect the other stats? Hell no. But just get a solid base of them and switch to versa.  Pretty simple.

[Mmimzie 3]

One thing on your verse Parry comparison. Not all damage is parried only attack damage right??? So gaurm i dont think his bites get parried or spear, and stuff like that right??? So Verse's mitigation effects more types of damage meaning 1% verse is the same as maybe 1.5% parry. Though this is a fight by fight bases right??? 

Look at some logs odyn is 64% attack damage, Gaurm is 71% parry able. Spider i've seen as low as 17% attack damage and as high as 60%.   Just as points of comparison.

Also when you say mastery is physical Mit only. This actually doesn't matter. In the vast majority of cases, unles your doing a weird tank roll like some strats for spider.  As the shield isn't so big or does have a proc where there is a chance it wont be used.  So when looking at your total mitigation even if a boss is doing 70% magical or non physical damage odds are your going to use all of your mastery shield. So the fact that it's physical damage can be virtually ignored as your over all tankiness will be effected the same, and as mitigation from verse, crit, or mastery wont really be what save you from any one shot mechanics, then we can safely say these stats are there primarily for maintenance mitigation.

As far as haste importance. One other factor is that haste increases VB up time. as VB is technically 30% damage mitigation. Any haste calculation can get that under it's belt as well. 

[Phenomena 2]

On 2016-12-03 at 3:59 AM, Sniz said:

 

That being said. Neglect the other stats? Hell no. But just get a solid base of them and switch to versa.  Pretty simple.

Kinda what I've been saying all along =). 20% haste and 25% crit. Then what ever you have from there is determented by ilvl. While mastery is pretty underwealming as it.

[Sniz 60]

5 hours ago, Phenomena said:

Kinda what I've been saying all along =). 20% haste and 25% crit. Then what ever you have from there is determented by ilvl. While mastery is pretty underwealming as it.

Close.  There is a difference between offering an opinion about what you *can* do, and what people *should* do.  In the later case, you need to justify it.

20% haste isnt a "cap", its a floor.

25% crit is too much, its more like 20% as a survivability cap.  Any more is for DPS purposes.

ilvl shouldnt dictate either. +/- 10 ilvl is roughly the split where secondaries still outweigh primaries.

And personally, I din't think theres a reason to go past 25% mastery unless you are forced to because there is nothing 35% mastery gives you that 25% and other stats can't.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Sniz

[Sniz 60]

On 12/3/2016 at 11:27 AM, Mmimzie said:

One thing on your verse Parry comparison. Not all damage is parried only attack damage right??? So gaurm i dont think his bites get parried or spear, and stuff like that right??? So Verse's mitigation effects more types of damage meaning 1% verse is the same as maybe 1.5% parry. Though this is a fight by fight bases right??? 

Look at some logs odyn is 64% attack damage, Gaurm is 71% parry able. Spider i've seen as low as 17% attack damage and as high as 60%.   Just as points of comparison.

Also when you say mastery is physical Mit only. This actually doesn't matter. In the vast majority of cases, unles your doing a weird tank roll like some strats for spider.  As the shield isn't so big or does have a proc where there is a chance it wont be used.  So when looking at your total mitigation even if a boss is doing 70% magical or non physical damage odds are your going to use all of your mastery shield. So the fact that it's physical damage can be virtually ignored as your over all tankiness will be effected the same, and as mitigation from verse, crit, or mastery wont really be what save you from any one shot mechanics, then we can safely say these stats are there primarily for maintenance mitigation.

As far as haste importance. One other factor is that haste increases VB up time. as VB is technically 30% damage mitigation. Any haste calculation can get that under it's belt as well. 

-good observation regarding parryable damage.

-and yeah, i dont recall a fight where im not using up a Blood Shield. Lol.  I guess the equalizer is that versa heals with HS.  Id have to look at logs to see.

-haste is quite clearly the best stat for blood.  I think the debate is *when* should a player start "stacking" it,  or in other words, dropping other stats to do it, like the reforging days.

[Shells 64]

20% haste is what I would recommend a starting BDK to aim for , not a hard cap at all. 

I use the word recommend as that is all it is, a recommendation.  @Sniz is correct in his assessment there @Phenomena, try to be a bit more careful about throwing around suggestions , especailly about ilvl which at the moment is garbage as it in itself is not enough to replace well itemized bits with a higher ilvl bit with poor stats on it. 

This will change with 7.1.5 somewhat, so by all means save any good high ilvl bits you find till then but dont go mad geting into high ilvl bits just to gimp yourself in the meantime.

 

Thats my 2 cents anyways.

[Mmimzie 3]

Haste wise 20% is nessary to have a decent feeling play where your not struggling to keep boneshield up in high strip situations, though this will be lessed some woth 7.1.5

 

From there verse and crit are equally good until crit hits 20%. Then its all verse.