Frost Dps Help

[Dronkul 0]

I'd like to think I'm doing decent with mastering my class but I've started checking my logs and uploading them, I'm usually towards the upper part of our raids (guild just started), using Warcraft Logs, I've got a long way to go I'm sitting aroun 28-38 percentile. I'd love to be pushing 300k-350k+. 
Here's my Armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/zuluhed/Dronkul/simple
and a few logs, the first log (Just Nythendra) was just last night (12/20) and I was focusing on my Icy Talons uptime. I was trying to get a tome to switch gathering storm to runic attenuation as well, but I haven't done that yet. 
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/p3WC1PcryVDL7N6q
This log was from a true (first) guild run 10 days ago
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/241L8PgMFQWkfbjp

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 

Happy Holidays from the Boys, Dronkul.

[Drtain 74]

Yeah as you said you could use a little bit of work on icy talons uptime it's little lower than it could/should be. Understandable you got 3 rots so happens but still. Couple times it fell without rot being on you. Your obliterations were spread out more than they should be couple of them had like 5-15 second delays which caused them to not line up with Pillar of frost. Pillar of frost had slight delays in some of that casts with that said nothing super impactful unlike the obliterations. Big tip that will probably help you a lot is make sure you use Sindragosa's fury when you have pillar of frost and ideally a potion up. You could be using flask, potion, food these would all yeild probably a 20k increase over all just from the passive buffs and uses of potions. Avalanche imo isn't the best talent either I believe you should try icecaps. I find it to be better and believe it is better. These were for your https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/p3WC1PcryVDL7N6q log. 

 

Hopefully these tips help, your logs were logged in advanced logging so i couldn't give you anymore info but I believe your frozen pulse damage is a little low which means you weren't under 2 runes consistently which would probably yeild you some more dps.

If you can do all these things Main points being Icy talons, obliteration, and flask/potion/food. You'll probably find your self being above 300k

[Sniz 60]

Avalanche is simming 3k more for me and represents 2.6% of damage done.

If the sim dps is 312k, that means avalanche is responsible for 8k, and icecap 5k.

[Sniz 60]

But on further thought, it depends on whether you can expect to get enough oblit crits in a single encounter to be able to take advantage of an extra pillar within that timeframe.

As context, to take advantage of one full pillar you would need at least 20 oblit crit strikes.  It depends on your haste and crit strike, but that seems doable in 3-4 minutes. But even then, the value of icecap drops in favor of avalanche between those 3-4 min windows.

Maybe i have my sim set to a 5min encounter average and avalanche pulls ahead.  Hypothetically, perhaps if I set it to 4 min or 8min encounters icecap would shoot ahead.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Sniz

[Drtain 74]

With obliteration you can average about an extra 8-15 crits (some where in there) per fight on 4 min fights. Part of the reason Icecaps is better is because if you're using prolonged power you can fit 2 pillars of frost into 1 potions meaning your potion is getting 40% additional use basically. I 100% in favor of icecap just because of the fact that nearly every parse uses icecap regardless of if they have the bracers or not above the 90% mark.

[Orcknight 0]

Don't want to start my own thread with the same title, so I'm going to jump into this one :)

So, basically, I've been playing DK since Wrath, and I've always been fairly top of my spec. I also have almost always used Frost. Now, only since I've started to get higher gear, I find it impossible to get high iL% performance on some bosses.

Ran EN HC tonight on a farm run, and on Nythendra and a couple other bosses, my % was disappointingly low. I'm wondering if anyone can spot what might be going wrong. Are my stats no good? (Think I've like 25% crit going to 30% when EoC builds up, 22% haste, most of the rest in mastery). Am I mishandling any casts? Or is it simply the lack of good legendaries holding me way back? I feel like on that Nythendra pull, I performed as good as I possibly could have.

Just to note as well, I've been simming my gear as I've gone along so I definitely have the best subset of gear on that I could have.

Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LH1cGmaQnNWr2CM9/#type=damage-done&fight=61
Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/kilrogg/Orcknight/simple

Materials: 1300 str flask, stats potions, 300 haste food.

Feel free to look through the other fights other than Nythendra, some of them have better performance but a lot of the patchwerk fights particularly are no where near where I want them to be.

As a sidenote: I use Machine Gun rotation in M+, and while I never see logs with %'s for that, I think that does go fairly well too.

Thanks in advance of any help you can offer :)

-Orc

Edited December 22, 2016 by Orcknight

[Sniz 60]

1 hour ago, Drtain said:

With obliteration you can average about an extra 8-15 crits (some where in there) per fight on 4 min fights. Part of the reason Icecaps is better is because if you're using prolonged power you can fit 2 pillars of frost into 1 potions meaning your potion is getting 40% additional use basically. I 100% in favor of icecap just because of the fact that nearly every parse uses icecap regardless of if they have the bracers or not above the 90% mark.

Ahh yes. Thats my mistake. I was simming GA.

Ill check tomorrow and resim. Im pretty confident your right.

[Browed 19]

8 hours ago, Orcknight said:

Or is it simply the lack of good legendaries holding me way back? I feel like on that Nythendra pull, I performed as good as I possibly could have.

Just to note as well, I've been simming my gear as I've gone along so I definitely have the best subset of gear on that I could have.

Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LH1cGmaQnNWr2CM9/#type=damage-done&fight=61
Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/kilrogg/Orcknight/simple

Feel free to look through the other fights other than Nythendra, some of them have better performance but a lot of the patchwerk fights particularly are no where near where I want them to be.

@Orcknight

I haven't yet been through the logs in great detail but my initial summary would be.. yes, those legendarys are not good for dps (great for tanking), certainly in comparison to the best in slot possibilities. That will certainly account for the majority of the difference in ilvl performance, as most others at the same ilvl will have at least one dps legendary I would say.

As a comparison to your 3 minute kill: I had a loooong fight (over 7 mins) for Nythendra Heroic with my super casual guild, fairly average to poor performance on my part (terrible uptime on Icy Talons), yet.. due to my legendaries I came out 70%+ ilvl/perf   https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/11881313/10/#boss=1853

You do seem to have had incredibly poor fortune there unless you switched spec from Unholy and have a good one for that in a bag.

Secondly, I think you will probably see an increase if you take Avalanche over Icecap, until you have the leg-bracers. Or at least sim it with your current gear.

The other factor is maxing traits on your artifact, if you have switched spec, you may well be seeing a gap created there too that isn't reflected in pure ilvl stat comparison... the first Soul Biter point is pretty significant considering the numbers now.. 400k to 420k as a crude example which most Frost DKs like myself who have been such from release (despite being very casual) should now have at least this much invested in their artifact.

I'm still analyzing logs so I may well come back and edit/comment below.

 

Sim (7.1.5) results:

We have nearly identical sim dps despite the ilvl difference so those changes do show up well and further highlight what I said above about the legendary situation...

Switching the Avalanche talent to Icecap on your sim is a minor loss, but to me it's a minor gain.

;TLDR

You're not doing much wrong, if anything, hope for some good drops ;)

Stat wise, I think you could certainly afford to drop some crit (EoC gives you a lot) and haste to go into mastery (although I anticipate this being more a requirement with 7.1.5 when the new BoS builds become #1)

Edited December 22, 2016 by Browed

[Orcknight 0]

4 hours ago, Browed said:

@Orcknight

I haven't yet been through the logs in great detail but my initial summary would be.. yes, those legendarys are not good for dps (great for tanking), certainly in comparison to the best in slot possibilities. That will certainly account for the majority of the difference in ilvl performance, as most others at the same ilvl will have at least one dps legendary I would say.

As a comparison to your 3 minute kill: I had a loooong fight (over 7 mins) for Nythendra Heroic with my super casual guild, fairly average to poor performance on my part (terrible uptime on Icy Talons), yet.. due to my legendaries I came out 70%+ ilvl/perf   https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/11881313/10/#boss=1853

You do seem to have had incredibly poor fortune there unless you switched spec from Unholy and have a good one for that in a bag.

Secondly, I think you will probably see an increase if you take Avalanche over Icecap, until you have the leg-bracers. Or at least sim it with your current gear.

The other factor is maxing traits on your artifact, if you have switched spec, you may well be seeing a gap created there too that isn't reflected in pure ilvl stat comparison... the first Soul Biter point is pretty significant considering the numbers now.. 400k to 420k as a crude example which most Frost DKs like myself who have been such from release (despite being very casual) should now have at least this much invested in their artifact.

I'm still analyzing logs so I may well come back and edit/comment below.

 

Sim (7.1.5) results:

We have nearly identical sim dps despite the ilvl difference so those changes do show up well and further highlight what I said above about the legendary situation...

Switching the Avalanche talent to Icecap on your sim is a minor loss, but to me it's a minor gain.

;TLDR

You're not doing much wrong, if anything, hope for some good drops ;)

Stat wise, I think you could certainly afford to drop some crit (EoC gives you a lot) and haste to go into mastery (although I anticipate this being more a requirement with 7.1.5 when the new BoS builds become #1)

Hey man,

Cheers for the response. So just to outline some of your queries first: I started as Unholy for literally about 2 weeks, so barely past the levelling experience. I received no legendaries in Unholy. I have had 3 drop so far, and they are the 3 worst one's. Xavaric's, the cape and Aggramar's Stride. Equipping the boots instead of the neck is surprisingly a slight simDPS loss hence why I have the two extremely defensive ones on at the minute. I am hoping to get the 4th soon, and whatever it is it'll have to be some level of a DPS increase.

In terms of Ava vs. Icecap, I have been experimenting with both. I always use Icecap in M+ for the extra stuns, and I see a lot of top simming DK's using Icecap for raids so I wanted to give it a go in those logs. As you mentioned later, sims show Ava as slightly better, but I think Icecap gives me better ability to line up FP with Obliteration. Either way, I don't think that particular talent choice makes a HUGE difference to DPS.

My artifact is either 36 or 37, so all traits are there and I have the 6% damage buff active in that log, think it was 5.5% at that stage though. My relics are a little bit meh in terms of traits, but again I don't think that's having a huge effect.

Good to know it is indeed mostly coming from the legendary problem. As I said, I've been playing frost for years and it's a weird circumstance for me to have such low performance percentages :P. I assume my Icecap up times (like 92% on that Nyth) are reasonable and not causing an issue? Hopefully I do get a good legendary soon, ideally Toravon's, think it simmed for like 20-30k DPS increase :p. In terms of stats then, I'm currently equipped with the best I can be out of what I have. I though vers > mastery though? I've currently very low vers and I'm kind of hoping for some haste/vers pieces to bump me that little bit more.

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to look at that! Much appreciated :D

-Orc

Edited December 22, 2016 by Orcknight

[Sniz 60]

1 hour ago, Orcknight said:

Hey man,

Cheers for the response. So just to outline some of your queries first: I started as Unholy for literally about 2 weeks, so barely past the levelling experience. I received no legendaries in Unholy. I have had 3 drop so far, and they are the 3 first one's. Xavaric's, the cape and Aggramar's Stride. Equipping the boots instead of the neck is surprisingly a slight simDPS loss hence why I have the two extremely defensive ones on at the minute. I am hoping to get the 4th soon, and whatever it is it'll have to be some level of a DPS increase.

In terms of Ava vs. Icecap, I have been experimenting with both. I always use Icecap in M+ for the extra stuns, and I see a lot of top simming DK's using Icecap for raids so I wanted to give it a go in those logs. As you mentioned later, sims show Ava as slightly better, but I think Icecap gives me better ability to line up FP with Obliteration. Either way, I don't think that particular talent choice makes a HUGE difference to DPS.

My artifact is either 36 or 37, so all traits are there and I have the 6% damage buff active in that log, think it was 5.5% at that stage though. My relics are a little bit meh in terms of traits, but again I don't think that's having a huge effect.

Good to know it is indeed mostly coming from the legendary problem. As I said, I've been playing frost for years and it's a weird circumstance for me to have such low performance percentages :P. I assume my Icecap up times (like 92% on that Nyth) are reasonable and not causing an issue? Hopefully I do get a good legendary soon, ideally Toravon's, think it simmed for like 20-30k DPS increase :p. In terms of stats then, I'm currently equipped with the best I can be out of what I have. I though vers > mastery though? I've currently very low vers and I'm kind of hoping for some haste/vers pieces to bump me that little bit more.

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to look at that! Much appreciated :D

-Orc

With my sims, stat plots are all over the place, so almost quite literally each stat takes turns at being the best.  But for the most part they are pretty equal.

From my own observation, hitting the haste breakpoints of 20% and 31% are the most critical. After that, i treat crit/mast/vers pretty much the same with deference to higher ilvl gear that has more strength.  Otherwise I go with what has the most stats other than haste BUT STILL keeps me above the haste breakpoints.

So for example, if say you have two 865 chests, one with 1000 haste/400crit the other with 800 haste/600 mast, and they both bring you over 31% haste, I would take the one with mast because it keeps you over 31% haste and gives you 200 more mast over crit.

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Sniz

[Kro 3]

welp, I do not wish to play devil's advocate however hitting 31% haste is no simple feat for the average player(I get what your saying tho), and even then u might find maybe a few people if that even pushing that much haste in the top 200 parses my self included. as its not even worth in what u have to sacrifice to attain such a breakpoint.

I mean realistically atm you can only suggest and allow people to figure out there stats for them selves the guide does a good job of that, I mean every parsers is completely different, I see a lot of have low crit base haste high versa with mediocre mast, then others with HIGH mast base haste low crit, and so on and so fourth I my self, run a high mastery build mainly due to my gear which works VERY well and thru hours upon hrs of testing running extra raids swapping out gear and seeing for my self I came up with my current setup even tho it sims funky I can assure you in accual live setting its redonk to the point that I personally don't even use sims.. and as stated on these forums sims are a guideline not the end all be all.  

 

just my 2cents,

 

[Drtain 74]

All I know is i'm just glad unholy doesn't care about stats at all as long as you have 18% haste you can have what ever crit mastery or vers percentages you want (assuming you have unholy bracers this is.)

[Kro 3]

I agree to a degree with frost, having eoc for example helps but as long as your at 20% haste the rest really doesn't matter until you delve further with certain lego's, frost is more about luck,uptime and priotizing certain procs over others. I'm more curious on how people understand their rotation. as lot of these logs I see most of these opener's really don't make sense to me, and I can see the struggle a lot of people have.

 

 

[Sniz 60]

1 hour ago, Kro said:

welp, I do not wish to play devil's advocate however hitting 31% haste is no simple feat for the average player(I get what your saying tho), and even then u might find maybe a few people if that even pushing that much haste in the top 200 parses my self included. as its not even worth in what u have to sacrifice to attain such a breakpoint.

I mean realistically atm you can only suggest and allow people to figure out there stats for them selves the guide does a good job of that, I mean every parsers is completely different, I see a lot of have low crit base haste high versa with mediocre mast, then others with HIGH mast base haste low crit, and so on and so fourth I my self, run a high mastery build mainly due to my gear which works VERY well and thru hours upon hrs of testing running extra raids swapping out gear and seeing for my self I came up with my current setup even tho it sims funky I can assure you in accual live setting its redonk to the point that I personally don't even use sims.. and as stated on these forums sims are a guideline not the end all be all.  

 

just my 2cents,

 

 

I'll admit that my main spec is blood and therefore I carry around a LOT of haste gear by default. This means i'd probably have a difficult time staying at just 20%... Nevertheless, I don't find your position/opinion to incongruent to what I said.

I hope you didnt read my comments to mean that everyone should pour everything into haste until 31% at the expense of all the other stats.  If by my wording that was your impression I apologize.

what i meant to say is from what I see congruent with your opinion.  All stats are pretty viable (meaning different stat combos can work), except for around 20 and 31% haste where getting over that breakpoint becomes important.

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Sniz

[Sniz 60]

1 hour ago, Kro said:

welp, I do not wish to play devil's advocate however hitting 31% haste is no simple feat for the average player(I get what your saying tho), and even then u might find maybe a few people if that even pushing that much haste in the top 200 parses my self included. as its not even worth in what u have to sacrifice to attain such a breakpoint.

I mean realistically atm you can only suggest and allow people to figure out there stats for them selves the guide does a good job of that, I mean every parsers is completely different, I see a lot of have low crit base haste high versa with mediocre mast, then others with HIGH mast base haste low crit, and so on and so fourth I my self, run a high mastery build mainly due to my gear which works VERY well and thru hours upon hrs of testing running extra raids swapping out gear and seeing for my self I came up with my current setup even tho it sims funky I can assure you in accual live setting its redonk to the point that I personally don't even use sims.. and as stated on these forums sims are a guideline not the end all be all.  

 

just my 2cents,

 

 

I'll admit that my main spec is blood and therefore I carry around a LOT of haste gear by default. This means i'd probably have a difficult time staying at just 20%... Nevertheless, I don't find your position/opinion to incongruent to what I said.

I hope you didnt read my comments to mean that everyone should pour everything into haste until 31% at the expense of all the other stats.  If by my wording that was your impression I apologize.

what i meant to say is from what I see congruent with your opinion.  All stats are pretty viable (meaning diffetent star combos can work), except for around 20 and 31% haste where getting over that breakpoint becomes important.

 

[Kro 3]

2 hours ago, Sniz said:

 

I'll admit that my main spec is blood and therefore I carry around a LOT of haste gear by default. This means i'd probably have a difficult time staying at just 20%... Nevertheless, I don't find your position/opinion to incongruent to what I said.

I hope you didnt read my comments to mean that everyone should pour everything into haste until 31% at the expense of all the other stats.  If by my wording that was your impression I apologize.

what i meant to say is from what I see congruent with your opinion.  All stats are pretty viable (meaning diffetent star combos can work), except for around 20 and 31% haste where getting over that breakpoint becomes important.

 

incongruent or not my statement is more of a generalization, really has zero to do with what u said at all, an more so apply's to the generalization of you should do x- y and yadda yadda.  I believe there is too much overthinking put in to secondary stats atm when infact they don't matter that much if you have the basic understanding what said stats accually do for you.., and when 7.1.5 hits their value decreases even more. /shrug.

[Sniz 60]

30 minutes ago, Kro said:

incongruent or not my statement is more of a generalization, really has zero to do with what u said at all, an more so apply's to the generalization of you should do x- y and yadda yadda.  I believe there is too much overthinking put in to secondary stats atm when infact they don't matter that much if you have the basic understanding what said stats accually do for you.., and when 7.1.5 hits their value decreases even more. /shrug.

Since i find that crit/mast/versa all seem to fluctuate as top performer as you gear up, I guess I can agree that in their case, what you take isnt important.  Go with the gear that gives you more of one of whatever it is. (It goes without saying therefore,  that "stat stacking" has become extinct as a consequence).

With the exception of haste where the difference can mean an extra killing machine on obliteration, extra DoT ticks and extra globals between Icy Talons refresh.

Just one example of becoming familiar with the spec through discussing secondary stats on forums.

 

[Dronkul 0]

So, we have since ran through most of EN again.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/maKfL2wrTF4cGCAt/#type=summary&fight=2
The first Nythendra parse is still there from the late night pug run. Everything past that is the guild raid (12/22). I followed your guys' advice for the most part, I haven't tried switching out of avalanche yet, I'm going to try Icecaps the next time we raid. There was a significant improvement in my dps, Thank you very much by the way. I'll also annotate I probably could have pushed higher, I had actually forgotten that Nythendra is still damageable during HotS phase, noob move I know. Question though about Frozen Pulse, I do have the Legendary Belt that procs 2 runes on Obliteration casts, seems to be pretty frequent. Even though I'm trying to burn runes, with Rime procs and the legendary procs I can't get down there easily while keeping up Icy Talons. Should I go for another talent then?

Again, Thanks for the quick responses.

[Sniz 60]

On 12/23/2016 at 8:06 PM, Dronkul said:

So, we have since ran through most of EN again.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/maKfL2wrTF4cGCAt/#type=summary&fight=2
The first Nythendra parse is still there from the late night pug run. Everything past that is the guild raid (12/22). I followed your guys' advice for the most part, I haven't tried switching out of avalanche yet, I'm going to try Icecaps the next time we raid. There was a significant improvement in my dps, Thank you very much by the way. I'll also annotate I probably could have pushed higher, I had actually forgotten that Nythendra is still damageable during HotS phase, noob move I know. Question though about Frozen Pulse, I do have the Legendary Belt that procs 2 runes on Obliteration casts, seems to be pretty frequent. Even though I'm trying to burn runes, with Rime procs and the legendary procs I can't get down there easily while keeping up Icy Talons. Should I go for another talent then?

Again, Thanks for the quick responses.

Taking you last log, Freezing Fog would increase your HB and Frost Fever by around 3.6m. Whereas your FP is twice that. 

HoV is basically a free dry obliterate every 30 seconds, (maybe 9 more obliterates in a 5 min fight?) but resources don't seem to be a problem for you, so its doubtful you'd see much benefit from it.  At least not enough to top 7.33m. Thats just something you have to eyeball, but it doesn't look close.

[Browed 19]

@Orcknight

Saw you in the class hall last night, just wanted to congrats on the 4 x tier 19 ;) ( I'm not jealous :P no, not at all )

I bet your logs look very different now compared to the above posts.

And you got the belt which is another big plus for the newer builds.

I switched from bracers to belt to compliment the helm ( armory in sig ) and it's been great, especially in resource management creating a more full rotation .. almost zero downtime.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Browed