Math nerds, assemble! (ally race question)

[Lockybalboa 618]

Okay nerds, I did some quick looking around but I couldn't find good numbers for this question. 

Granted, we all know that ally racials SUCK. Not even close to the awesome tastiness of Troll or Orc or hell, even Goblin kicks our ass. And we also know that worgen is the "best" of the ally for warlock, and by "best" we mean slightly less worthless than the others, like being the fastest runner at the special olympics. It's gold, but look at the competition...

 

But how much is it REALLY over that of say Gnome? Assuming for a moment that Gnomes are NOT using a dagger or sword (because I raid ten man and well, the odds of me getting a MHOH are low, getting a sword or dagger makes it even low-er) how valuable is 5% mana? How much am I losing by -1% crit?

 

I'm assuming that dwarf is totally @#$!ing useless since warlocks don't use guns, maces, and stoneform is dumb outside of tanking.

 

Same idea with human, spi is useless, swords are meh, and pvp trinket is as situational (or less) than Darkflight.

 

Some good info on this would be nice, or if the work has already been done if someone could just point me to a place to read it that'd be cool. I *know* that the DPS loss is going to be REALLY low but I'd like hard numbers to quote my raid. I'm the DPS officer so I like hard facts, Caesar's wife must be above reproach and all.

 

Thanks, oh masters of the nerd numbers!

 

(Note, all usages of the term(s) "nerds" is that of endearment because I really appreciate you guys. I can mechanics the hell out of a class but I can't math my way out of a wet paper bag.)

[Zagam 1,982]

I think you can run Simcraft to get some model ideas of the difference.  I think I did this a while ago and found the only Horde racial to not be worth anything was Blood Elves, yet we see them everywhere...

 

Been a while since I've been Alliance, so I might miss a race/combination.

 

Human: Trinket, 10% more rep, 1% Expertise with Sword.

Worgen: small sprint, 1% static Crit

Gnome: 5% extra mana

Dwarf: Stoneskin

Draenai/Nightelf: N/A

 

From a non-numbers point of view, I'd be pumped about 10% extra rep until the rep wasn't needed anymore.  Temporary racials such as these are lame.  The trinket has a ton of uses and is one of the most OP racials out there.  1% Expertise is worth 340 rating points and makes its so you only need 4760 rating points of hit and expertise.  So you can say that is worth an extra gem's worth of secondary stats. 

 

Worgens' Crit passive is worth a lot more rating, approximately 600 IIRC.  The extra sprint/movement is conditional, but helpful when the condition arises.  Since passive Crit doesn't scale multplicatively and has a hard cap, this would be seen as less valuable than 1% Haste.  It is just a bonus Crit %, but it's not really much of anything. 

 

5% extra Mana isn't going to do anything for you because your spells don't do anything different based on the amount of mana you have.  Coincidentally, you're not going to Life Tap one less time on every fight because you have 5% more mana.  This might need looked into, but spells costs are based off of base mana, and I'm unsure if "base" mana is higher for Gnomes.  Either way, 5% extra mana isn't going to be worth much of anything measureable in terms of DPS.

 

There's a reason why everyone's going Horde!  IMO, allow Pandaren to be Warlocks and this argument goes away.  WTB bonus 300 Int

[Kazistrasz 216]

Being 10-man doesn't and shouldn't rule out getting MHOH combination, especially since you're going to want to go MHOH in 5.4 with that being the only way to reduce how much crit is on our weapon (all staves have crit).

 

That said, humans with swords get the equivalent of 340 hit rating plus the ability to get themselves out of CC (which can be very useful).

 

Gnomes with any 1H but a wand (wands suck anyway) get the equivalent of 340 hit rating, 5% extra mana (15k mana really doesn't amount to much of anything, that's like, what, one spell?), and the ability to free themselves from roots/snares. 

 

Worgen get the equivalent of 600 crit. and Darkflight.

 

Personally, I think worgen locks are highly overrated. Darkflight is nice, yes, but we have so many movement abilities in Gateway, Circle, Demonic Leap, and Burning Rush, that I feel it's not a very big deal. We passively absorb (and will passively heal in 5.4) enough to make up for having to use Burning Rush for a second. Any mechanic that requires more than a short two seconds or so of movement, i.e. a mechanic where you can actually take advantage of Darkflight, is generally the sort of mechanic we can plan on using Gateway to bypass. The 600 crit is kind of worthless to us since crit is such an undesirable stat.

 

The human racial trinket is nice, but not really make-or-break since there's hardly ever a time when the CC-breaking will get make the difference. If you're using a sword, I think the 340 hit is rather valuable, since having to put that much less into hit means that much more desirable stats like haste and mastery for us.

 

Truly, though, I think gnome is the best choice for alliance. When you're using MHOH, you're pretty much always going to have a sword or dagger, because wands suck. It's more reliable to get. The 15k extra mana isn't a big deal (it's only one spell), but it is still a thing. I think the gnome racial is incredibly useful, as most of the abilities that you can really be saved from are things that will snare or root you in them, etc. From a numbers game, I think gnome wins. From a utility of racials game, I think it's gnome, but less clearly.

[Lockybalboa 618]

Being 10-man doesn't and shouldn't rule out getting MHOH combination, especially since you're going to want to go MHOH in 5.4 with that being the only way to reduce how much crit is on our weapon (all staves have crit).

 

I raid with a mage, a Spriest, a ele sham, and me as warlock. The odds of getting a MHOH HWF combo is really, really, REALLY low. Not worth my time and effort in trying to fight the others for it, rather make my life easier by just using a HWF staff as my BiS.

 

 

 

Other than that ya, all of these things are points that I knew. I was just hoping somebody had gone super nerd and did all the math for me so I can sound smarter. 

 

Being that the only real change is cosmetic Im not sure if I'll change, was just an idea wanted to look into. Thanks for the replys, confirming information is always helpful.

[Zagam 1,982]

When I was Alliance, my Warlock, for a very brief time, was a Gnome with a pink mohawk.  Most of the rest of the time, he was a Human with a short side stint as a Worgen.  I found Gnomes to be the most tolerable aesthetically.  Nothing tops the Worgen for world best annoying toon to stand in an AH with.  Human dances are SO awful...

 

This thread makes me appreciate my Orcs, Trolls, Taurens, Goblins, Blood Elves, and Forsaken. 

[Khaos 5]

Orcs <3

[Kazistrasz 216]

I raid with a mage, a Spriest, a ele sham, and me as warlock. The odds of getting a MHOH HWF combo is really, really, REALLY low. Not worth my time and effort in trying to fight the others for it, rather make my life easier by just using a HWF staff as my BiS.

 

 

 

Other than that ya, all of these things are points that I knew. I was just hoping somebody had gone super nerd and did all the math for me so I can sound smarter. 

 

Being that the only real change is cosmetic Im not sure if I'll change, was just an idea wanted to look into. Thanks for the replys, confirming information is always helpful.

 

No, but we want haste more than mages. Mages really like their crit. IMO they're better off getting a staff than you are since staff stats are actually good for them. Spriests have significantly more options than you do for their gear, since they can use the same stuff as disc/holy priests. Ele shammies will ant a shield and a main-hand, but they're generally going to want a mace/axe and can't even use swords (can they use daggers?). Your competition is now significantly less than you anticipated if whoever is in charge of your loot system has a brain.

[Lockybalboa 618]

In the 24 weeks I've been clearing TOT I've seen 3 MH (two H) and 2 OH (1 H) drop. Of these one OH was RTF and one of the MH was HTF. Of these only 1 MH was NOT spi and both OH were non-spirit.

 

We've seen two HTF staffs drop and two H staffs, I don't remember the reg drops. 

 

Coins we've gotten one HTF OH and that was won by the mage that already had an H OH.

 

Our mage is going more haste/mastery, at his gear level crit is nice but he isn't looking to max out.

 

Spriest CAN get Spi gear but his Spi weapons is shared among the boomchicken and Disc priest and to some extent the ele sham also.

 

I don't really need any more haste than I already have, mostly looking to maintain the haste I have and get as much mastery as possible. Easiest way to do this is to gear mastery/haste and gem the in between. 

 

Moreover, I don't really care about BiS that much. I won't be finishing progression in BiS, I'll be finishing it in the best of what has dropped. Once we have 14/14HM on farm, I might try to get a MHOH but probably not. At that point we're looking at next Xpack and I couldn't give a damn about what my gear is going to be going in to that.

 

The stats between MHOH and staff are close enough that I'd still rather have an H or HWF staff over waiting and wishing for a MHOH.

[Errinkel 9]

Go gnome or go home, I always say. Of course I am not a competitive playing warlock, but the ability to get out of snares does come in handy more often than you'd think.

[Zagam 1,982]

Which Humans can do just the same...

[Strife 6]

Being 10-man doesn't and shouldn't rule out getting MHOH combination, especially since you're going to want to go MHOH in 5.4 with that being the only way to reduce how much crit is on our weapon (all staves have crit).

 

For 5.4 do we know that crit is still going to be the worst though? This is from a demo standpoint since that's what I play a majority of the time.

 

I thought that the theories floating around with the nerf to RPPM, nerf to Imp Swarm, no more UVLS, and taking something like the new AV and using more ToC and the new buffed Fel Flame during movement may push crit up above haste other than trying to hit breakpoints now? I mean more crit dooms, scaling with insta-cast spells, and the fact that haste isn't going to help RPPM or things like Imp Swarm (since I hear it's not worth taking the glyph now?) anymore.

 

Possibly going to be haste to breakpoint then Mastery > Crit > Haste in 5.4?

Edited September 5, 2013 by Strife

[Kazistrasz 216]

Which Humans can do just the same...

 

Gnomes can do it more often, just without the option for CC breaking. The're also more reliable for getting the 1% hit.

[Zagam 1,982]

For 5.4 do we know that crit is still going to be the worst though? This is from a demo standpoint since that's what I play a majority of the time.

 

I thought that the theories floating around with the nerf to RPPM, nerf to Imp Swarm, no more UVLS, and taking something like the new AV and using more ToC and the new buffed Fel Flame during movement may push crit up above haste other than trying to hit breakpoints now? I mean more crit dooms, scaling with insta-cast spells, and the fact that haste isn't going to help RPPM or things like Imp Swarm (since I hear it's not worth taking the glyph now?) anymore.

 

Possibly going to be haste to breakpoint then Mastery > Crit > Haste in 5.4?

I know people like to think things will change, but you can't look at it as trying to make up for losing UVLS by stacking Crit.  Think about what Crit does for Demonology.  It doubles damage of spells on an RNG factor, boosts Soul Fire damage, and gives your Doom a chance to proc an Imp on an RNG factor.  We don't have anything like Fire Mage's Critical Mass that enables us to get to high Crit chance.  Not only that, you can't think about what you're GAINING with Crit without thinking about what you're LOSING by shoving stats into Crit.  Remember, Crit is expensive.  1% Crit = 600 rating, 1% Mastery = 600 (3% in Meta), and 1% Haste = 425 rating. 

 

Even if you shove all your stats into Crit JUST for your higher Imp procs, they will do less damage because you gave up Mastery to gain an Imp.  Giving up that Mastery also cuts your total damage, pet damage, and Meta damage threefold.  AND there's a high chance your increased Crit chance won't even give you more Imps!  You're giving up reliable, constant damage for some RNG that might even still lower your damage.

 

Soul Fire gets boosted by your Crit chance, but it gets buffed by Mastery on a better conversion, so that point is out.

 

Crit is shit.  There is no way around it.  It's easy to say 'more Crit = more Imps' but it's often overlooked on what you give up by going that route.  If you have 50 Doom ticks and a 25% Crit chance, it's reasonable to say you'll get 10-15 Imps.  Raising your Crit to 35% would cost you 6000 Haste or Mastery and give you a more likely Imp range of 17-20 Imps, but remember, those 5 extra Imps (and all the other Imps) will be doing significantly less damage because you lost Mastery.

 

Haste to breakpoint > Mastery > Haste >>> Crit

[Soulzar 42]

I would really have to say that Worgen is the real only PVE advantage racial going right now for ally.  At this stage of the Expac majority of people who do not have the opportunity (or rng) to pickup the BIS items to perfectly balance hit,  generally hit a point where they are above cap with no way to drop more hit.  

 

This tier numerous times I got to the point where I was ignoring 60 int socket bonuses for blue sockets and using flat mastery gems since it was marginally better than taking the socket bonus and using a stam/mastery gem since i was capped with no other way to lower my hit.  this virtually nullifies any gains from the hit racial.

 

Crit is shit, but its better than excess hit, and any movement increase has always been a minor dps increase, and stacks with burning rush allowing us to run faster than Kenyans.

 

Early expac, the hit racial can be very strong.  but with Blizz putting stupid items like Staves and Trinkets that have over 1200 hit on them, getting enough hit at times can be easier than not having too much hit.

 

1% crit vs 20% haste snapshot.... not even in the same ball park....

Edited September 5, 2013 by Soulzar

[Lockybalboa 618]

I would really have to say that Worgen is the real only PVE advantage racial going right now for ally.  At this stage of the Expac majority of people who do not have the opportunity (or rng) to pickup the BIS items to perfectly balance hit,  generally hit a point where they are above cap with no way to drop more hit.  

 

This tier numerous times I got to the point where I was ignoring 60 int socket bonuses for blue sockets and using flat mastery gems since it was marginally better than taking the socket bonus and using a stam/mastery gem since i was capped with no other way to lower my hit.  this virtually nullifies any gains from the hit racial.

 

Crit is shit, but its better than excess hit, and any movement increase has always been a minor dps increase, and stacks with burning rush allowing us to run faster than Kenyans.

 

Early expac, the hit racial can be very strong.  but with Blizz putting stupid items like Staves and Trinkets that have over 1200 hit on them, getting enough hit at times can be easier than not having too much hit.

 

1% crit vs 20% haste snapshot.... not even in the same ball park....

 

With reforging I've never heard of someone having that much of an issue with hit as a caster.

 

I raid top 40 US, I've never had the issue of having too much hit. I sit around 15.01-15.20% hit in every iteration of gearing I've had since 469 ilvl.

 

Crit being so useless it just doesn't matter to me. The dark flight was nice to have but in the end wasn't that huge of a loss because I already have so many other movement skills. On top of that I'm an eng so rocket boosts.

 

Race changed to gnome, love it. The look is much better than worgen and the pvp half trinket is real handy. Friends want to push 2300 next tier so it might help out a little. Probably not, but it might.

[Strife 6]

I know people like to think things will change, but you can't look at it as trying to make up for losing UVLS by stacking Crit.  Think about what Crit does for Demonology.  It doubles damage of spells on an RNG factor, boosts Soul Fire damage, and gives your Doom a chance to proc an Imp on an RNG factor.  We don't have anything like Fire Mage's Critical Mass that enables us to get to high Crit chance.  Not only that, you can't think about what you're GAINING with Crit without thinking about what you're LOSING by shoving stats into Crit.  Remember, Crit is expensive.  1% Crit = 600 rating, 1% Mastery = 600 (3% in Meta), and 1% Haste = 425 rating. 

 

Even if you shove all your stats into Crit JUST for your higher Imp procs, they will do less damage because you gave up Mastery to gain an Imp.  Giving up that Mastery also cuts your total damage, pet damage, and Meta damage threefold.  AND there's a high chance your increased Crit chance won't even give you more Imps!  You're giving up reliable, constant damage for some RNG that might even still lower your damage.

 

Soul Fire gets boosted by your Crit chance, but it gets buffed by Mastery on a better conversion, so that point is out.

 

Crit is shit.  There is no way around it.  It's easy to say 'more Crit = more Imps' but it's often overlooked on what you give up by going that route.  If you have 50 Doom ticks and a 25% Crit chance, it's reasonable to say you'll get 10-15 Imps.  Raising your Crit to 35% would cost you 6000 Haste or Mastery and give you a more likely Imp range of 17-20 Imps, but remember, those 5 extra Imps (and all the other Imps) will be doing significantly less damage because you lost Mastery.

 

Haste to breakpoint > Mastery > Haste >>> Crit

 

Yea I would never think about taking Crit over Mastery, hence my Haste to BP > Mastery > Crit > Haste progression in my original post.

 

Obviously that would be dumb, it was more about Crit > Haste vs Haste > Crit

 

But thinking about it, it would probably be easy to just reforge everything into mastery anyways after your BP, whether you went for mastery/haste or mastery/hit. So I guess even if you went for mastery/haste as primary stats on gear in 5.4 you could still reforge out of enough haste to hit your bp and maximize mastery...

Edited September 6, 2013 by Strife

[Zagam 1,982]

Yeah...all this hyperanalyzing is fun, but most people are putting ALL their efforts into stat weights and priorities when people should be focusing on their logs and finding ways to improve.  I faced this all tier long.."How do I make my DPS better?  I reforged like you said!  I must need more Haste..."  Then I find their logs and they're not using Havoc or their Haunt uptime is 40% or they had Unerring Vision equipped but only had 22% of their Dooms crit.  I think I laid the claim out a while ago that I could reforge to Crit and outperform most reforging Haste.  95% of people would follow my reforge thinking THAT's how I did more damage.  If I had one goal at Icy-Veins, it would be to get people to believe my 10-90 rule. 

 

10% of your DPS is your secondary stats; thus this warrants 10% of your attention

90% of your DPS is your spell priorities and knowledge of your spec; thus this warrants 90% of your attention. 

 

You really should ONLY focus on fine tweeking your secondary stats to find that extra 1-2k DPS after you have fully mastered the spec you are playing.  Even then, sometimes that extra DPS you fought for gets smushed by RNG.  Sometimes it gets enhanced by RNG. 

[Omaric 246]

I fully agree, but then we've been proliferating things like "crit is shit", which scares people into thinking that maybe they need to think about these silly secondary stats a little more.