Prot (I'm getting wrecked)

[Gevo 1]

I'm an 881 prot warrior, I enjoy my class for the most part & I do enjoy tanking. I know being 881 nothing will be a cake walk but I am getting absolutely wrecked. I did a +12 HoV with tyrannical & I couldn't make it to 20% before the first boss finally wrecked me. I gave it 5 attempts! I have the haste to keep shield block up & I save my rage to dump into ignore pain when he does his sweep. I don't get hit by any lightning, I'm not sure what's going on. It's embarrassing, also making me want to reroll... Here's my sheet.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/trollbane/Gevo/simple

I use SimC with pawn, I choose the 30% haste route with devastator. I use a swing timer via weakauras & I feel comfortable with it, but I'm noticing a lot of down time when I should be building rage, I find myself starved when I'm in need of ignore pains.. I can go 15 seconds or more it seems like without shield slam procs. Any recommendations for change would be great, I want to continue tanking but I can't seem to hold my own.

[Shells 64]

I feel your rage, was going to say pain but thats the DH mechanic. 

:)

Hopefully Prot gets some love as its in a bit of an odd place and gets slammed at times. 

[Gevo 1]

Just now, Shells said:

I feel your rage, was going to say pain but thats the DH mechanic. 

:)

Hopefully Prot gets some love as its in a bit of an odd place and gets slammed at times. 

I feel like shield block is worthless.. Espically in a magical fight. I hope they change some things soon as well.

[Sajakain 104]

Quote

Devastator, when played for survivability properly, is complicated - but the most important thing is managing Vengeance properly. If you want optimal survivability, follow the guide, or just use Indomitable, which in some circumstances (outlined above) is better anyway, and easier, particularly when recovering from mistakes.

I would recommend you reading this guide, if you haven't already. Prot Warriors are, imo, one of the best out there aside from Guardian Druids but, like any class, they have to be played properly and understood to do so. Devastator is a complicated playstyle and not for everyone.

[Shells 64]

Thats a very good point @Sajakain.

[Allseye 96]

It's quite hard to solve your problem, because there seems to be none. But i really can't explain your problem if you're really doing what you wrote. Your states are pretty good, haste/mastery/versatility stays in a reasonable ratio.  If you aren't sitting or turning your back to boss, it's impossible to help without a log.

Evtl. it's a problem of your healer, +12 HoV with 881 should not be a problem, even if its tyrannical. The first boss is annoying if you have the necrotic affixe. If that was the case, there is your answer :-).

You write you're using SimC and pawn...do you want improve your dps? I really can't recommend simulations for tanking because tanking is not about performance.

The guide Sajakain has mentioned is useful. I'm personally not a great fan of it. There have been discussions about how much swing-timer-managing will improve or not (because wasting to much time). Read it and build your own opinion :-)

 

[doublebrutal 29]

Hi Gevo

My prot warrior is Thejadedone-Saurfang US. Earlier today it was 877/880 iLvl. I decided to run some mythic plus as tank for first time, starting from 7.

By the end of it I completed a MoS 14 and was quite happy with the outcome.

I actually don't use the Haste>Mastery build at all. I use Ask Mr. Robot with Machine Learning. For me it's Versatility>>Mastery as main two stats, heavily favoring versatility. As a few people mentioned shield block does nothing for magic damage. Versatility helps with all damage.

This may be anecdotal but even on 14 MoS the first boss (who hits extremely hard with his Dark Slash) was unable to kill me.

After all that m+ I am now 881/884

Edited March 21, 2017 by doublebrutal

[Virai 0]

I know exactly what you're talking about.  I'm relatively new to tanking and have managed to gear my warrior up to 875 mostly through Mythic+.  I finally got a +10 keystone for Halls of Valor this week (my first +10 ever!) and was so disappointed when I got completely destroyed by Hymdall.  I felt bad for my healer because there was simply no way he was able to keep me up even popping every defensive/mitigation cooldown I have.  We wiped 5-6 times and just gave up, it wasn't even close.  I felt like a complete tool and have been looking internally at my own play and warrior a lot since that dungeon, so it's good to see someone is in the same boat as me and had a similar experience.  

 

I honestly can't offer much insight but I hope you can push through that barrier quite soon, I'll be doing the same!

[Virai 0]

23 hours ago, doublebrutal said:

Hi Gevo

My prot warrior is Thejadedone-Saurfang US. Earlier today it was 877/880 iLvl. I decided to run some mythic plus as tank for first time, starting from 7.

By the end of it I completed a MoS 14 and was quite happy with the outcome.

I actually don't use the Haste>Mastery build at all. I use Ask Mr. Robot with Machine Learning. For me it's Versatility>>Mastery as main two stats, heavily favoring versatility. As a few people mentioned shield block does nothing for magic damage. Versatility helps with all damage.

This may be anecdotal but even on 14 MoS the first boss (who hits extremely hard with his Dark Slash) was unable to kill me.

After all that m+ I am now 881/884

Interesting, I've been told so many times by so many people that I need more haste to do harder content.  I've been so hung-up on haste gear for the last 3 weeks!  I ran my gear through Ask Mr. Robot as well after reading our post and it had me swap most items and actually gave me an ilvl about 2 lower than I was wearing.  I'm curious how it will perform, have you compared it to a haste heavy build?  

[Wolrajh 1]

We are a group that does MM+ only, no raiding. I think we must be averaging 895 ilevel. And we generally avoid Halls of Valor entirely, because that specific dungeon is just terribly balanced - especially with Fortified. Mobs that randomly one shot DPS are soooo in our definition of a good time.

However some times ago our last and highest key for the session was a Halls of Valor 16, Sanguine/Overflowing/Tyrannical. Hymdall was clearly no joke, a freaking heavy hitter that requires good positionning and movement, yet we managed to pass it despite both tyrannical and overflowing ( our healer is a druid so it helps, I heard ). It was Hyrja that put a stop to our progression in the end.

This all made me reconsider my talent choices, too. So here are some random thoughts :

- While the guide that was provided above recommend Vengeance, I'd recommend Booming Voice myself. Alongside Anger Management, and the legendary belt ( especially if Blizz maintains the upcoming boost on that piece of gear ), Demo Shout will be available much more often, and instantly provide you with enough rage for a max Ignore Pain as well as more rage from TC and SS thanks to the artifact trait, meaning even more IP. What's more, it frees you the Revenge/IP little dance ( and Revenge isn't that great against single target anyway, so during boss fights I try to use it only to dump rage ).

- Consider going back to Indomitable just for HoV. Hymdall and Hyrja are damn brutal. Hyrja's Shield Blast is probably even more brutal than Ymiron's Dark Slash since we can at least completely negate this one with Spell Reflect. Anyway while Devastator is overall a better choice, maybe you need that extra 25% on health and IP's effectiveness... Stick to Booming Voice for extra rage generation !

- Be sure your DPS are good enough. I mean, sometimes, you end up lamenting you aren't good enough as a tank, but fights can only last as long as your healer's mana or your own defensive CD availability. If the DPS are underperforming, the fight will drag on, and you rarely win by attrition in WoW. MM+ requires fast killing anyway because of the timer. Obviously I'm no telling you "blame the DPS already!", but maybe, just maybe, it's not you :) Same for the healer, especially outside of Necrotic and Overflowing.

- My best advice would be to forget about HoV entirely. It's just too long, too stupid, too badly balanced. Build some other keys and hope you get some Maw of Souls. MM+ are overall fun but there is quite a list of issues with how Blizzard designed the whole thing, and HoV is one of the most glaring example. If you just want to progress and get the highest possible key ( and loot ), skip HoV. If you just want some challenge and don't care too much about progression, or have access to raiding gear or something, then by all means, insist ! You will eventually be able to pass it.

edit : oh, and I went the haste route too. My legendaries aren't even that good ( using Archimonde's Hatred reborn and Walls Fell, Sephuz and Aggramar in the bags, thinking about changing the setup though ).

Edited March 22, 2017 by Wolrajh

[Allseye 96]

I don't know why there are still people outside who really use simulations for gearing as a prot. Where is your critical thinking? It's the same thing with people who stick on that imaginary 30% haste cap because it's written in a guide. A guide which is written for new tanks to place them in a appropriate position.

DON'T use sim-results to equip your loved tank. Learn what stat is good in which situation and you will see that you have to carry around different armor-sets. And please please please, don't stick on that 30% haste cap. You have barely a situation where you need 100% shield-block uptime. And even if you feel you need high uptime, with devestator and HR you'll have a very high uptime of shield-block without sitting on 30% haste.

1 hour ago, Wolrajh said:

- While the guide that was provided above recommend Vengeance, I'd recommend Booming Voice myself. Alongside Anger Management, and the legendary belt ( especially if Blizz maintains the upcoming boost on that piece of gear ), Demo Shout will be available much more often, and instantly provide you with enough rage for a max Ignore Pain as well as more rage from TC and SS thanks to the artifact trait, meaning even more IP. What's more, it frees you the Revenge/IP little dance ( and Revenge isn't that great against single target anyway, so during boss fights I try to use it only to dump rage ).

- Consider going back to Indomitable just for HoV. Hymdall and Hyrja are damn brutal. Hyrja's Shield Blast is probably even more brutal than Ymiron's Dark Slash since we can at least completely negate this one with Spell Reflect. Anyway while Devastator is overall a better choice, maybe you need that extra 25% on health and IP's effectiveness... Stick to Booming Voice for extra rage generation !

- Be sure your DPS are good enough. I mean, sometimes, you end up lamenting you aren't good enough as a tank, but fights can only last as long as your healer's mana or your own defensive CD availability. If the DPS are underperforming, the fight will drag on, and you rarely win by attrition in WoW. MM+ requires fast killing anyway because of the timer. Obviously I'm no telling you "blame the DPS already!", but maybe, just maybe, it's not you :) Same for the healer, especially outside of Necrotic and Overflowing.

- My best advice would be to forget about HoV entirely. It's just too long, too stupid, too badly balanced. Build some other keys and hope you get some Maw of Souls. MM+ are overall fun but there is quite a list of issues with how Blizzard designed the whole thing, and HoV is one of the most glaring example. If you just want to progress and get the highest possible key ( and loot ), skip HoV. If you just want some challenge and don't care too much about progression, or have access to raiding gear or something, then by all means, insist ! You will eventually be able to pass it.

edit : oh, and I went the haste route too. My legendaries aren't even that good ( using Archimonde's Hatred reborn and Walls Fell, Sephuz and Aggramar in the bags, thinking about changing the setup though ).

The guide above is written in case of survivability. That's what i mean: don't just read a guide and think "oh cool, thats the solution for everything". Wolrajh did the right thing: don't just believe, try to change skills depending on situation. M+ and raids a two different situations. In M+, DPS >>> all and learning how to reduce inc. dmg with positioning and a clever playstile (kick the f*** shit =)). As prot, i would never ever go for indom for M+. I'm also using max. dps build with BV and AM (yeah i got the gloves + belt). I haven't ever quit a M+ because something was to hard or dmg income was to high. If i didn't manage to do it in time, it was a dps- , onehit-or just a bad-playstile-issue (yeah, i'm absolutely not perfect).

[Virai 0]

Thanks for your insight Allseye. I'd love to learn to use devastator more effectively, but I'm afraid that my 3M health pool is just too small and doesn't give me a lot of room for error.  I'm not the best player and still learning, so even small mistakes in rotation with devastator put a lot of pressure on the healer.  I get that it's just practice to learn how to play properly with it, but should I wait until my health pool is larger than 3M?

Edited March 22, 2017 by Virai

[Wolrajh 1]

3M seems quite low indeed, but I may be forgetting how things were back when I was +/- 875 ilvl. For comparison sake, I stand at 4.4-4.6M ( devastator specced ) and sometimes, it feels a bit low too ! Bad RNG, no revenge/SS procs, etc, make me feel in a bad place when I know that a hard hit is incoming and all I can really do is hope I'll have those 60 rage in time for a max IP. All in one, it depends on how strong your IP are and how competent your healer is. I'm quite sure back when we were all averaging 875 ilvl gear, we weren't beating MM+ 10 either !

If you are doing MM+ with people who raid and have access to the top gear ( mainly, set pieces ), you can be carried a bit but eventually you will hit a wall determined by your own gear, especially as the tank. Don't give up, but maybe don't place your hopes too high. I think Blizzard correctly set the virtual limit for MM+ ( via available gear ) to 15, as, as dedicated MM+ runners, we are only able to beat 16 but not with the timer. Every group that we see higher on the leaderboards have either optimal legendaries ( mainly gauntlets and bracers ), 4 set pieces, or ideally both. That's not to say that 100% MM+ geared groups can't do better, though ( we aren't very good really ) ! So yeah, just be patient, you will eventually have access to better gear and will soon start beating higher mythic tiers :) There IS a huge jump in difficulty with the addition of Fortified and Tyrannical after all. Expect to die !

And as Allseye pointed out, it's all a matter of finding you own playstyle and being able to adjust on the fly. Or, in the case of MM+, beforehand since you can't change talents during the run. He also mentionned the swing timer management for Devastator : I must confess I don't care at all myself, it's just another bother. About haste : while this is a very useful stats mainly because of Devastator ( more swings! yay ! ) it's not that useful indeed to try and reach 30%, not at the cost of higher ilvl equipement ( more armor, strength, stam ). 

Oh, and about that :

On 20/03/2017 at 5:15 PM, Gevo said:

I feel like shield block is worthless.. Espically in a magical fight. I hope they change some things soon as well.

They are adding a new weapon trait that will be improving Spell Reflect by an additionnal 20% magical damage reduction. This should put it to 50% reduction, which is quite nice. ( fun fact, previously , that trait was adding 5sec of duration to SR, and even before that, it was increasing the damage of free Revenges by 50%. I think the very first iteration increased all Revenges damage by 50%. ) Mind me, I'd have taken the free boost to Revenge any time of the day, but more magical damage reduction is satisfying too.

[Allseye 96]

2 hours ago, Virai said:

I get that it's just practice to learn how to play properly with it, but should I wait until my health pool is larger than 3M?

3M life seems to be a bit low for ilvl 875, is this really the case? But even when...just try it with devestator. Begin with a lower key and see if it works for you. Don't be afraid, you will generate more rage even without paying attention to a swing timer. Just ensure that you use SS immediately if it procs or cd is off. Try not to use thunderclap and revenge while CD from SS is <1s (if you go max dps in trash packs you can ignore that).

1 hour ago, Wolrajh said:

About haste : while this is a very useful stats mainly because of Devastator ( more swings! yay ! ) it's not that useful indeed to try and reach 30%, not at the cost of higher ilvl equipement ( more armor, strength, stam ). 

Thats true, more haste leads to more SS and to more rage. But in case of survivability, ist not essential. If you find yourself tanking, you get rage per damage taken. If someone is argueing high haste is good because of more rage, i think its negligible.

[Virai 0]

10 hours ago, Allseye said:

3M life seems to be a bit low for ilvl 875, is this really the case? But even when...just try it with devestator. Begin with a lower key and see if it works for you. Don't be afraid, you will generate more rage even without paying attention to a swing timer. Just ensure that you use SS immediately if it procs or cd is off. Try not to use thunderclap and revenge while CD from SS is <1s (if you go max dps in trash packs you can ignore that).

Thats true, more haste leads to more SS and to more rage. But in case of survivability, ist not essential. If you find yourself tanking, you get rage per damage taken. If someone is argueing high haste is good because of more rage, i think its negligible.

So I played quite a bit with devastator tonight and I think I'm getting the hang of it.  I added a swing timer and a vengeance helper to my weak auras and they have helped a ton.  

I have just under 3.5M health without indom, here's my armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/tichondrius/Flukefive/advanced

I know my gear is mostly garbage, but its honestly the best I've come across in my limited play-time.  I'm hoping to do 1-2 Mythic+ dungeons per night this week and get some nice upgrades.

[Allseye 96]

3.5M Lifepool is enough to do at least +9. Use a stamina flask if you need more life. If you have some good DPS and they aren't failing in mechanics, your healer have even more time to spend a bit more love for you and you can go easly go higher.

Just a word to your equipment: Try to get the set-head and replace your chest with haste/mastery. Generally, i would recommend to focus haste between 20-25% and keep crit as low as possible. Sacrifice about 5 ilvl if you can replace a crit item. If other item has a socket, you can sacrifice about 10ilvl. Then: you're running with the legendary bracers - even more a reason why you should run with devestator =)

Enchant haste on your gear and not versatility, also use haste-food. Versatility scales not as good as haste or mastery does. You can enchant versatility if you plan to own a pure versatility gear.

[Gevo 1]

Thanks for all the replies! I've put away Simc, it's not working how I thought it would. Even when I reached 30% haste, I re simmed and it is still telling me to take lower iLvL's with haste over a higher iLvL with mastery/vers. I said "this is stupid, I'll figure it out myself". So, anyways.. Someone above had stated maybe my encounter with Hymdal was too long; it was... I really wanted to think I was geared & leet enough to withstand the long encounter, we we're dying at the 3 1/2 - 4 minute mark. By that time I was out of CD's, DPS was getting wrecked & sometimes dying so the healer was just as focused on them as he was me.. But had the nerve to ask "do you even use CD's?). Oh well, I started using a swing timer, learned my fights a bit better & I'm noticing a big change. I still get hit hard sometimes, but I am managing better!

 

I'd love to do a brute tank spec and just go vers/mastery with indom, but I'll have to build a set first. 

[Allseye 96]

Good to hear that it is getting better.

In my experience, it is mostly a dps or movement problem than a tanking or healing problem. In some dungeons bossmobs or even normal trash can easely one/two-hit a player, depending on affixes. So its a question how fast they will die. In these cases, DPS of a tank matters and you will never run with indom.

In my view, indom is just usefull in longer fights where you have to soak big hits. So Odyn in ToV is a very good example where i prefered to run with indom instead of devestator.