7.2.5 Wild Call changes

[Yuden 3]

Hello fellow huntsman,

Created this topic to gather some info about how you guys think the recently announced changes on the Wild Call mechanic will impact on our gameplay.

Thanks in advance

Blizzard (Source)

In 7.2.5, we are changing Wild Call from a cooldown reset mechanic to a cooldown reduction mechanic.

The base proc chance will be doubled and the cooldown reduction per proc will be 3.0 sec (affected by haste), roughly half the average expected value of current live Wild Call procs. Baseline, the amount of total Dire Beast casts and Dire Beast uptime should be roughly the same as on live, except the changes should result in smoother Focus regeneration from more well-paced Dire Beast casts.

Additionally, these changes have the desired side effect of bringing the power level of The Mantle of Command more in line with other legendaries.

How is this going to affect One with the Pack? If the proc chance is doubled, then One with the Pack seems to be getting we

One with the Pack's proc chance increase to Wild Call will also be doubled. With the talent, Wild Call will have 100% chance to proc.

[Luthixx 138]

To be honest that sounds like it's a much better system, especially if they're upping the proc rate of wild call. 

As someone without the shoulders, with those changes I think it might lower my burst but keep my dps more consistent since it seems like I'd essentially have 100% uptime on at least one stack of Dire Frenzy. Plus, that's kind of nice to go along with the T20 set bonuses (at this stage) that seem more about making the most out of your BW when it's up as opposed to getting as much BW uptime as possible. 

Definitely think shoulders will lose any attractiveness over belt/bracers combo after the patch. Seems like the plan is to make BM a lot less bursty and more consistent with the dps.

I think as far as overall gameplay nothing much will change, maybe when TOS hits then blink strikes will be back to better damage since you'd be benefitting from it and the uptime on Dire Frenzy a lot more, as opposed to getting more from the 15% extra damage from Bestial Wrath. Although, I do suppose that Blink Strikes only accounts for a small section of our dps and if you had the belt and bracers combo where you were getting a lot out of your cooldown phases then maybe you'd want them to be hitting even harder. 

Have blizzard released a timeline for 7.2.5? Seems awfully soon after 7.2 just hit. 

[Ashmane 0]

51 minutes ago, Luthixx said:

To be honest that sounds like it's a much better system, especially if they're upping the proc rate of wild call. 

As someone without the shoulders, with those changes I think it might lower my burst but keep my dps more consistent since it seems like I'd essentially have 100% uptime on at least one stack of Dire Frenzy. Plus, that's kind of nice to go along with the T20 set bonuses (at this stage) that seem more about making the most out of your BW when it's up as opposed to getting as much BW uptime as possible. 

Definitely think shoulders will lose any attractiveness over belt/bracers combo after the patch. Seems like the plan is to make BM a lot less bursty and more consistent with the dps.

I think as far as overall gameplay nothing much will change, maybe when TOS hits then blink strikes will be back to better damage since you'd be benefitting from it and the uptime on Dire Frenzy a lot more, as opposed to getting more from the 15% extra damage from Bestial Wrath. Although, I do suppose that Blink Strikes only accounts for a small section of our dps and if you had the belt and bracers combo where you were getting a lot out of your cooldown phases then maybe you'd want them to be hitting even harder. 

Have blizzard released a timeline for 7.2.5? Seems awfully soon after 7.2 just hit. 

your vision makes me afraid, as I only got shoulders and boots. As the boots arent that good with the new traits, the shoulder nerf would hit me very hard ? hope to get more bm dps leggies soon.

[Najjic 10]

This is a relly good change in my opinion. As someone who plays shoulds + boots i will probably get my dps reduced with about 50k but tbh that doesn't really matter as this changes reduces the need for shoulder legy as bm. 

 

However if i'm being honest they should just remove the legy shoulders entirely and just add 2 charges as baseline for bm but ah well. Atleast they are making a change.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Najjic

[Luthixx 138]

To be honest I don't even care that much to have two charges as baseline, and I think shoulders will still be good but they won't be a necessity anymore. 

Im more than happy to have the cooldown reduction as a proc, because I enjoy the way Dire Frenzy works now, I just wish it was more than 3 seconds base (although with higher haste it would be interesting what it can get up to, especially since haste lowers the cooldown from 12 secs to under 10.

I think it works well for TOS, especially since the current tier 20 set bonuses mostly apply to Kill Command and cobra shot and it's more about getting the most out of your BW than it is about getting BW up again as soon as it's over. 

I can foresee high haste being very important to BM, especially if you can spend the entire time you have BW up utilising Killer Cobra you'd end up with some very very hard hitting abilities. 

Even now the boots and shoulder combo is outdated and the best is shoulders bracers, and is looking likely to be belt and bracers in this coming patch. 

I don't even think the change to wild call is meant to be a dps increase but it at least doesnt make us waste a charge anymore, which was always the worst part of BM.

[Najjic 10]

I think that haste will be insane for bm now. Especially with T20 set since you can burst like crazy during bw.

I agree that this isn't a dps increase but rather a pretty good solution to wild call procs being super awkward witout shoulders. It's however pretty sad that they are killing the shoulders completely and not just revorking them instead. I do however have plans to try out if with around 25-30% haste i can make shoulders + boots work the same way as they do now when 7.2.5 comes. ( Will probably make a post about this once it's live. Since if it works as well as i hope DF/DB will refresh kc completely even outside of haste cd's)

[Luthixx 138]

1 hour ago, Najjic said:

 It's however pretty sad that they are killing the shoulders completely and not just revorking them instead.

The whole point isn't to kill the shoulders but to make them equal with some of the other legendaries. If you use One With the Pack you have almost 100% proc chance to get the cooldown reduction, so you'll still get a lot more uptime on BW. But it'll mean more consistent and less bursty dps, much like it is now. 

[Dvanom 34]

13 minutes ago, Luthixx said:

The whole point isn't to kill the shoulders but to make them equal with some of the other legendaries. If you use One With the Pack you have almost 100% proc chance to get the cooldown reduction, so you'll still get a lot more uptime on BW. But it'll mean more consistent and less bursty dps, much like it is now. 

Yup, and thats how it should be always, for all classes. They shouldn't  make one legendary mandatory. I like the change too :)

[Najjic 10]

1 hour ago, Luthixx said:

The whole point isn't to kill the shoulders but to make them equal with some of the other legendaries. If you use One With the Pack you have almost 100% proc chance to get the cooldown reduction, so you'll still get a lot more uptime on BW. But it'll mean more consistent and less bursty dps, much like it is now. 

 

Well basicly this makes it so that the extra charge is useless  since procs only reset half the cd of DF so shoulders will just not be neccesary. But i am all for the change aswell just think that this makes the shoulders pretty much unusable from a dps perspective, unless you have the haste at like 30%+ to completely counter the nerf to the proc. 

 

but as i said this is a really good change.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Najjic

[Luthixx 138]

9 hours ago, Najjic said:

Well basicly this makes it so that the extra charge is useless  since procs only reset half the cd of DF so shoulders will just not be neccesary. But i am all for the change aswell just think that this makes the shoulders pretty much unusable from a dps perspective, unless you have the haste at like 30%+ to completely counter the nerf to the proc. 

Not necessarily, with 100% proc chance on Wild Call using One With the Pack, every single auto-shot critical strike would reduce the cooldown by 3 sec (plus haste). Now, with that in mind we don't know how much cooldown reduction it would give us; if you have over 10-15% haste your cooldown is generally below 10 seconds down from 12, so this could end up being a cooldown reduction up to 4 or so seconds. From there you can see you'd still be getting frequent resets, but the whole gameplay idea would be that even with shoulders there's more certainty to when you can use them, and you'll never waste a proc, since with shoulders any additional reset would just start to recharge your 2nd dire beast.

I personally think this is the best change they've made in a long time, and I never wanted 2 charges of dire beast to be baseline, probably because I played a destruction warlock for so long that I hated how conflag was a 2 charge ability. At least this way we have a lot more certainty as to when dire beast becomes a part of our rotation, and having weakauras that tell us when the cooldown is fully reset is even more beneficial. This takes the shoulders out from being a major necessity to just a nice quality of life type legendary; it's still a dps gain because instead of having 0.00001 sec left on your cooldown and it taking that off and you still get nothing out of it the way it is now, you'll still get that put towards a second recharge.

The whole idea is to make BM a competitive spec without having those shoulders as a necessity; prior to 7.2 BM was a garbage spec without shoulders, and now the top legendaries are mostly equal. For example, I've been raiding all expac as BM, never got shoulders; recently got bracers & CoF, I can now outdps every other hunter I see in any situation, and I'm back to beating everyone in my guild on single target.

[Contemn 0]

Hello everyone!

I have the shoulders on my Hunter, Lucky me, and I must say the two charge system should be baseline! Much less restricted gameplay and so much more smooth to play. -- So I think shoulders need a total rework with this change to Wild procs, like making it improve kill command (name fits then).

With that said, I'd like to remind people on this topic that blue post mentions haste -affects- base CD reduction. Which means more haste equals in -less- CD reduction. Not more! So essentially it will always be below 3 second per proc. What am I saying? -- Crit will get better for reducing total CD of DB? Maybe. More data required to confirm. But I like the idea of that.

[Najjic 10]

9 hours ago, Contemn said:

Which means more haste equals in -less- CD reduction. Not more!

That would be really dumb if it was true :D. Punishing people for having haste ?

 

This is incorrect. And this change does the opposite of increasing the need for crit, It makes haste op again even (especially) for ppl with shoulders. Which in my opinion is a good change since it doesn't force seperate builds. However i think this will have to be tested and experimented with when the patch hits. ( for example i'm very keen on trying out 30% haste build with shoulders and boots :). Will hopefully result in an new interesting way to play bm).

Edited April 8, 2017 by Najjic

[Luthixx 138]

11 hours ago, Contemn said:

Hello everyone!

I have the shoulders on my Hunter, Lucky me, and I must say the two charge system should be baseline! Much less restricted gameplay and so much more smooth to play. -- So I think shoulders need a total rework with this change to Wild procs, like making it improve kill command (name fits then).

With that said, I'd like to remind people on this topic that blue post mentions haste -affects- base CD reduction. Which means more haste equals in -less- CD reduction. Not more! So essentially it will always be below 3 second per proc. What am I saying? -- Crit will get better for reducing total CD of DB? Maybe. More data required to confirm. But I like the idea of that.

I don't think you read it correctly at all; haste increases the cooldown reduction, in the same way it reduces the original cooldown of Dire Beast. It would be illogical to have it the reverse. 

Ill agree with the sentiment about two charges baseline but this is a much, much needed change to even out the way BM plays. 

However if you have shoulders crit will be almost useless, if you run OWTP you'll have 100% proc chance on crits, which means you won't be fishing for procs anymore. The whole idea for this change is to make shoulders a totally different playstyle; shoulders will run OWTP again and you'll have more frequent, but less powerful burst, whereas any other combo will be less frequent but far more powerful. 

[Contemn 0]

10 hours ago, Najjic said:

That would be really dumb if it was linkriginal Punishing people for ha;-)ving haste ?

 

This is incorrect. And this change does the opposite of increasing the need for crit, It makes haste op again even (especially) for ppl with shoulders. Which in my opinion is a good change since it doesn't force seperate builds. However i think this will have to be tested and experimented with when the patch hits. ( for example i'm very keen on trying out 30% haste build with shoulders and boots :). Will hopefully result in an new interesting way to play bm).

Why would it be dumb? It just ensures that the Wild Call proc (3seconds baseline) remains a 25% reduction of the original 12second CD of DB no matter your hastelevel. Haste causes reductions. It doesn't increase digital values directly. Blizzard don't want to create breakpoints.

I would love to come with some better more solid arguments and link you examples from other classes, but I am stuck on this Samsung S3, so it will have to wait. :-)   

[Luthixx 138]

1 hour ago, Contemn said:

Why would it be dumb? It just ensures that the Wild Call proc (3seconds baseline) remains a 25% reduction of the original 12second CD of DB no matter your hastelevel. Haste causes reductions. It doesn't increase digital values directly. Blizzard don't want to create breakpoints.

That's a fair point to make, although that would be a severe nerf to the mechanic then. Although blizz did say they wanted it to be roughly half the value but have the same uptime so it makes sense to keep it at 25% and give you double proc chance. Be interesting to see how it pans out. 

But blizzard not wanting to create breakpoints? I don't know what makes you think that but majority of classes have had breakpoints for the entire game. Crit and haste breakpoints to optimise dot uptime or dot ticks and such, been a massive part of the game for a very long time. Blizzard don't want to make breakpoints that are unachievable though, especially not at the cost of other stats and overall dps. 

[Najjic 10]

1 hour ago, Contemn said:

Why would it be dumb? It just ensures that the Wild Call proc (3seconds baseline) remains a 25% reduction of the original 12second CD of DB no matter your hastelevel. Haste causes reductions. It doesn't increase digital values directly. Blizzard don't want to create breakpoints.

 

Well having the proc always being 25% isn't dumb but i meant the fact that you claimed that haste made it less than 3 sec. ALso why would they mention haste if it did nothing for the power of the proc. ( don't quite understand what it is you are trying to say with this so sry if i'm misunderstanding something :P)

 

 

Note: didn't mean to call u dumb. :) sincerest apologies

[Banard 61]

On 07/04/2017 at 4:12 AM, Luthixx said:

 

Definitely think shoulders will lose any attractiveness over belt/bracers combo after the patch. Seems like the plan is to make BM a lot less bursty and more consistent with the dps.

 

shoulders are not as OP as they were. Wild+convergence is OP combo. I run with another Hunter and we were neck to neck a lot of the time. I got lucky on leggos and pulled ahead in EN....got shoulders and pulled ahead in NH...

but now....he is running boots/bracers/convergence and i noticed (when i was using shoulders/belt) he was pulling ahead of me significantly...i switched to shoulders/bracers/convergence and we are pretty much on par again. 

The shoulder just make the spec feel and play better at the moment. All BM should be aiming for bracers/convergance + whatever. 

(side note...got all BM leggos and moved on to MM ....got 1 of those too now...2 leggos in one weekend...up to 10 leggos on one toon)

 

That be said...i don't know how i feel about the change...in the end i feel like this is a solution to not making dire beast/dire frenzy having 2 stacks as base line. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Banard

[Khallid 110]

I don't think we will know for sure until 7.2.5 drops, but I fear Contemn may be right. Haste will likely reduce the proc effect so it's always 25%. 4 procs to get one full charge. Because fuck you says Blizzard. It sounds rather unlikely for Haste to increase the cooldown reduction, because that would be awesome, and Blizzard doesn't do awesome changes.

Which will definitely be a nerf for the legendary shoulders, but not necessarily dropping them to be a useless legendary. Since I have the shoulders I can tell you that the second charge also allows you to "wait" when Bestial Wrath is close to being off cooldown, and then use Dire Frenzy twice during Bestial Wrath, which stacks the Dire Frenzy attack speed buff much better than if you had only 1 charge. That extra charge is also excellent to tie Bestial Wraths back to back during Bloodlust's 40 second window.

In terms of stats, it would nerf both crit and haste, so mastery would come on top. No big changes there. Without using the shoulders there might not even be any significant nerf at all.

The change in proc will definitely make One With the Pack talent even worse, unless it gets modified drastically.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Khallid

[Jgloler 0]

So what am i supposed to do now? my three legendarys are the trinket,helm and apex ring. With how this change looks, it would be useful only for people without mantle good for me i guess, though even then, its a dps loss due to the fact that we now HAVE to take owtp. And it just baffles me that people have so many legendarys, yea changes are great for the people who have been gifted by RNG, but now im supposed to raid with my guild doing sub par DPS even more now? i guess ill boost a frost mage, though it just really frustrates me that i have to start, all over again when ive dedicated so much time to my hunter.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Jgloler

[Khallid 110]

Has anyone tested this change in the PTR yet?

[KratosSM 2]

On 10/4/2017 at 3:12 PM, Banard said:

shoulders are not as OP as they were. Wild+convergence is OP combo. I run with another Hunter and we were neck to neck a lot of the time. I got lucky on leggos and pulled ahead in EN....got shoulders and pulled ahead in NH...

but now....he is running boots/bracers/convergence and i noticed (when i was using shoulders/belt) he was pulling ahead of me significantly...i switched to shoulders/bracers/convergence and we are pretty much on par again. 

The shoulder just make the spec feel and play better at the moment. All BM should be aiming for bracers/convergance + whatever. 

(side note...got all BM leggos and moved on to MM ....got 1 of those too now...2 leggos in one weekend...up to 10 leggos on one toon)

 

That be said...i don't know how i feel about the change...in the end i feel like this is a solution to not making dire beast/dire frenzy having 2 stacks as base line. 

Probably u were not using properly Mantle , sorry for the harsh ! 

 

Actually Blizz giving flat all hunters the 2 dire thingy , just so they understood what all hunters was saying  , that shoulders were broken and mandatory on high level mythic progression . 

 

But yeah , nvm  me , i was the stupid hunter xD 

[Banard 61]

17 hours ago, KratosSM said:

 

 

 i was the stupid hunter xD 

glad we agree.  posting weeks afterwards...little sore i see. Something i said must of hit close to home. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Banard

[KratosSM 2]

On 1/5/2017 at 1:24 PM, Banard said:

glad we agree.  posting weeks afterwards...little sore i see. Something i said must of hit close to home. 

hehehe im glad u take my irony Vs me , but it seems i wasnt the stupid one ! Yeah i like sore so hard xD Becuas ewhen someone arrogantly state something , then i love to make him remember that he was the one who was making joke about who was actually right ! So maybe next time u cane be a bit less arrogant , and instead think that even YOU can be wong on something ! 

Enjoy ;)

[Eyeroll 5]

On 4/14/2017 at 4:26 PM, Jgloler said:

So what am i supposed to do now? my three legendarys are the trinket,helm and apex ring. With how this change looks, it would be useful only for people without mantle good for me i guess, though even then, its a dps loss due to the fact that we now HAVE to take owtp. And it just baffles me that people have so many legendarys, yea changes are great for the people who have been gifted by RNG, but now im supposed to raid with my guild doing sub par DPS even more now? i guess ill boost a frost mage, though it just really frustrates me that i have to start, all over again when ive dedicated so much time to my hunter.

What do you do?  You make sure you sim your gear to find the best combination for the fights you're going to be in.  You make sure your rotation is tight, and you know the fights really well.  Pugs care about DPS.  Guilds care about efficiency and mechanics.  If you can parse in purple and orange, then no one in their right mind in a guild is going to sit you because your DPS is less than another hunter who was more RNG blessed.    

How do I know?  Cause when I started this journey many months ago, I couldn't get out of my own way.  It was a really good day when I parsed green.  I'm now consistently parsing blue, but I know i need more work.   My rotations keep changing because of gear changes, and it takes practice to get that right, even with a rotation helper (Ovale/LunaEclipse)

My alt hunter (that was really just to get flying  on a different account) has been blessed.  He's gotten Mantle, Roar and CotW inside of a month, not to mention 4 pc and a CoF (N).  Do I parse higher?  Not really.  Maybe for ilvl.
 

[Khallid 110]

This post is now outdated and invalid. New 7.2.5 buiild gives 2 charges of Dire Beast by default and reverts the changes to the Wild Call proc.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1059836-beast-mastery-hunter-changes-in-725/

Edited May 3, 2017 by Khallid