Demo: Dump UVLS on day 1 or keep till upgrades?

[Jooju 0]

So patch day has arrived and many of us will be raiding SoO tonight! Yay!

 

I for one want to be at my best when we start the first bosses. Does anyone have any details on what to change for the best performance on week one raiding?

 

Most importantly, is it better for me to stick with UVLS for a while longer or switch to my other two ToT trinkets?

 

I also know that I need to take a serious look at Archimode's Darkness and need to dump Glyph of Imp Swarm, but I want to know what others are thinking on talents and glyphs.

[Omaric 246]

According to Gahhda it's still BiS for Demonology.

[Zagam 1,982]

Demonology, according to videos watched and my personal opinions, is a spec that shouldn't be "required" in SoO like it was on some fights in ToT such as Council and Lei Shen.  Affliction and Destruction will be a good combination to take, so feel free to drop UVLS since that trinket sucks for them and quit being a slave to a proc!

[Dyaeblca 0]

nm, found my answer in another thread

Edited September 10, 2013 by Dyaeblca

[gahhda 95]

Demonology, according to videos watched and my personal opinions, is a spec that shouldn't be "required" in SoO like it was on some fights in ToT such as Council and Lei Shen.  Affliction and Destruction will be a good combination to take, so feel free to drop UVLS since that trinket sucks for them and quit being a slave to a proc!

 

Zagam likes the prospect of playing demo without uvls, finds out it still uses it, suggests everyone plays affli/destro.

 

<3 U ZAGAM BBY

[Strife 6]

Demo was my favorite in 5.3 and I played it on everything except Primordius, after looking at the general boss strategies and lists of optimal specs it looks like I'll be switching to Destro/Aff in 5.4 :/

 

Aff seems like it's going to do really well. I just started playing WoW in 5.3 so I haven't even tried Aff yet :x

[Omaric 246]

UVLS proc'ing like a boss.

[Zagam 1,982]

Has nothing to do with UVLS on why I recommend Destruction and Affliction.  It has EVERYTHING to do with the fight mechanics I've seen.  There is a ton of 'switch to that and nuke it' type add style.  That doesn't suit Demonology as you really need ramp up time as well as timing with your Demonic Fury.  I'm not saying it shouldn't be or can't be played, but considering I was top DPS last night as Destruction on a couple of fights speaks for itself.  Affliction is really strong for multi-dotting and single target focus, but Destruction is just amazing for switching to these adds that have like 400k HP.  Who needs Rain of Fire?  Shadowburn gives you all the Embers you need.

[Omaric 246]

Has nothing to do with UVLS on why I recommend Destruction and Affliction.  It has EVERYTHING to do with the fight mechanics I've seen.  There is a ton of 'switch to that and nuke it' type add style.  That doesn't suit Demonology as you really need ramp up time as well as timing with your Demonic Fury.  I'm not saying it shouldn't be or can't be played, but considering I was top DPS last night as Destruction on a couple of fights speaks for itself.  Affliction is really strong for multi-dotting and single target focus, but Destruction is just amazing for switching to these adds that have like 400k HP.  Who needs Rain of Fire?  Shadowburn gives you all the Embers you need.

 

Since when is Demonology a ramp up DPS spec?  Assuming you're used to a fight and know what's coming, there should rarely be a time when you aren't prepared to nuke something down.  Turn to target, Meta, Soulfire spam.

 

What happened to your zest for Demonology Zags?!

[Zagam 1,982]

Not going to be able to Soul Fire spam when you get your tier as you'll be balancing monitoring your buff and wanting to hold onto charges to give yourself higher uptime on your 2pc bonus.  Sure, Demo can turn and start using Soul Fire, but you're blowing charges that'll be meaningful soon.  Using ToC is just weaker than Incinerate, Havoc + Shadowburn, etc for mobs that die quickly.  Demonology builds up with Imps, especially now that Imp Swarm is frowned upon.

 

It all goes back to strategy, assignments, and raid comp.  My raid group is VERY solid and they all switch and execute things like a monster.  That's why I wasn't able to get as many Shadowburns in on most Horridon attempts.  Same thing here...it's gotta be that burst at the right place.  Again, I'm trying to pick the two best specs to roll with so I don't constantly reforge and respec.  Destruction is doing better AoE right now than Demonology for me, and most of this is going to line up with what trinkets you get.  I gave KTT to our Ele Shaman even though it woulda been sick for me.  Gahhda got his Cleave trinket and said it added a decent amount of damage for him.  For me, my trinket preference will be Bindings and Black Blood regardless of whether or not the Multistrike or Cleave trinket is "1-2%" ahead of the others...it will come down to playstyle and quality of life.  Using Bindings makes it so I only have one RNG trinket and Black Blood will be nice because it's mostly reliable in that it'll be exactly the same as Wush but a lot better.  I wouldn't want to keep a trinket from 5.3 in 5.4 that frustrated me in 5.3 because of crappy RNG.  I also tried playing Demonology without it and it felt awful.  So...there's why I'm not playing Demonology. 

[Omaric 246]

Rofl, dammit man.  I feel like UVLS is proccing more than ever for me.  To add to that, my Doom is doing more damage without the glyph and with the bindings they're critting even harder.  Once I get used to these fights it's going to be ridiculous.  I understand your frustration though, but I just don't really like Affliction.  The only thing that makes it fun for me is if it's handing the other specs' asses to them.

 

That said, if I wanted to continue to keep my Demo spec, would you suggest keeping Affliction as my offspec or is a change to Destruction in order?  I'd like to try out Destruction again, but Affliction kicked so much ass on the 3rd boss that it's hard to discount its viability.

[Zagam 1,982]

You did Affliction on Norushen?  I played Destruction, and using Havoc on Norushen and hitting the add with Chaos Bolt created a hilarious, predicted anomoly.  Damage done to the adds duplicates to the Amalgam...when I used Havoc on the boss and hit the add with Chaos Bolt, I saw the add get hit for 650k, the boss get hit for 650k then immediately get hit for two more 650ks because of the dupe effect AND the Havoc effect.  I went in to get purified 3rd because I read a rumor that pets didn't benefit (they actually do) so next week, I'll probably go in earlier since my cleave effect is much stronger than others.

[Omaric 246]

Ummmm, yeah I'll have to try Destruction, dear lord that's intense.  The adds just seem to die so fast and I constantly regenerate all my Soul Shards from dead adds that I can permanently keep Haunt up on the boss if I actually play my cards right.  On the other hand, they die *so* fast that my DoT's don't really do their best damage even though I was apparently topping the meters.  Destruction next week for sure.

 

As for the remainder though, is there any fight from Pride and on where Affliction *absolutely* dominates?  Is Demo/Destro beast enough to finish the tier?

[Zagam 1,982]

Pride - I went Affliction.  Mostly single target and I let other raid members deal with the adds.  We never got past 50 Pride to see the Self-Reflections, so I just pummeled single target.  I'm more comfortable with Aff as single target.

 

Galakras - lots of AoE.  I think this would be Affliction's weakest spot.  You'd spend a majority of the fight Soul Swap:Inhale and Soul Swap:Exhale'ing.  I flicked on Fire and Brimstone and sustained 500k+ DPS on the AoE packs with our Ele Shaman.  Destro AoE > Demo AoE because you don't have to be close and it takes SO much less energy.  The 10% buff to Incinerate was quite massive for Destro's AoE.  Demo could sustain here...when he lands, he has like 120M to burn through...P2 doesn't last long at all.

 

Juggernaut - doesn't matter.  It's the Patchwerk of the tier.  Single target DPS fiesta.

 

Dark Shamans - All specs have their strengths.  Havoc + CB or Havoc + SB and RoF and FnB for the slimes makes Destruction sweet.  2 targets makes Demo and Aff sweet by keeping good DoTs up.  Pick a spec you're most comfortable and just watch your feet on that fight.

 

Nazgrim - doesn't matter, but Destruction is pimp with using Havoc on Nazgrim and blowing up adds.  We got to Nazgrim at 11:53 saying 'well, we got one pull before we're done.'  The trash before it was so awful...we used that as an incentive to one shot it.  It's mostly single target with some adds.  Small movement.

[Omaric 246]

Word.  I'm going to swap to Destruction from Affliction.  I've been looking for an excuse anyway.  I've only had it around to slow turtles and for Primordius ooze stomping.  Fanks!

[bangorme 0]

I guess I'm having some trouble understanding this: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10H/100/14/60/default/#0001110000000000000000000000000000 and the results most of you are getting?  What am I missing?

[Omaric 246]

That's last tier.  It hasn't been updated yet because most of the logs haven't successfully gone through World of Logs.  Is there something more specific you're trying to understand?

 

Also, I rarely ever go by the top 100 parses.  It doesn't give an accurate look at where the specs really are because you are seeing the players who have had insane luck with RNG on their trinkets or are gaining outside influence (ie. tricks of the trade).

[bangorme 0]

That's last tier.  It hasn't been updated yet because most of the logs haven't successfully gone through World of Logs.  Is there something more specific you're trying to understand?"

Ok, I understand your point about the tier now, although many had given up on demo before 5.4.  I see this as a measure of the maximum performance for each spec (which matches your luck with procs theory), but, short of cheating, I'd think that would correspond uniformly as luck decreases... unless maybe demo has a proc that is just much more powerful than the other specs.

[Zagam 1,982]

Top 100 Parses are manipulations of mechanics, fights, and giving certain people the right jobs.  They're the outliers and should NEVER be used for DPS analysis.

[Omaric 246]

Ok, I understand your point about the tier now, although many had given up on demo before 5.4.  I see this as a measure of the maximum performance for each spec (which matches your luck with procs theory), but, short of cheating, I'd think that would correspond uniformly as luck decreases... unless maybe demo has a proc that is just much more powerful than the other specs.

 

Many gave up on Demo before 5.4? o_O

 

I can see that maybe if they never saw a UVLS drop into their inventory, but with it Demo was amazing on almost every fight in 5.3.

 

As Zagam has also pointed out, top 100 parses are not reliable data because the average raid is not going to play the game for one player to see insane parses.  I generally sort by average DPS and start at the 60% range, working my way up to 90% while watching for trends and sudden increases in damage.  These increases can either be an ilvl tipping point, or where people successful in their spec really start to pull ahead due to mechanics.  All of that is very useful information to me.

[Zagam 1,982]

Demo is a good spec for 25 man because mobs have higher HP which allows Doom to tick more often and for longer periods of time.  I think for 10 man, Destro/Aff is going to be the 2 spec set up easiest to conform to.  It also allows you to keep your Haste at 9.8k and stack the bejeezus out of Mastery.

[Sagnuts 1]

Doesn't feel like they nerfed it at all. I'm getting procs within 3 seconds of every pull. So glad they didn't nerf the shit out of it.

[Soulzar 42]

My 530 UVLS is proccing more reliably on the pull than it ever has.  I am really glad, as while being so reliant on a proc can be frustrating at times, i enjoy the playstyle of having that many MC procs and fury generation.

[Muoric 3]

Good for you. my normal UVLS seemed damn unreliable yesterday. Esp without everlasting having 3 procs in a 6+ min fight isn't exactly nice. Especially when they're not on the pull and not at set intervals.

Then again the removal of everlasting is the actual problem really, not UVLS proc rate.

[Zagam 1,982]

My 530 UVLS is proccing more reliably on the pull than it ever has.  I am really glad, as while being so reliant on a proc can be frustrating at times, i enjoy the playstyle of having that many MC procs and fury generation.

So you experienced good RNG?  Let's see if everyone is experiencing that...

 

Good for you. my normal UVLS seemed damn unreliable yesterday. Esp without everlasting having 3 procs in a 6+ min fight isn't exactly nice. Especially when they're not on the pull and not at set intervals.

Then again the removal of everlasting is the actual problem really, not UVLS proc rate.

Nope.  Bad RNG strikes here.  THIS is why I got away from Demonology and UVLS.  Bad RNG can cripple you pretty badly.  I understand most of the time, you're getting a proc, but remember my little math stint explaining how you couldn't expect full coverage with UVLS-Doom when Glyph of EA existed and you had the 549 version? 

 

Basically with a 0.65 RPPM, your expected proc interval is 60/0.65 = 92 seconds.  With Pandemic, you can get to 90 seconds.  You guys are seeing procs at the start because when you pull, your timer is set to 120 seconds which is 28 seconds PAST the average expected proc interval.  I think being 120 seconds removed from a proc gives somewhere in the neighboorhood of a 5x to 6x multiplier chance of proccing.  I've seen logs where UVLS has had an interval proc of 300 seconds.  Granted, these are rare, but sometimes I had 2 or 3 of these 3 minute gaps back when I had the Glyph of EA giving me a much smaller window of time without UVLS-Doom up. 

 

There are fights that I think UVLS-Demo is going to have some kickass capabilities.  Heroic Protectors and normal/heroic Paragons come to mind with targets that are up full-time giving you small Imp factories.  The issue most of you are not seeing in your openers yet is the DF starvation in the pull.  When you give up your 2pc T15, you're losing that 30% reduced cost of DF.  Doom will go from costing 35 DF back to its original 50 DF.  Casting this twice in your opener to capture UVLS will destroy your DF pool.  You can't WAIT to use Meta because you'll miss the opportunity to push UVLS up and then you'll run out of DF and be stuck in caster form during Dark Soul waiting for Meta's CD to come up.  There's just a ton of variance and RNG along with strict monitoring in Demonology.  Be prepared to deal with and handle it.