Demo: Dump UVLS on day 1 or keep till upgrades?

[Omaric 246]

I'm averaging about 5 procs in a 5-6 minute timetable per fight.  The other warlock in my raid complained of very rarely getting procs, but after I did some digging, it turned out that their add-on wasn't properly showing the proc each time.  His WoL's showed about the same amount of procs as me, so we switched him to Weak Auras and everything is fantastic.

 

I think it may be helpful to note somewhere that Doom *does* in fact take advantage of Pandemic, as this warlock, who I think is good, was just misinformed and didn't know that.  It made me wonder how many other people don't as well.

 

But yeah, about opener DF generation and losing T15 2-piece... I think as long as I keep using Imp Swarm and my UVLS remains awesome I won't have any issues at all.  Right now I'm not even close to starved on my opener, so I don't think I'm going to be in a bad place when I lose the T15 bonus.

[Zagam 1,982]

You'll be trading off less MC procs and higher T16 2pc bonus uptime for higher burst with Imp Swarm.  Or are you going to make the change when you get two pieces of tier?

[Omaric 246]

You'll be trading off less MC procs and higher T16 2pc bonus uptime for higher burst with Imp Swarm.  Or are you going to make the change when you get two pieces of tier?

 

Well I'm currently just sitting with a 2-piece of T15.  I'm not really going to notice a dramatic decrease in MC procs due to having berserking up every other Imp Swarm.  The first Imp Swarm comes off CD stupid fast.  Realistically, using the changed glyph, I lose what? 3-4 imps a fight?  Unconcerned warlock is unconcerned. 

[Muoric 3]

So you experienced good RNG?  Let's see if everyone is experiencing that...

 

Nope.  Bad RNG strikes here.  THIS is why I got away from Demonology and UVLS.  Bad RNG can cripple you pretty badly.  I understand most of the time, you're getting a proc, but remember my little math stint explaining how you couldn't expect full coverage with UVLS-Doom when Glyph of EA existed and you had the 549 version?

Yeah, I know. Both the math and 1 pull being not being statistically anything. Just wanted to post after the previous poster to note that it's just rng. If it's good, it's as godly as before, if it's bad you're a sad panda.

[Zagam 1,982]

Yup...I prefer the consistency of Affliction, but I may redabble in Demonology seeing so many of the fights have UVLS gimmick DPS written all over them.  I actually had amazing RNG as Destruction on Malkorok and finished fight at 352k DPS...every Chaos Bolt was a 10 stack Wush.  Wush's uptime was near 83%.  It was unreal.  RNG can be a blast, but it can also be a big punch in the twig and berries.

[Desos 18]

Got Wush´s uptime  buffed by that amount?
I will stick to UVLS because all the trinkets i have are: UVLS(530), Breath(530) and Wush(510)

Maybe i will try out Bindings instead if i get lucky
 

[Soulzar 42]

So you experienced good RNG?  Let's see if everyone is experiencing that...

 

Nope.  Bad RNG strikes here.  THIS is why I got away from Demonology and UVLS.  Bad RNG can cripple you pretty badly.  I understand most of the time, you're getting a proc, but remember my little math stint explaining how you couldn't expect full coverage with UVLS-Doom when Glyph of EA existed and you had the 549 version? 

 

Basically with a 0.65 RPPM, your expected proc interval is 60/0.65 = 92 seconds.  With Pandemic, you can get to 90 seconds.  You guys are seeing procs at the start because when you pull, your timer is set to 120 seconds which is 28 seconds PAST the average expected proc interval.  I think being 120 seconds removed from a proc gives somewhere in the neighboorhood of a 5x to 6x multiplier chance of proccing.  I've seen logs where UVLS has had an interval proc of 300 seconds.  Granted, these are rare, but sometimes I had 2 or 3 of these 3 minute gaps back when I had the Glyph of EA giving me a much smaller window of time without UVLS-Doom up. 

 

There are fights that I think UVLS-Demo is going to have some kickass capabilities.  Heroic Protectors and normal/heroic Paragons come to mind with targets that are up full-time giving you small Imp factories.  The issue most of you are not seeing in your openers yet is the DF starvation in the pull.  When you give up your 2pc T15, you're losing that 30% reduced cost of DF.  Doom will go from costing 35 DF back to its original 50 DF.  Casting this twice in your opener to capture UVLS will destroy your DF pool.  You can't WAIT to use Meta because you'll miss the opportunity to push UVLS up and then you'll run out of DF and be stuck in caster form during Dark Soul waiting for Meta's CD to come up.  There's just a ton of variance and RNG along with strict monitoring in Demonology.  Be prepared to deal with and handle it.

 

Your math above shows theoretical 2 seconds of downtime on average, give or take.  The proc on pull is by far the most important, and its reliability seems more stable with the change to rppm than last tier (from my limited live in raid experience).  Even if  your downtime will be higher without EA due to the shorter snap shott, you still have your base crit rating for those ticks, which on average should be at least 20%.  I wish I had live data to support this, but on ptr self buffed I was still maintaining at least 80%-85% crit on my dooms.

 

Loss of 2pt15 is going to hurt the opener for all demo locks, not just ones running UVLS.  Is it not worth it for Non UVLS demo to pandemic the opening super buffed doom?  I assumed it would be.  Further to that, I also presumed it will become practice to precast Soulfire for the chance to proc 2 piece to further buff the super doom by 20% , which would add an additional 30 fury to your starting pool.  Within a few second you will also have the fury form you shadowflame, corruption, pet(s), and although the imp swarm glyph change makes it less desirable, it is still a valid source of fast fury generation on pull as well as a still being great for added burst if called for.  

 

Even if only used on the pull,  I do not think the few imps you may lose over the course of a fight due to 4 second longer CD will be game breaking.  Yes mathematically more more demonic calling > less demonic calling, but with the average fight length, not significantly IMO to say its 100% not viable to use.  There are so many other variable than just flat number of total imps.  Amount of fury for opening burst, 5 imps buffed with dark soul instead of one, added MC procs with your opening buffs and lust resulting in higher 2p uptime during opener.  The 3-4 imps you may be behind on can be gained back by using it in the final minute of the fight, where Demonic calling procs wont be able to out pace 4 immediate imps with the remaining duration of the fight.

 

You have mentioned more than once how important the spread out average of MC procs is going to be for 2p uptime which I agree fully with, yet seem to not offer that same value to the number of additional procs you will be getting with UVLS... 

 

Edited September 12, 2013 by Soulzar

[Zagam 1,982]

First off, Imp Swarm is down to 4 Imps, not 5, which is the reason you shouldn't take it.  It has much more to do with sustaining MC procs, Demonic Fury gains, and damage rather than splurging on 4 Imps and having Demonic Calling on CD giving you 0 Imps for a set amount of time.  The math on it is that with 5 Imps, Imp Swarm came out a little behind Demonic Calling in terms of Imps per minute, but buffing them with Dark Soul made it better.  With the change, Imp Swarm is a DPS loss overall.  There's just no way around it and any way you try to justify it is just mathematically mistaken.  It's better burst and still good for PvP, but for sustained PvE, you're costing yourself DPS by taking Imp Swarm.  Choose it if you like, but you can't argue it's usefulness.

 

Second, the implied theoretical 'downtime' of 2 seconds on UVLS procs absolutely cannot be used as a valuable measure.  That is the mean expected proc rate but I assure you...it is NOT the ACTUAL expected proc rate.  The 92 second interval is the interval you'd see if you looked at 10,000 UVLS procs.  Considering a fight of 5-10 minutes, you're expected to see 3-6 procs, but they won't be right along 92 seconds nor will they be collectively spaced out for full coverage.  As stated before and can be proven with logs, I've had intervals of procs of 3:10.  When you take UVLS, you need to depend on the procs to make it worthwhile, especially over the other trinkets.  I COMPLETELY understand RNG will allow you MOST of the time to have decent uptime.  However, what do you do when your trinket procs 3 seconds into the fight and again 15 seconds into the fight and then not again until 3 minutes into the fight?  If you're taking Imp Swarm and thinking 'my UVLS will give me all the Imps I need for MC procs,' you'd be mistaken in depending on UVLS because you could get bad RNG and have almost no Imps at all after your first 4 fade out.  Good bye, DPS. 

 

You have to look at the number of Imps you'd gain throughout the fight over a period of time.  First off, with UVLS and Doom, if you're at 10k Haste, you get 1 singular additional tick of Doom.  This means Doom ticks about once every 12 seconds, or 5 Imps per minute.  If you take Imp Swarm, that's all you're getting.  With that same amount of Haste, you're going to line up Imp Swarm with about a 90 second CD leaving only 30 seconds to proc new Imps with Demonic Calling.  If you use it on CD after that, you'll get 2 additional Imps via Demonic Calling before the new Imp Swarm.  Note that this is all based on single targets.  UVLS picks up an INCREDIBLE amount of power with the more targets you have to hit.

 

Without Imp Swarm, you'd be getting a new Imp about once every 15 seconds, or 4 per minute, for a total of 8 in a 2 minute span which is 2 more than you'd get by using Imp Swarm.  The notion that only one Imp is buffed by Dark Soul is out the window.  You'd have at least 2 Imps out during Dark Soul, sometimes 3.  Every 2 minutes, with Imp Swarm, you lose 2 Imps.  That's pretty significant considering they are your highest source of damage. 

 

The long point is its COMPLETELY UP TO YOU.  Us theorycrafters have a job to provide the numbers behind our ideas while some just say what they think.  While it's usually with good logic, we wouldn't post things on here if we didn't feel it was the best choice.  Is it going to make you unviable?  Hell no.  Someone looks for answers and we do our best to give them.  You have to understand, things are changing all the time and we do our best to stay on top of them.  I might miss a note here or there and I might be completely wrong on something, but I assure you, the things I say I really believe and can back up with the math I've already done.

[Omaric 246]

First off, Imp Swarm is down to 4 Imps, not 5, which is the reason you shouldn't take it.  It has much more to do with sustaining MC procs, Demonic Fury gains, and damage rather than splurging on 4 Imps and having Demonic Calling on CD giving you 0 Imps for a set amount of time.  The math on it is that with 5 Imps, Imp Swarm came out a little behind Demonic Calling in terms of Imps per minute, but buffing them with Dark Soul made it better.  With the change, Imp Swarm is a DPS loss overall.  There's just no way around it and any way you try to justify it is just mathematically mistaken.  It's better burst and still good for PvP, but for sustained PvE, you're costing yourself DPS by taking Imp Swarm.  Choose it if you like, but you can't argue it's usefulness.

 

Second, the implied theoretical 'downtime' of 2 seconds on UVLS procs absolutely cannot be used as a valuable measure.  That is the mean expected proc rate but I assure you...it is NOT the ACTUAL expected proc rate.  The 92 second interval is the interval you'd see if you looked at 10,000 UVLS procs.  Considering a fight of 5-10 minutes, you're expected to see 3-6 procs, but they won't be right along 92 seconds nor will they be collectively spaced out for full coverage.  As stated before and can be proven with logs, I've had intervals of procs of 3:10.  When you take UVLS, you need to depend on the procs to make it worthwhile, especially over the other trinkets.  I COMPLETELY understand RNG will allow you MOST of the time to have decent uptime.  However, what do you do when your trinket procs 3 seconds into the fight and again 15 seconds into the fight and then not again until 3 minutes into the fight?  If you're taking Imp Swarm and thinking 'my UVLS will give me all the Imps I need for MC procs,' you'd be mistaken in depending on UVLS because you could get bad RNG and have almost no Imps at all after your first 4 fade out.  Good bye, DPS. 

 

You have to look at the number of Imps you'd gain throughout the fight over a period of time.  First off, with UVLS and Doom, if you're at 10k Haste, you get 1 singular additional tick of Doom.  This means Doom ticks about once every 12 seconds, or 5 Imps per minute.  If you take Imp Swarm, that's all you're getting.  With that same amount of Haste, you're going to line up Imp Swarm with about a 90 second CD leaving only 30 seconds to proc new Imps with Demonic Calling.  If you use it on CD after that, you'll get 2 additional Imps via Demonic Calling before the new Imp Swarm.  Note that this is all based on single targets.  UVLS picks up an INCREDIBLE amount of power with the more targets you have to hit.

 

Without Imp Swarm, you'd be getting a new Imp about once every 15 seconds, or 4 per minute, for a total of 8 in a 2 minute span which is 2 more than you'd get by using Imp Swarm.  The notion that only one Imp is buffed by Dark Soul is out the window.  You'd have at least 2 Imps out during Dark Soul, sometimes 3.  Every 2 minutes, with Imp Swarm, you lose 2 Imps.  That's pretty significant considering they are your highest source of damage. 

 

The long point is its COMPLETELY UP TO YOU.  Us theorycrafters have a job to provide the numbers behind our ideas while some just say what they think.  While it's usually with good logic, we wouldn't post things on here if we didn't feel it was the best choice.  Is it going to make you unviable?  Hell no.  Someone looks for answers and we do our best to give them.  You have to understand, things are changing all the time and we do our best to stay on top of them.  I might miss a note here or there and I might be completely wrong on something, but I assure you, the things I say I really believe and can back up with the math I've already done.

 

I can argue Imp Swarm's usefulness all day.  The DF generated in the opener alone is enough to merit taking it, but again, I've got Troll Berserking and take even more advantage of getting it off CD ASAP.  Once I lose my T15 2-piece it will further help to supplement the DF needed to get off 2 Dooms and a few more spells in the opener.  Dark Soul and Bindings stay up long enough that I can hop back into Demon form and throw out more buffed Soulfires.  Any Dark Souls beyond the opener are guaranteed to let me stay in Demon form the entire time spamming Soulfires due to the increased DF gain along with my army of UVLS spawned imp babies.  Doom is critting for over 400k now, it's delicious.

 

At the start of a fight you've got 5 imps (one from Demonic Calling), buffed by all your buffs/procs. You say no swarm gives you 8 every 2 minutes and swarm gives you 6, but you're discounting our 1st imp on the opener.  I need to investigate if I can get more than 2 between Imp Swarm casts off the bat with Berserking + Lust + Meta gem.

 

I mean, I'll try out Demonology without Imp Swarm, but I don't think it's going to feel great.  I'm talking specifically single-target here.  I'm going based off my feels and attempts on Juggernaut.

 

P.S. <3

[Zagam 1,982]

You'll be delighted to know I spent my post Garrosh glow reforging and setting up for UVLS Demo again.  I'll be throwing that into the fray next week.  Just as you say, you DO get one from Demonic Calling before using Imp Swarm, but this happens without using Imp Swarm as well.  You basically get an Imp at T=0, so I was discrediting that since it happens in both scenarios.  I picked up my Tier Helm and Chest this week then got that Essence from Garrosh so I snagged the legs.  I'll be rocking double 2pc next week but as soon as I get the 4pc, I'll be putting that on.  I'm thinking whatever I liked about Destruction's AoE, I'm going to like a hell of a lot better with Demo's 4pc. 

 

Imp Swarm is just a volatile thing right now because it's so close that both sides can be used as well as YOU optimize it.  My personal semi-professional opinion is to keep using it now, but when you get your 2pc, you'll want to spend your Soul Fires carefully.  I got exactly a 20% proc rate on it last night.  I casted 100 Soul Fires and saw 20 procs.  I also saw the proc can proc on itself, so there is no ICD on it.  (I stayed up til 230am in giddy joy) 

 

I'm married to Demonology.  I tried to flirt with the other two specs, but I always come home where I love it.

[Omaric 246]

I can't recall what spec you used for Dark Shaman, but the opener for Demonology is absolutely dumb. Here's a somewhat common parse for that fight:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-q70svw5felk2kjr9/sum/damageDone/?s=2409&e=2610

WoL's are still really gross to fiddle around with, so you need to find fights by their time stamps (for those unaware).

We ended up going 8/14 and will be trying to finish up the rest over the weekend on 10 man. Almost every fight that I tried a spec other than Demonology would end with me swapping back and pooping on meters. Demonology is really fantastic right now.

[Zagam 1,982]

Yeah...I opened to 2.0M on Nazgrim with that trash...can only imagine how sick it would be as Demo!  I'll be giving it a shot next week for sure.  For now, it's time for a football weekend!

[Twinkielock 15]

For what it's worth. Had my first real raid last night and I had many many many procs of ULVS. Think I might switch back as well.

[idmaxguy 2]

What would you guys say about demo without UVLS at its current state? I have the LFR version (went all tier without seeing it drop once while I was in raid, only dropped one other time while I wasn't there).

 

If there were minimum qualifications for Demo in T16, what would you say they would be? (tier set bonuses, trinkets, etc)

[Omaric 246]

If you played it last tier it will be much the same.  Average to good without UVLS, but mind blowingly insane with it.  I'm expecting nerfs as when I get the T16 2-piece it's going to be absolutely fucking stupid.

[idmaxguy 2]

My upgraded LFR UVLS procced twice per fight, 3 times if I was lucky. I put Demo on the backburner because of that :( I'm thinking with 2pc and bindings I might give it a shot. I seem to be starting pretty weak this tier as far as keeping up with people. The only fight I have done well on is the giant scorpion, and that's a derp single target affliction stand still fight lol.

[Omaric 246]

This tier or last for UVLS procs?

[Zilthy 36]

RNG is RNG, but honestly, I did not see a very big difference in UVLS procs in 5.4 from what I saw in 5.3.  Admittedly, I do only have an upped LFR version, but it's convinced me to continue stepping in to ToT to get a better version.

 

I would not be surprised if a heroic version remains BIS for Demo.

 

I did realize quite quickly though, that I need to monitor my dots a lot more closely. :D

[Omaric 246]

RNG is RNG, but honestly, I did not see a very big difference in UVLS procs in 5.4 from what I saw in 5.3.  Admittedly, I do only have an upped LFR version, but it's convinced me to continue stepping in to ToT to get a better version.

 

I would not be surprised if a heroic version remains BIS for Demo.

 

I did realize quite quickly though, that I need to monitor my dots a lot more closely.

 

Yeah I've caught myself missing out on Doom uptime because I'm used to the forever and a half version with the glyph.  Unless they nerf UVLS further somehow, it will definitely continue to be a beast. :)

 

Weclome to the forums and hello fellow Minneapolisolite!

[idmaxguy 2]

This tier or last for UVLS procs?

 

Last tier.

[Janglybits 1]

I've got a 2/2 upgraded Normal mode UVLS, and it seems like it's proccing as much as ever now.  It even managed to proc right as I popped MF and IA on top of a bunch of Mogu adds on Spoils last night.  Shot my damage through the roof!  There were plenty of times while banging my head against Heroic Lei Shen that I couldn't wait to get rid of it this tier, but it seems like it's still very, very solid.

[Muoric 3]

Personally I'd love to get rid of the damn trinket. But I think I prefer playing for progress (=dps) more, so I'm stuck with it this tier also.

 

Based on sims the top 2 trinkets for demo are UVLS hc and UVLS (not counting thunderforged to the mix also) and the lfr version is 5th. Ofc it's sims and take them with all the salt you want, but there's no going past the fact that it's a damn strong trinket.

 

When it comes to procrate, afaik the procrate of UVLS was never changed. Just the rppm mechanic with opener, but that's not as bad as I feared (hoped?). But based on changes, I wouldn't expect it to proc less.

 

Now I'd just like to get the hc version, but I'm not sure how I'd convince my guild to go back to tot for it.