[General] Siege of Orgrimmar Mage Style

[Koviko 19]

@Alvala:

 

That is a mechanic for your healers and for the people who have to unlock you. Generally, if you are taking large amounts of damage during that time, you probably also have the Mark of Arrogance debuff on you. Make sure you are keeping an eye out for it and call it out if you have the debuff and are in a prison. Your healers should know to focus more heals onto you or to dispel you, if they have the option.

[Alvala 0]

I'm only talking about the Iron Prison debuff, when I get Mark of Arrogance it shows very clearly. I just don't feel any beneficial effect from using the two damage reduction cooldowns when Iron Prison runs out. I often drop to 10-15% health when it runs out and does its damage, no matter which of either cooldown I use. I'd like to know if anybody has experienced this as well, and the defensives might be bugged?

 

The only substantial damage mitigation I've used on that fight is Greater Invisibility and Ice Block, but I save those for emergencies, such as Falling Meteor + Iron Prison close to each other, or getting chased down by adds when using Arcane Explosion.

[Oltier 471]

I am unfortunately not on that fight yet, but from my experience the adds and falling meteor are usually easily avoidable by using blink or blazing speed. For adds, Frosz Nova, Water elemental Freeze, cone of cold and all kind of roots, slows work so you can get to distance and blizzard them down if needed to.

 

By this, you should be able to use your big defensives on prison.

[Akraen 230]

My healers yelled at me, said to let them handle the prisons since they had a plan. We're 25M though so if you're 10M you might have to handle it yourself.

 

I recommend GI, of course. I recommend GI on every fight.

[Alvala 0]

I am unfortunately not on that fight yet, but from my experience the adds and falling meteor are usually easily avoidable by using blink or blazing speed. For adds, Frosz Nova, Water elemental Freeze, cone of cold and all kind of roots, slows work so you can get to distance and blizzard them down if needed to.

 

By this, you should be able to use your big defensives on prison.

 

The adds are not much of a problem, except if a few get close and Iron Prison is about to run out, and blink is on CD (despite having it glyphed). It's a clusterfuck of a fight. And I do use my defensives for the prison, my concern is that they don't work, or at least Nether Tempest doesn't, so I figured that it'd be useful information to other mages. Last night I tried to use Ice Barrier instead, and my damage taken seemed a bit more steady, but it was only 2-3 pulls before the raid ended. Will try sticking with that for further progress on Sunday.

However, on HC, Falling Meteor does significant damage to the entire raid when it hits, so combined with Iron Prison close to it, and possibly not being at full health, I try to save Greater Invisibility for any such situation.

 

My healers yelled at me, said to let them handle the prisons since they had a plan. We're 25M though so if you're 10M you might have to handle it yourself.

 

I recommend GI, of course. I recommend GI on every fight.

 

And I do have GI, but with the tactic we use as 10m, I get the prison almost every time it is cast, so GI is not up for every one of them as it's a 1 minute debuff, and GI has a 2 min CD. As written above, I save it for when shit hits the fan, and try to use Ice Barrier for when Iron Prison runs out.

 

My point is, it doesn't seem like Nether Tempest does any damage mitigation or healing for Iron Prison, so it's better to use Ice Barrier for this fight on HC.

[Akraen 230]

...

My point is, it doesn't seem like Nether Tempest does any damage mitigation or healing for Iron Prison, so it's better to use Ice Barrier for this fight on HC.

 

Huh? Not worth the GCD imo. If your healers can't handle it, there's a problem. Besides, Temporal Shield is always up for it, reduces it, and heals you back. What's not to love about that? As long as you're not low health you'll survive.

[Akraen 230]

Also Akraen recommends NT on Fallen Protectors. That's like the definition of a NT fight and one of the only fights in SoO where there is no debate as to which bomb is better.

[Koviko 19]

I'm only talking about the Iron Prison debuff, when I get Mark of Arrogance it shows very clearly. I just don't feel any beneficial effect from using the two damage reduction cooldowns when Iron Prison runs out. I often drop to 10-15% health when it runs out and does its damage, no matter which of either cooldown I use. I'd like to know if anybody has experienced this as well, and the defensives might be bugged?

 

The only substantial damage mitigation I've used on that fight is Greater Invisibility and Ice Block, but I save those for emergencies, such as Falling Meteor + Iron Prison close to each other, or getting chased down by adds when using Arcane Explosion.

 

For some reason, I thought you were talking about the Prisons on Sha of Pride. Excuse me.

 

The Iron Prison debuff does exactly 100% of your maximum HP when it expires. That means you only need enough mitigation as your current HP can handle. Temporal Shield mitigates damage by 15% (as of 5.4, in addition to it's normal mechanic), so it will keep you alive through the mechanic assuming you have at least 85% of your HP. If you do not, use a Healthstone first or use either Greater Invisibility or Ice Block. You generally want to save those bigger cooldowns for the times that your Iron Prison will expire close to the explosion of the Falling Ash. If you attempt to just use Temporal Shield during that occasion, you will likely regret it.

 

Generally, you want to use Temporal Shield for every Iron Prison since your healers will likely be shielding you around the time that your Iron Prison expires, giving you some breathing room to work with.

[Alvala 0]

For some reason, I thought you were talking about the Prisons on Sha of Pride. Excuse me.

 

The Iron Prison debuff does exactly 100% of your maximum HP when it expires. That means you only need enough mitigation as your current HP can handle. Temporal Shield mitigates damage by 15% (as of 5.4, in addition to it's normal mechanic), so it will keep you alive through the mechanic assuming you have at least 85% of your HP. If you do not, use a Healthstone first or use either Greater Invisibility or Ice Block. You generally want to save those bigger cooldowns for the times that your Iron Prison will expire close to the explosion of the Falling Ash. If you attempt to just use Temporal Shield during that occasion, you will likely regret it.

 

Generally, you want to use Temporal Shield for every Iron Prison since your healers will likely be shielding you around the time that your Iron Prison expires, giving you some breathing room to work with.

 

But when I check the logs and my meters, then on plenty of attempts, Temporal Shield *does NOT* heal for anything, despite using it on every single prison! So it might do the 15% dmg reduction, but sometimes it's like it does not do that either, as I also have shields on me from the healer and I still drop to 10% health. If it heals back 100% of damage taken, it should heal me up to full health, but it does not, ever. Is there any way for me to check specifically how much damage TS mitigates in the logs? I only know that the healing effect has not been registered at all on multiple attempt using it, aside from attempts where we've gotten far enough for me to use it for fallen meteors or adds.

 

EDIT: Link to log example: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a527qwvt8ua3hg3j/details/24/?enc=bosses&boss=71859

 

I cast Temporal Shield 23 times on our Shamans attempts, but only received the healing from it 14 times. I had Iron Prison on me 29 times over the course of those 8 attempts. I healed myself for 4.3% of all healing done to me. Temporal Ripples healed me for 870k, Iron Prison damaged me for 11.9M damage...

 

On this attempt: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a527qwvt8ua3hg3j/details/24/?s=9691&e=9984

I cast Temporal Shield 2 times, one for each time I had Iron Prison on me, and it healed me for 6 hits. Iron Prison did 1.29M dmg to me, unless I'm looking at the graphs wrong then this damage was not absorbed and Temporal Ripples only healed me for 350K....

 

Can anybody please explain this to me? Am I completely misunderstanding how this works, as I am no pro at logs? Can anybody else provide some logs to compare with?

Edited November 23, 2013 by Alvala

[Oltier 471]

But when I check the logs and my meters, then on plenty of attempts, Temporal Shield *does NOT* heal for anything, despite using it on every single prison! So it might do the 15% dmg reduction, but sometimes it's like it does not do that either, as I also have shields on me from the healer and I still drop to 10% health. If it heals back 100% of damage taken, it should heal me up to full health, but it does not, ever. Is there any way for me to check specifically how much damage TS mitigates in the logs? I only know that the healing effect has not been registered at all on multiple attempt using it, aside from attempts where we've gotten far enough for me to use it for fallen meteors or adds.

 

EDIT: Link to log example: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a527qwvt8ua3hg3j/details/24/?enc=bosses&boss=71859

 

I cast Temporal Shield 23 times on our Shamans attempts, but only received the healing from it 14 times. I had Iron Prison on me 29 times over the course of those 8 attempts. I healed myself for 4.3% of all healing done to me. Temporal Ripples healed me for 870k, Iron Prison damaged me for 11.9M damage...

 

On this attempt: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a527qwvt8ua3hg3j/details/24/?s=9691&e=9984

I cast Temporal Shield 2 times, one for each time I had Iron Prison on me, and it healed me for 6 hits. Iron Prison did 1.29M dmg to me, unless I'm looking at the graphs wrong then this damage was not absorbed and Temporal Ripples only healed me for 350K....

 

Can anybody please explain this to me? Am I completely misunderstanding how this works, as I am no pro at logs? Can anybody else provide some logs to compare with?

Sounds like a bug to me and should be submitted to blizzard.

[Alvala 0]

Sounds like a bug to me and should be submitted to blizzard.

 

Already done, just figured I'd bring it up here to see if others had noticed it, and possibly advice others to use Ice Barrier on this fight. Will definitely keep a closer eye on it when we continue progressing on Shammies.

[Koviko 19]

But when I check the logs and my meters, then on plenty of attempts, Temporal Shield *does NOT* heal for anything, despite using it on every single prison! So it might do the 15% dmg reduction, but sometimes it's like it does not do that either, as I also have shields on me from the healer and I still drop to 10% health. If it heals back 100% of damage taken, it should heal me up to full health, but it does not, ever. Is there any way for me to check specifically how much damage TS mitigates in the logs? I only know that the healing effect has not been registered at all on multiple attempt using it, aside from attempts where we've gotten far enough for me to use it for fallen meteors or adds.

 

The heal mechanic of Temporal Shield isn't really important for this mechanic, though. I can check next week if the Temporal Ripples buff is actually applied, but the main purpose of using Temporal Shield is simply to stay alive. Your healers should handle the rest.

 

 

Already done, just figured I'd bring it up here to see if others had noticed it, and possibly advice others to use Ice Barrier on this fight. Will definitely keep a closer eye on it when we continue progressing on Shammies.

 

In heroic gear and raid buffs, your Ice Barrier should be absorbing about 20% of your health pool in damage. Temporal Shield will absorb 15% without being on the global cooldown, allowing both a speedy reaction and no DPS loss for its usage.

 

I wouldn't recommend Ice Barrier over Temporal Shield, regardless of whether or not there's a bug with getting the heal. Unless you feel you would otherwise die without the extra 5% (which means your healers aren't shielding you or topping you off prior to the debuff expiring), it's not worth the DPS loss.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Koviko

[Alvala 0]

The heal mechanic of Temporal Shield isn't really important for this mechanic, though. I can check next week if the Temporal Ripples buff is actually applied, but the main purpose of using Temporal Shield is simply to stay alive. Your healers should handle the rest.

 

 

 

 

In heroic gear and raid buffs, your Ice Barrier should be absorbing about 20% of your health pool in damage. Temporal Shield will absorb 15% without being on the global cooldown, allowing both a speedy reaction and no DPS loss for its usage.

 

I wouldn't recommend Ice Barrier over Temporal Shield, regardless of whether or not there's a bug with getting the heal. Unless you feel you would otherwise die without the extra 5% (which means your healers aren't shielding you or topping you off prior to the debuff expiring), it's not worth the DPS loss.

 

I can keep Ice Barrier up almost the entire fight, and I just use it when I'm moving around anyway. Without the heal from the NT, just 1 hit from anything else + IP = I'm most likely dead before the healer even knows it. If NT on top of that doesn't even do the 15% damage reduction, then the whole talent is bugged and useless. 1 GCD to refresh Ice Barrier while moving, instead of throwing 1 extra Ice Lance? Yeah. I prefer better survivability over missing out on a couple of icelances over the course of the fight. Dead dps = no dps.

 

I don't expect people to consider me an expert on this and blindly take IB over NT, but instead read this thread and make up their own mind. So far, nobody else has provided any particular experiences with this, other than saying "It's your healer's problem." I used to be a raid healer before switching back to dps, and there is nothing as stupid as people not using their dmg mitigation CDs correctly.

 

This is probably also because we 2-heal this fight, so actually, those extra 5% pr Iron Prison hit, does matter, imo.

 

Edit: We also got the kill last night, finally! Used Ice Barrier, health pool felt alot steadier (ofc also due to more practice with the fight).

Edited November 25, 2013 by Alvala

[Koviko 19]

I can keep Ice Barrier up almost the entire fight, and I just use it when I'm moving around anyway. Without the heal from the NT, just 1 hit from anything else + IP = I'm most likely dead before the healer even knows it. If NT on top of that doesn't even do the 15% damage reduction, then the whole talent is bugged and useless. 1 GCD to refresh Ice Barrier while moving, instead of throwing 1 extra Ice Lance? Yeah. I prefer better survivability over missing out on a couple of icelances over the course of the fight. Dead dps = no dps.

 

I don't expect people to consider me an expert on this and blindly take IB over NT, but instead read this thread and make up their own mind. So far, nobody else has provided any particular experiences with this, other than saying "It's your healer's problem." I used to be a raid healer before switching back to dps, and there is nothing as stupid as people not using their dmg mitigation CDs correctly.

 

This is probably also because we 2-heal this fight, so actually, those extra 5% pr Iron Prison hit, does matter, imo.

 

Edit: We also got the kill last night, finally! Used Ice Barrier, health pool felt alot steadier (ofc also due to more practice with the fight).

 

You're saying that Ice Barrier is "better survivability," but that is an incorrect statement.

 

Firstly, Iron Prison isn't the only mechanic in the fight to which you will need to respond. Temporal Shield is vastly superior for taking damage from Falling Ash or taking damage from a Toxic Tornado or a Toxic Storm if you don't think you can move in time.

 

Secondly, the difference the two abilities make on Iron Prison isn't large enough to compensate for your DPS loss. More often, you will find your guild wiping at 5% rather than you dying from 5% less mitigation. Also, for the 5% to make the difference between your life and death implies that your healers are doing nothing to respond to your debuff. However, they should be topping you off and shielding you.

 

Thirdly, it's not a single GCD of lost DPS. Every time you apply Ice Barrier, you lose a GCD of DPS. In a 7- to 8-minute fight, you can apply Ice Barrier about 15 to 20 times. A normal Frostbolt should hit about 100k. A Fingers of Frost Ice Lance should hit for about 150k - 200k. A Brain Freeze proc should hit for about 150k - 200k. You lose the potential to use and to gain these procs 15 to 20 times during the fight. You are potentially costing yourself a million or more damage done.

 

I understand that you may feel more comfortable with the Ice Barrier mechanic, but it is not superior for this fight.

 

Sidenote: Stop calling Temporal Shield "NT." It's confusing.

[Alvala 0]

You're saying that Ice Barrier is "better survivability," but that is an incorrect statement.

 

Firstly, Iron Prison isn't the only mechanic in the fight to which you will need to respond. Temporal Shield is vastly superior for taking damage from Falling Ash or taking damage from a Toxic Tornado or a Toxic Storm if you don't think you can move in time.

 

Secondly, the difference the two abilities make on Iron Prison isn't large enough to compensate for your DPS loss. More often, you will find your guild wiping at 5% rather than you dying from 5% less mitigation. Also, for the 5% to make the difference between your life and death implies that your healers are doing nothing to respond to your debuff. However, they should be topping you off and shielding you.

 

Thirdly, it's not a single GCD of lost DPS. Every time you apply Ice Barrier, you lose a GCD of DPS. In a 7- to 8-minute fight, you can apply Ice Barrier about 15 to 20 times. A normal Frostbolt should hit about 100k. A Fingers of Frost Ice Lance should hit for about 150k - 200k. A Brain Freeze proc should hit for about 150k - 200k. You lose the potential to use and to gain these procs 15 to 20 times during the fight. You are potentially costing yourself a million or more damage done.

 

I understand that you may feel more comfortable with the Ice Barrier mechanic, but it is not superior for this fight.

 

Sidenote: Stop calling Temporal Shield "NT." It's confusing.

 

I tried using Temporal Shield for a bunch of pulls on Shammies last night as well. It does not do 15% dmg mitigation to iron prison, and it does not proc any healing from it either. It is completely useless for Iron Prison. As I mentioned, due to the tactic we were using (splitting up the raid), I was getting the prison every minute. With GI on a 2 minute cooldown, it simply isn't up for every one of them. Which means I'd need a CD from the 1 healer available every 2 minutes, and I'm not the only player who needs those...

Falling ash isn't nearly as much of an issue as Iron Prison killing me outright. So I'm running with Ice Barrier. I'd rather be a live and dps the entire fight, than worry about the GCD and die and not dps or cause a wipe. Also, I don't cast Ice Barrier every time it's off CD, I save it specifically for Iron Prison. Nothing else really requires personal dmg cooldowns, plus I got Ice Barrier and GI for emergencies.

 

So unless you got a healer who doesn't mind shielding you for every Iron Prison or throwing cooldowns at you like it's Christmas, I'd say go with Ice Barrier. Temporal Shield is a complete waste for Iron Shield, which is by far the most deadly mechanic on this fight, in my opinion.

 

EDIT: Dunno if I mentioned this before, but my guild does this fight with only 2 healers, so everybody has a big responsibility to manage their own survivability.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Alvala

[Koviko 19]

Are you positive the 15% mitigation doesn't happen? If so, that's a serious bug that needs to be reported. I haven't seen anyone else make that complaint and I personally haven't died while using Temporal Shield to mitigate that damage.

[Alvala 0]

Are you positive the 15% mitigation doesn't happen? If so, that's a serious bug that needs to be reported. I haven't seen anyone else make that complaint and I personally haven't died while using Temporal Shield to mitigate that damage.

 

When I run with Temporal Shield, the only thing mitigating damage for me from Iron Prison was stacked shields from the paladin healer. I've outright died multiple times while TP was active from IP damage alone, if the pala hadn't stacked shields on me.

 

Here's an example attempt where I used Temporal Shield because I'd forgotten to swap it out (this is the only fight I don't use Temporal Shield, aside from Malkorok): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3ldqh9575qp6pltc/details/76/?s=3453&e=3801

Iron Prison damaged me for 1.2 million damage and none of it was absorbed. It hit me 2 times, I cast Temporal Shield 3 times on the attempt and Temporal Ripples healed me for 7k. The highest healing on me was Illuminated Healing from the paladin priest, which is all shielding.

 

This is from our kill, where I used Ice Barrier: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3ldqh9575qp6pltc/details/76/?s=8386&e=8840

During this fight, 28.6% of the damage from Iron Prison was absorbed, and Ice Barrier absorbed 1.4m damage. Compared to this, Temporal Ripple is not listed as having absorbed anything on any of the attempts, and the healing from Temporal Ripples have most likely been from other damage from the fight.

 

I would like to see it if others have logs to compare with, and are using Temporal Shield without any problems, plus it's important to know which healer is healing them/shielding them.

 

EDIT: And yeah I have made an in-game bug report, but so far this is the only other mentioning I've seen of it: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8380688590

I keep an eye out for it in patch notes, and I try it out on the first pull every week (in part because I forget to swap), and it hasn't worked at all for me yet, so no changes.

It is also discussed a bit here, although nobody mentions the bug: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10311351513

I keep hoping to see a fix or something, because I do agree that Temporal Shield would be FAR superior to Ice Barrier on this fight.... If only it worked at all.... :(

Edited December 4, 2013 by Alvala

[Koviko 19]

Temporal Shield doesn't count as an absorb. It's a damage mitigation, not an absorption shield. It reduces the damage taken from an attack rather than absorbing part of that damage. So, the fact that you don't take your entire health pool in damage is probably due to your use of Temporal Shield.

 

You might just be paranoid about it, but I'm fairly certain Temporal Shield is mitigating that damage.

[Richten 2]

Hello there, on Iron Juggernaut if you click on Crawler Mine and press Blink before it blows up, you mitigate the damage of it, so with the Glyph of Rapid Displacement u can take two of the Crawler Mines with just blink.

[Oltier 471]

Hello there, on Iron Juggernaut if you click on Crawler Mine and press Blink before it blows up, you mitigate the damage of it, so with the Glyph of Rapid Displacement u can take two of the Crawler Mines with just blink.

Very nice suggestion!

[Akraen 230]

Last night I tried that and died on IJ.

 

Does it not work with Glyph of Momentum? I don't think I lagged.

[Oltier 471]

Last night I tried that and died on IJ.

 

Does it not work with Glyph of Momentum? I don't think I lagged.

Did you immediately press blink as soon as you clicked on the mine?  (I haven't had chance to try it yet, but in theory it sounds completely viable to me.

[Akraen 230]

Jumped on mine, hit blink, nothing happened, second later mine blows up.

[Praavak 1]

Hi somebody can you tell me if Ice Block works as avoid of Rapid Fire --- paragons of klaxxi HC Hisek ability????

[Oltier 471]

Hi somebody can you tell me if Ice Block works as avoid of Rapid Fire --- paragons of klaxxi HC Hisek ability????

Yes, it should. Nothing states in the spell description that it does not. :)