mill Mill Rogue - questions

[OroNerVoSo 1]

I have an hard question , could be viable a MILL rogue with Lorewalker Cho ?

we can full his hand , to melt his cards away  while we Shadowstep on Coldlight Oracle ?

we can also use Vanish as a removal ...if he gets the hand full...

Edited May 15, 2017 by OroNerVoSo

[Mursilis 34]

Mill decks I've tried always had the issue that I had to come from behind to win.  Being able to heal up with a combination of Brann Bronzebeard and Antique Healbot.  Since both are no longer in the current Standard card pool, along with Gang Up, I'm just not convinced milling really works anymore.  But if you can find a viable deck, not tier 1, just viable I'd like to see it.  Always found that deck type to be entertaining (for me at least).

[OroNerVoSo 1]

I also love to think about "out of meta" decks so , let's see if we find someone more to discuss about this!

of course there should be a base deck , that never change along the various versions of the mill type deck.

Of course the Gang Up it's vital for mill rogue , but who knows , now everyone it's just focused on quest rogue and how to counter it.I'm strongly convincted that somethin out of meta will rock harder then quest rogue.

 

[OroNerVoSo 1]

I have some "suggested"/"candidated" cards at the moment.

i think about :

King Mukla 

Vanish 

Daring Reporter 

Leatherclad Hogleader 

Lorewalker Cho

Nat, the Darkfisher

 

editet the topic , not possible without Gang Up , only wild 

Edited May 15, 2017 by OroNerVoSo

[Mursilis 34]

5 hours ago, OroNerVoSo said:

I have some "suggested"/"candidated" cards at the moment.

Vanish

Daring Reporter

Lorewalker Cho

Nat, the Darkfisher

I would agree with these, of course along with the standard cards for milling and Rogue in general.

Shadowstep x2
Coldlight Oracle x2
Backstab x2
Preparation x2
Eviscerate x2
Sap x2

Then we may need help getting more Coldlight Oracles to play, so being able to return the card to the hand would be helpful.  Some cards for that are:

Shadowcaster
Gadgetzan Ferryman
Youthful Brewmaster
Ancient Brewmaster
Moat Lurker

Then additional help healing the character since we won't have a card advantage anymore without Gang up.

Gadgetzan Socialite
Voodoo Doctor
Earthen Ring Farseer
Cult Apothecary
Priestess of Elune

Not saying all these cards need to be involved, just they are options to keep the hero healed and get more Coldlight Oracles to play.

The problem will always be that Coldlight Oracle needs to be available early in the game for any milling option to work.  That was always the catch.

[Keizoku 185]

17 hours ago, OroNerVoSo said:

I have an hard question , could be viable a MILL rogue with Lorewalker Cho ?

we can full his hand , to melt his cards away  while we Shadowstep on Coldlight Oracle ?

we can also use Vanish as a removal ...if he gets the hand full...

You could try by taking the core cards of the Rogue Quest deck (quest included as a back-up option) and use the Oracle as bounce minion. The problem is that Mill is only 'good' against control and the slower tempo decks, and right now we're playing an aggro meta. Fuzzy and Angry Fuzzy might help with filling an aggro deck's hand with junk, but even then, it might not help. 

[OroNerVoSo 1]

11 hours ago, Mursilis said:

I would agree with these, of course along with the standard cards for milling and Rogue in general.

Shadowstep x2
Coldlight Oracle x2
Backstab x2
Preparation x2
Eviscerate x2
Sap x2

Then we may need help getting more Coldlight Oracles to play, so being able to return the card to the hand would be helpful.  Some cards for that are:

Shadowcaster
Gadgetzan Ferryman
Youthful Brewmaster
Ancient Brewmaster
Moat Lurker

Then additional help healing the character since we won't have a card advantage anymore without Gang up.

Gadgetzan Socialite
Voodoo Doctor
Earthen Ring Farseer
Cult Apothecary
Priestess of Elune

Not saying all these cards need to be involved, just they are options to keep the hero healed and get more Coldlight Oracles to play.

The problem will always be that Coldlight Oracle needs to be available early in the game for any milling option to work.  That was always the catch.

Yesterday i tried some of this in standard , meh...pretty hard because we going to draw more and I was Always ahead the enemy in the draws....

So your spot it's right , we need healings (or more damage?)....

Daring Reporter has a bad side effect. if the enemy draw , she gets +1+1 and we all agree with the card text , but if his hand is full , she don't get +1/+1 ...meh pretty bad.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by OroNerVoSo

[OroNerVoSo 1]

actually there are other candidates (Always Imho)

Genzo, the Shark

Barnes (crazy , we can play just 2 creature , Barnes and coldlights... so we can get it early and shadowstep it to get a "third" oracle)

Finja, the Flying Star (third creature with barnes... but we need also Counterfeit Coin x2 to play barnes very early)

Edited May 16, 2017 by OroNerVoSo

[positiv2 953]

2 hours ago, OroNerVoSo said:

Genzo, the Shark

Only works if the opponent has less than 3 cards, which is not exactly common when you are playing a mill rogue. This makes this card not exactly helpful in Mill rogue.

2 hours ago, OroNerVoSo said:

Finja, the Flying Star

It thins out your deck, which is the exact opposite of what you want.

[Mursilis 34]

5 hours ago, OroNerVoSo said:

Yesterday i tried some of this in standard , meh...pretty hard because we going to draw more and I was Always ahead the enemy in the draws....

So your spot it's right , we need healings (or more damage?)....

Daring Reporter has a bad side effect. if the enemy draw , she gets +1+1 and we all agree with the card text , but if his hand is full , she don't get +1/+1 ...meh pretty bad.

 

 

The healing cards help here as they also put minions on the board to fight for control.

Didn't realize Daring Reporter didn't get the bonus if the opponent's hand was full.  Still, even getting an extra 1/1 or 2/2 is nice enough she may be worth keeping as a way to fight for the board, and certainly a card the opponent must deal with quickly or she could single-handedly win the game if left unchecked.

Barnes is certainly another option.  Not sure what the chances are of getting a Coldlight Oracle though with the other required minions in the deck, so may not work all that often but more chances at getting the card are always helpful.

[OroNerVoSo 1]

18 hours ago, Mursilis said:

The healing cards help here as they also put minions on the board to fight for control.

Didn't realize Daring Reporter didn't get the bonus if the opponent's hand was full.  Still, even getting an extra 1/1 or 2/2 is nice enough she may be worth keeping as a way to fight for the board, and certainly a card the opponent must deal with quickly or she could single-handedly win the game if left unchecked.

Barnes is certainly another option.  Not sure what the chances are of getting a Coldlight Oracle though with the other required minions in the deck, so may not work all that often but more chances at getting the card are always helpful.

Yeah right. so if we put barnes in the deck , the other creatures must be creatures that are be good as well like Coldlight... We can't risk to evoke an useless creature in the precise turn....

but with the actually standard meta , i don't think we can make a "winning" mill deck... or at least , this should not be 100% mill based...

best option is to combine the mill concept with an aggro type...

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by OroNerVoSo

[Mursilis 34]

18 hours ago, OroNerVoSo said:

but with the actually standard meta , i don't think we can make a "winning" mill deck... or at least , this should not be 100% mill based...

 

Well that's the key there isn't it?  The current meta is aggro, so giving the opponent lots of cards may actually be detrimental in the long run.  As I said initially, no way a mill rogue is a tier 1 deck.  But it can be a fun, change of pace, type deck could win here and there but certainly won't be consistent.  I play other decks like that.  They don't win all the time, but they certainly entertain me, which is really the whole point.

So that said Barnes is probably out, as you mentioned he needs to be consistent and can't with the other minions needed to help the milling process.  I noticed we're missing AoE damage, so something is needed.  I'm leery of putting in Fan of Knives, since we're trying to avoid any card draw that doesn't make our opponent draw as well, like Coldlight Oracle.  Don't want to run out of resources before our opponent.  Maybe Blade Flurry.  Know if it combines it's ability with Envenom Weapon?  Either way Envenom is probably helpful, and along with SI:7 Agent and Betrayal could keep the opponent's minions in check.

[OroNerVoSo 1]

5 hours ago, Mursilis said:

Well that's the key there isn't it?  The current meta is aggro, so giving the opponent lots of cards may actually be detrimental in the long run.  As I said initially, no way a mill rogue is a tier 1 deck.  But it can be a fun, change of pace, type deck could win here and there but certainly won't be consistent.  I play other decks like that.  They don't win all the time, but they certainly entertain me, which is really the whole point.

So that said Barnes is probably out, as you mentioned he needs to be consistent and can't with the other minions needed to help the milling process.  I noticed we're missing AoE damage, so something is needed.  I'm leery of putting in Fan of Knives, since we're trying to avoid any card draw that doesn't make our opponent draw as well, like Coldlight Oracle.  Don't want to run out of resources before our opponent.  Maybe Blade Flurry.  Know if it combines it's ability with Envenom Weapon?  Either way Envenom is probably helpful, and along with SI:7 Agent and Betrayal could keep the opponent's minions in check.

- thx someone that want fun with this game and that enojoy it -

anyway and unfortunately , blade flurry don't work with envenom weapon. already tried it.

so if we doing it for fun we can set as deck base :

Coldlight Oracle

Shadowstep

Backstab

Sap

Vanish

Preparation

Shadowcaster

Eviscerate

Edited May 18, 2017 by OroNerVoSo

[Mursilis 34]

What happened to the original idea of using Lorewalker Cho?  Getting that card involved the base deck would be:

Lorewalker Cho
Nat, the Darkfisher
Coldlight Oracle x2
Shadowstep x2
Backstab x2
Sap x2
Vanish x2
Preparation x2
Eviscerate x2

With the option to also include:

SI:7 Agent
Envenom Weapon
Betrayal

Then add to that the minions that heal the hero and send Coldlight Oracle back into the hand to get the full deck.

On 5/15/2017 at 4:06 PM, Mursilis said:

Being able to return the card to the hand would be helpful.  Some cards for that are:

Shadowcaster
Gadgetzan Ferryman
Youthful Brewmaster
Ancient Brewmaster
Moat Lurker

Then additional help healing the character since we won't have a card advantage anymore without Gang up.

Gadgetzan Socialite
Voodoo Doctor
Earthen Ring Farseer
Cult Apothecary
Priestess of Elune

Not saying all these cards need to be involved, just they are options to keep the hero healed and get more Coldlight Oracles to play.

 

[positiv2 953]

51 minutes ago, Mursilis said:

What happened to the original idea of using Lorewalker Cho?  Getting that card involved the base deck would be:

Lorewalker Cho

It doesn't draw cards for your opponent, which means your opponent will be gaining quite a lot of value, and since you will be focusing on minions rather than spells, and the spells being reactive or combo, you will rarely fill up the opponent's hand.

[Mursilis 34]

2 hours ago, positiv2 said:

It doesn't draw cards for your opponent, which means your opponent will be gaining quite a lot of value, and since you will be focusing on minions rather than spells, and the spells being reactive or combo, you will rarely fill up the opponent's hand.

Thought the idea was to fill up the hand with spells, then Vanish the board to eliminate all of the minions.  It's rather situational, but also might get some nice spells from the opponent along the way.

[positiv2 953]

50 minutes ago, Mursilis said:

Thought the idea was to fill up the hand with spells, then Vanish the board to eliminate all of the minions.  It's rather situational, but also might get some nice spells from the opponent along the way.

If you are going to fill the hand with Lorewalker Cho, you will very rarely have mana left for Vanish. Without Preparation, you have only 2 mana left for the combo, which will often be not enough.

[OroNerVoSo 1]

we also have to remeber , that the creature that get destroyed with vanish ARE THE FIRSTS from the left from where we look.

[positiv2 953]

4 hours ago, OroNerVoSo said:

we also have to remeber , that the creature that get destroyed with vanish ARE THE FIRSTS from the left from where we look.

Minions are returned in the order of play, and the same goes for destroying minions.

[Mursilis 34]

17 hours ago, positiv2 said:

If you are going to fill the hand with Lorewalker Cho, you will very rarely have mana left for Vanish. Without Preparation, you have only 2 mana left for the combo, which will often be not enough.

It was a thought, as a way to get a card that never gets used into play.  Probably not worth it then.  With that in mind I made a deck for this last night and tried 6 games in causal.  Won 2 against Control Priests and one against Warlock Zoo (won that last one by 1 HP),  lost to 3 Pirate Warriors.

Rogue cards:
Shadowstep x2
Backstab x2
Sap x2
Vanish x2
Preparation x2
Eviscerate x2
 SI:7 Agent x2
Envenom Weapon x2
Betrayal x2

Shadowcaster

 

Neutral cards:
Nat, the Darkfisher
Coldlight Oracle x2
Gadgetzan Ferrymanx2
Youthful Brewmaster x2
Gadgetzan Socialite x2
Earthen Ring Farseer x2

I ended up bouncing the healing minions more than the Coldlight to stay alive.  Definitely playing from behind the entire time and could really use an AoE to help against aggro like Pirate Warrior, which is where I got rolled over easily.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Mursilis

[Caldyrvan 377]

May I ask why you enjoy it? All it does is even more playing solitaire then quest rogue and being totally boring for the enemy. I usually concede the moment I notice it's a mill rogue, because even if I can win I am not interested in seeing my cards go and playing the same minions over and over to do nothing with them at all except for playing them again.

I'm not saying it's not an effective deck I'm just curious, where is the thrill with that deck?

Edited June 16, 2017 by Caldyrvan

[Mursilis 34]

It's a different type of playstyle than most of the other decks out there.  Normally it's a race to put down more minions or play more spells than your opponent to win.  The win condition here is very different, so makes for a good change of pace.  I've got a Priest deck that plays in a similar way that I'll do from time to time to keep things fresh.  Basically I'm a fan of more unique decks than the standard.  It's part of the reason why I've never played Pirate Warrior, even though it's an extremely strong deck I could use to level up easily.  I don't see much of the fun in it.

[Caldyrvan 377]

Nice and good answer, thank you. But I will keep conceding against it, no fun on for the other side :)

[FanOfValeera 253]

10 hours ago, Caldyrvan said:

Nice and good answer, thank you. But I will keep conceding against it, no fun on for the other side :)

I agree with you on 'no fun for the othe side'.

These type of decks may be a changes of paces for those who play it, not just this, but quest rogue and freeze mage too (even though I am a fan of the latter). However, for those who have to play againts them, its only boring, and nothing else. Also, mill decks, quest rogue and jade druid completely screws with control style decks, which is unhealthy for a game which already took a turn to become a rock-paper-scissors game.

 

[Caldyrvan 377]

I would be happy if it would be rock-paper-scissor but atm it's just rock-paper.

Anyway most rogues I encounter lately are playing with themselves, quest, mill, or endless stream of Razorpetal and Yogg-Saron, Hope's End . Sad to say I would choose quest rogue to play against if I had to.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Caldyrvan