Nightblooming Frond Sims

[Kryptknight 4]

I finally got this trinket on Heroic last night (little late unfortunately) and I recall when Nighthold first released that people seemed to think that sims for this trinket over-stated it's damage. I wanted to check to see if that was still the prevailing opinion or if the sims can be more accurately relied upon for this trinket now.

For Outlaw and Sub I have 890 Convergence (used on both specs) and 880 mastery and vers stat sticks respectively so this would definitely seem to be an upgrade over those two for both dungeons and raids. For sin I have a 905 drought with shoulders, which I assume would still prevail over an 890 Nightblooming Frond in raid situations (probably not for dungeon trash). 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Kryptknight

[Carrn 284]

On 6/7/2017 at 2:59 PM, Kryptknight said:

I finally got this trinket on Heroic last night (little late unfortunately) and I recall when Nighthold first released that people seemed to think that sims for this trinket over-stated it's damage. I wanted to check to see if that was still the prevailing opinion or if the sims can be more accurately relied upon for this trinket now.

For Outlaw and Sub I have 890 Convergence (used on both specs) and 880 mastery and vers stat sticks respectively so this would definitely seem to be an upgrade over those two for both dungeons and raids. For sin I have a 905 drought with shoulders, which I assume would still prevail over an 890 Nightblooming Frond in raid situations (probably not for dungeon trash). 

It's tough to say. Outlaw doesn't white hit as frequently as the other specs so Frond is less useful on it. My top 2 trinkets are Frond and CoF for Sin and Sub, simply because DoS changes Sin to a much more clunky style which is significantly more difficult to play perfectly (the only real situation where it's noticeably better than Frond since the patch that made DoS break stealth). 

I'd lean towards CoF with your Vers stat stick for Outlaw, NBF and CoF for Sub, and your choice of DoS and NBF for Sin

[Kryptknight 4]

2 hours ago, Carrn said:

It's tough to say. Outlaw doesn't white hit as frequently as the other specs so Frond is less useful on it. My top 2 trinkets are Frond and CoF for Sin and Sub, simply because DoS changes Sin to a much more clunky style which is significantly more difficult to play perfectly (the only real situation where it's noticeably better than Frond since the patch that made DoS break stealth). 

I'd lean towards CoF with your Vers stat stick for Outlaw, NBF and CoF for Sub, and your choice of DoS and NBF for Sin

I'm glad you brought up the point about Outlaw hitting for less with NBF because it seemed to do piddly damage (<3%) yesterday when I was using it and I wasn't sure what the issue was. For some reason I expected it to be a pretty healthy increase, but it seems like the Vers stick may be the better option to you point.

Appreciate the feedback.  

[Carrn 284]

1 hour ago, Kryptknight said:

I'm glad you brought up the point about Outlaw hitting for less with NBF because it seemed to do piddly damage (<3%) yesterday when I was using it and I wasn't sure what the issue was. For some reason I expected it to be a pretty healthy increase, but it seems like the Vers stick may be the better option to you point.

Appreciate the feedback.  

It's usually 4% of my overall damage as Sub, but that puts it around 4th-5th place in terms of which of my abilities actually deal damage (I've seen it deal 12m damage in 4 minutes). Certainly harder than my white hits or Backstab, but it sometimes swaps places with Soul Rip.

 

[Hamburglar 1]

I am not a fan of Nightblooming Frond at all....I have that and Entwined Elemental Foci.   Im casual so only have raided the full normal NH with some Heroic.  

My DPS increases everytime I have Entwined slotted and Nightblooming in my bags.  I average about 2-2.5% dmg from the Frond (most sims use 3.8 or 4% to calc.  I understand you can be a stud DPS'er in one fight if Frond gives you love, but what about the other 8-9 fights where it doesn't?  

I'd really like to see some empirical data showing that the Frond is 2nd best trinket for Sin Rogues...From my experience, I'd put it in the Top 10, but no better than that...

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Hamburglar said:

I am not a fan of Nightblooming Frond at all....I have that and Entwined Elemental Foci.   Im casual so only have raided the full normal NH with some Heroic.  

My DPS increases everytime I have Entwined slotted and Nightblooming in my bags.  I average about 2-2.5% dmg from the Frond (most sims use 3.8 or 4% to calc.  I understand you can be a stud DPS'er in one fight if Frond gives you love, but what about the other 8-9 fights where it doesn't?  

I'd really like to see some empirical data showing that the Frond is 2nd best trinket for Sin Rogues...From my experience, I'd put it in the Top 10, but no better than that...

I would show you logs where you can see the damage that it puts out, but unfortunately WCL is down for maintenance atm. If you want, remind me later, and I'll grab them

[Hamburglar 1]

most definitely, please!   Thanks!

[Carrn 284]

1 hour ago, Hamburglar said:

most definitely, please!   Thanks!

Trilliax look how many people use it, rough check gives 3/4 top 100 parses using it

Krosus looks to be about the same.

Example 1

You'll notice that Frond is over seven and a half percent of his damage, totalling for 23.5 million over the 4 minute fight (30% uptime).

Obviously, top logs are  going to have higher uptime, but even in middle and lower tier logs it's still making up a significant portion of their damage

Example 2 mid tier (85th percentile) 3.4% damage and 13% uptime

Example 3 low tier (59th percentile) 5.6% damage and 26% uptime

 

I would like to add, that while there are other trinkets on the lists that do more damage than logs with Nightblooming Frond, that doesn't mean that saying Frond is the 2nd best trinket is incorrect. There's a PvP trinket on there for christ's sake, but that doesn't make it better. You can win a poker hand with a 2 and 7, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't rather double Aces - titanforging makes an exact BiS difficult to determine, but the addition of player mechanics and that sort of thing is an important factor too

[NickNite1 0]

Frond + SnD is much higher than what's listed on the Trinket page, IMO higher than Concordance for how often you hit with SnD.  

[Hamburglar 1]

I get what you are showing me with Frond, but again, I ask that you show me an entire raid parse where Recursive gets close to 4%.  Example 1 was at 3.6ish, the other 2 were far far below that.  

Like I said before, you might benefit from Frond once or twice a raid run, but the other times you are in famine mode.  With all the RNG Sin rogues have already, it's not really worth adding the most unpredictable trinket in WoW history to the list.

As an aside, the top of the board showed a rogue with Entwined Elemental Foci, several other rogues had Urns or other trinkets with a secondary stat.

Nightblooming Frond is the "sexy" pick, not the best one if you wish to be in every fight  

[Carrn 284]

On 6/15/2017 at 2:39 AM, Hamburglar said:

As an aside, the top of the board showed a rogue with Entwined Elemental Foci, several other rogues had Urns or other trinkets with a secondary stat.

You can't pick the exceptions to prove the rule.

1/4 of the top 100 parses had a combo that wasn't Frond + Convergence. That means that 3/4 of people are using both of them. Of the top 20, 3 people are using something that isn't Frond + Convergence. The evidence is pretty clear that Frond pays off. The only non-Frond parses have ridiculous (and incredibly unlikely) high level titanforges, with the current top one being a PvP trinket.

As I said, while you absolutely can win a poker hand with 2 and 7, the odds are much better if you get double aces. Just because other trinkets can work doesn't mean that the better choice, the one which is most likely to result in the most success, is Frond + Convergence.

On 6/15/2017 at 2:39 AM, Hamburglar said:

I get what you are showing me with Frond, but again, I ask that you show me an entire raid parse where Recursive gets close to 4%.  Example 1 was at 3.6ish, the other 2 were far far below that.  

What is the point on comparing trinkets on a whole-raid basis? You can swap gear between fights, if one trinket provides better damage on cleave targets (which I don't believe was the question, hence why I pointed out single target heavy encounters), you can swap to that on fights which involve lots of cleave.

I really don't see your point here.

[Hamburglar 1]

Im merely stating that the leader board is mixed with different trinket couplings.  Using a leader board to prove Frond's validity is a bit overreaching though, since those boards highly depend on player skill and ilevel over anything else, but I was willing to play along.

The 3 examples you gave me were 1 time fights for 3 different rogues.  are you sure you understand the whole "can't pick exceptions to the rules" thing?