Crit/Stomp/OwtP build for BM

[jmaster299 5]

16 hours ago, Luthixx said:

Well, realistically this build is only viable until you get T20 set bonuses, so don't stress too much. But yes, qa'pla is a viable alternative again, although the belt is still stronger. However, if you're working towards getting 35% crit, then maybe swap out to one of those legendaries if you're well behind on crit.

EEF is still a mediocre at best trinket because it's procs are highly unreliable, but still a viable option for the moment.

Not true, plenty of other Hunter Theorycrafters have the Crit/Stomp build viable or beating the DF build even with T20. We need to break this terrible habit of dismissing any source that isn't Azortharion. One big factor that almost no one is taking into account is the vast majority of the player base don't posses the same level of skill that the top level players they try to copy. A far more significant portion of the player base will come closer to being able to produce the numbers they sim under the Crit/Stomp build than they will the DF build, or by playing MM, because it's the most forgiving of the 3.

That's not to say people shouldn't try to play what's best because they're not a 90% percentile raider, but it is smarter to play the spec/build that you're going to be most effective at. Especially when all 3 are absolutely competitive with each other. Very, very, very few players will produce numbers that match the highest level sims. Hell, just look the logs, they prove exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Using Trilliax logs since 7.2.5, since he's a good example of a fight you can't pad meters on, there is a difference of 150,000 DPS within the top 100 parses alone, and that's for all specs. Which is about equal to the difference between Azor's top MM sim and top BM sim. The gap in the first 100 players was even bigger in 7.2 at 182,000 DPS. So for all the tens or hundreds of thousands of Hunters out there, they are doing themselves a disservice by only ever playing the spec that one theorycrafter says is the best.

Just because it's the best when a compute executes it flawlessly does not mean it will produce the most DPS for everyone. Some people don't like playing specs that are oversimplified, and I can certainly understand that. I'm just trying to live in reality and not living and dieing by sims that I can never replicate because I'm not a computer.

I for one would like to see Azor embrace the Crit/Stomp build and present it to players as an option. Instead of just shitting on it and spreading the lie that it shouldn't be used once we have our T20 4pc.

On that note, Eye's of the Beast has updated their own original article with some new sims and information. They too have DF slightly ahead of Crit/Stomp, but they are within less than 2% of each other. That brings us right back to the skill cap issue, with the average player being more likely to execute the Crit/Stomp effectively than the DF build.

This is a link to EotB's sim results. http://eyesofthebeast.com/stomp_vs_df_results.html

Edited June 19, 2017 by jmaster299

[Luthixx 138]

38 minutes ago, jmaster299 said:

Not true, plenty of other Hunter Theorycrafters have the Crit/Stomp build viable or beating the DF build even with T20. We need to break this terrible habit of dismissing any source that isn't Azortharion. One big factor that almost no one is taking into account is the vast majority of the player base don't posses the same level of skill that the top level players they try to copy. A far more significant portion of the player base will come closer to being able to produce the numbers they sim under the Crit/Stomp build than they will the DF build, or by playing MM, because it's the most forgiving of the 3.

That's not to say people shouldn't try to play what's best because they're not a 90% percentile raider, but it is smarter to play the spec/build that you're going to be most effective at. Especially when all 3 are absolutely competitive with each other. Very, very, very few players will produce numbers that match the highest level sims. Hell, just look the logs, they prove exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Using Trilliax logs since 7.2.5, since he's a good example of a fight you can't pad meters on, there is a difference of 150,000 DPS within the top 100 parses alone, and that's for all specs. Which is about equal to the difference between Azor's top MM sim and top BM sim. The gap in the first 100 players was even bigger in 7.2 at 182,000 DPS. So for all the tens or hundreds of thousands of Hunters out there, they are doing themselves a disservice by only ever playing the spec that one theorycrafter says is the best.

Just because it's the best when a compute executes it flawlessly does not mean it will produce the most DPS for everyone. Some people don't like playing specs that are oversimplified, and I can certainly understand that. I'm just trying to live in reality and not living and dieing by sims that I can never replicate because I'm not a computer.

I for one would like to see Azor embrace the Crit/Stomp build and present it to players as an option. Instead of just shitting on it and spreading the lie that it shouldn't be used once we have our T20 4pc.

On that note, Eye's of the Beast has updated their own original article with some new sims and information. They too have DF slightly ahead of Crit/Stomp, but they are within less than 2% of each other. That brings us right back to the skill cap issue, with the average player being more likely to execute the Crit/Stomp effectively than the DF build.

This is a link to EotB's sim results. http://eyesofthebeast.com/stomp_vs_df_results.html

In no way am I dismissing the stomp build - it's the most fun I've had this entire expansion. But it's a very RNG based spec, which is something I would prefer to avoid where possible. I get far more consistent results with DF at the moment, albeit slightly lower than stomp. 

In all honesty, I would say that stomp is the LEAST forgiving of the two BM specs, it's utter garbage with low procs, and it completely dominates with high procs - it's a lot less consistent. However, I do appreciate it a LOT more come two target fights.

I think everyone should stick with the spec they enjoy the most and find the gear that associates with it - but if you're looking to find the best, most consistent results, DF will give that in ToS with T20 set bonuses. 

Out of curiosity, what makes you think the average player will be better able to execute the stomp build over DF? I personally find it far more challenging and you have to be more reactive with your casts as you can't sit on charges for very long and it can be quite punishing with its rng - more often than not I'll only be able to get one dire beast out before TT, and then have 3 procs within 5 seconds as soon as I've used it, which is quite frustrating. 

[Thorxam 1]

I agree With alot said earlier in this post. I personally feel the icy-veins guides for Hunters have lost value in 2 ways, its even more than before just a staring point for New Hunters and thats OK, but what i think made it worse is the conlusions without real tought behind it are presented as The Truth, based on what? patchwerk sims?

The true strengt of crit/stomp build is that:

1.it has very high single target dmg and a inbuilt cleave without having to use multishot for killing adds. Esp on adds dying fast and a target swap for pet is painful. This is on many fights a huge advantage is nowhere to be seen in any sims.

Just imagine the i.e encounters of scorp or tich. Try and put up a DF hunter going full single target vs a crit /stomp doing full single target on those 2 fights, you can actually see the same difference on, elisande, guldan actually all encounters in NH, even trilliax on mythic with add spawning... and you'll see the crit/stomp do bit less single target, but it also helped with killing adds. If Df want to compete on all those fights it has to start weaving in multishot or even go full multishot for some periods during encounter, making their numbers look great... perhaps even equal or bit better than crit/stomp, but their singletarget is much weaker by the fact they sacrificed alot of focus and GCD on multishot. While crit stomp can compete with going full single target and get decent amount of cleave on top of that. This advantage is really high on adds that usually dont live long making the upfront stomp dmg relatively stronger for adds dying fast, scorp adds, krosus adds, tich bloods, adds/eye on guldan and more...FUrthermore no pet swap necessary is an advantage, even with recent range improvements.. imagine plants spawning on bota.

2. it can use Dire beast on any target regardless of what direction the hunter face. The hunter can be facing boss dealing single target rotation while launching dire beasts to an add or pack of adds tanked behind him. This is on many fights a huge advantage that is nowhere to be seen in any sims and not mentioned anywhere in the guide, not even under the very description of the talent.

3. the parsel chest that boost DF build on patchwerk fights, looses value for DF build when/if it chooses to multishot for beastcleave, while Crit/stomp build get away with using ring/belt and no real downside for using multishot. This is mentioned in the guide at least.

All in all, I'm pretty confident that crit/stomp build will be better than DF for mythic progress on all or close to all encounters in Tomb of Sargeras, due to inbuilt cleave, able to damage any  add or adds 360 degrees arround the hunter while still maintining 100% singletarget rotation and not be reliant on parsel chest. 2 t19 925 will last a long time for crit/stomp and on progress. And i'm also fairly certain that MM needs the 12-13% advantage on patchwerk sims to even be able to compete with Crit/stomp on mythic progress. Why? Because you need to move out of shit;P MM will struggle on mythic to keep up, just as they did in 7.2 even tho they simmed higher on patchwerk fight with optimal gear vs BM in optimal gear. Albeit the difference was a bit lower and MM has a bit bigger theoretical advantage now, it will not be enough on most mythic encounters to beat crit/stomp build.

I will be fun to see if my "bold" assumption is gonna hold, but only warcraftlogs will show when we start mythic progress. One thing is for sure, instead of focusing on patchwerk sims, focusing on the actually fight, we should start asking ourselves, what setup will give best result for this specific encounter. If you as a raider manage to do that, you will be 95-99 on all encounters. Thats not even a bold assumption. 

 

 

 

[Luthixx 138]

5 hours ago, Thorxam said:

3. the parsel chest that boost DF build on patchwerk fights, looses value for DF build when/if it chooses to multishot for beastcleave, while Crit/stomp build get away with using ring/belt and no real downside for using multishot. This is mentioned in the guide at least.

 not be reliant on parsel chest. 2 t19 925 will last a long time for crit/stomp and on progress. 

Realistically speaking, you also have to consider how much damage Parsel's actually gives you - flat 4% isn't much but 8% leech on a prog fight is utterly ridiculous! It also applies to all your damage all the time, and when you're getting a lot less value out of BW because of adding in stomp (unaffected by 2pc t20) it does pull ahead quite nicely. Also considering losing out on the 4pc t19 does cut the uptime even more so than it does already.
The value of 2pc T19 is going to disappear pretty quickly unless you've actually been lucky enough to get 925 legs and cape/gloves. The stomp/crit build will still work fine without the ring, as well as without 2pc t19 - granted the 2pc t19 will definitely be helpful on AoE, for the most part you won't necessarily need it to be successful. 

But as a general argument for the stomp build, you've made some awesome points, it will without a doubt pull ahead on most situations where there are short-lived but important adds etc. I look forward to seeing how both builds perform with T20. Personally, I'll hang on to stomp build for as long as I can, but DF will still feel awesome on burst AoE purely because of the massive output you can generate on demand. 

I don't know if you've been lucky enough to get the ring yet, but I got the chest the other night and I'm running chest/belt, and the 4% damage actually does work quite well, especially when you consider it also isn't RNG dependent like the rest of the build - I've had times where I can get 5 DB charges back to back, and other times where I don't get a single wild call proc between each cast of BW - that 4% works wonders in that down time.

[Khallid 110]

On 6/19/2017 at 4:24 AM, jmaster299 said:

Not true, plenty of other Hunter Theorycrafters have the Crit/Stomp build viable or beating the DF build even with T20. We need to break this terrible habit of dismissing any source that isn't Azortharion. One big factor that almost no one is taking into account is the vast majority of the player base don't posses the same level of skill that the top level players they try to copy. A far more significant portion of the player base will come closer to being able to produce the numbers they sim under the Crit/Stomp build than they will the DF build, or by playing MM, because it's the most forgiving of the 3.

While this is technically valid, I personally find it a difficult argument to give any weight because all the BM rotations are super easy. And I'm not complaining. I personally find it more fun if I can focus on boss mechanics rather than dps rotation.

On 6/19/2017 at 4:24 AM, jmaster299 said:

Using Trilliax logs since 7.2.5, since he's a good example of a fight you can't pad meters on, there is a difference of 150,000 DPS within the top 100 parses alone, and that's for all specs. Which is about equal to the difference between Azor's top MM sim and top BM sim. The gap in the first 100 players was even bigger in 7.2 at 182,000 DPS. So for all the tens or hundreds of thousands of Hunters out there, they are doing themselves a disservice by only ever playing the spec that one theorycrafter says is the best.

Trilliax is a pretty bad fight to check dps on. Dealing with the robots and cake properly will often reduce your dps by running out of range of the boss or having to turn around entirely and click robots. It's one of the few bosses where the mechanics will actually impact a BM hunter. So it is padding to just hit the boss. Star Augur is probably the best fight to compare straight up dps as a BM hunter.

Besides, there's always a handful of people at the very top parses with ridiculously strong gear. So It's not meaningful to compare the top 100 parses.

3 hours ago, Luthixx said:

Realistically speaking, you also have to consider how much damage Parsel's actually gives you - flat 4% isn't much but 8% leech on a prog fight is utterly ridiculous! It also applies to all your damage all the time, and when you're getting a lot less value out of BW because of adding in stomp (unaffected by 2pc t20) it does pull ahead quite nicely. Also considering losing out on the 4pc t19 does cut the uptime even more so than it does already.
The value of 2pc T19 is going to disappear pretty quickly unless you've actually been lucky enough to get 925 legs and cape/gloves. The stomp/crit build will still work fine without the ring, as well as without 2pc t19 - granted the 2pc t19 will definitely be helpful on AoE, for the most part you won't necessarily need it to be successful. 

The 8% leech is a lot less impressive than what you think it is in an actual raid environment. Let's say you're dealing 1 million dps, so the 8% leech heals you for 80k per second, which sounds great for a dps. However that is significantly lower than what Shaldrassil's Roots heal, because if you have 4 million HP, they're healing you for 120k per second (while standing), which is about the amount of HP you will have if you're dealing that dps. I've used the legs for a while and on most fights you waste 80% of their effect simply because the raid healers are healing you to full. The only exceptions were DoTs like Tichondrius' carrion plague, where you keep losing HP constantly. In raid, the only legendary that actually heals properly is Prydaz.

By the way, note that Mend Pet also triggers leech, so if you're in a low focus downtime and just waiting, sometimes you can pad your self heal a bit with Mend Pet. It doesn't work if you're at full HP though.

Stomp build aside, I haven't seen sims using Dire Frenzy Tier20 and the Tier19 2-piece bonus. I would suspect it to work well wearing the ring of the huntsman. I agree that the chest is the strongest legendary by itself, but there are several combinations that I haven't seen tested. A weaker legendary that doesn't compete with tier like the ring, the boots or the bracers plus the 2-piece Tier 19 may very well compete, depending on the specific item levels of the gear (I have pretty decent Tier 19 pieces to keep). I already have the ring and it's giving me slightly higher numbers than the shoulders, which is ranked higher, although obviously I don't have Tier20 yet.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Khallid

[Luthixx 138]

8 hours ago, Khallid said:

Stomp build aside, I haven't seen sims using Dire Frenzy Tier20 and the Tier19 2-piece bonus. I would suspect it to work well wearing the ring of the huntsman. I agree that the chest is the strongest legendary by itself, but there are several combinations that I haven't seen tested. A weaker legendary that doesn't compete with tier like the ring, the boots or the bracers plus the 2-piece Tier 19 may very well compete, depending on the specific item levels of the gear (I have pretty decent Tier 19 pieces to keep). I already have the ring and it's giving me slightly higher numbers than the shoulders, which is ranked higher, although obviously I don't have Tier20 yet.

Yeah, everything is open to change at this stage and it will be 100% individual and a cookie cutter build won't work anymore. Having 925 titanforged t19 pieces would probably still be worth keeping all the way through ToS until you're getting mythic TF gear if you want to run belt/ring for stomp, that would be viable, but not everyone has that - my only tier piece above 920 is the cape. I think in a few weeks time when we've had the chance to gear up with T20 and test out the raid a bit, we'll be able to see how we go.

 

8 hours ago, Khallid said:

While this is technically valid, I personally find it a difficult argument to give any weight because all the BM rotations are super easy. And I'm not complaining. I personally find it more fun if I can focus on boss mechanics rather than dps rotation.

^ BM is quite honestly the easiest spec in the entire game to play and requires very little thought. If you follow the rotation, the only difference between meeting your sims and parsing 100% is having godly procs, and having a strong team that can kill the boss fast.

 

[Thorxam 1]

19 hours ago, Luthixx said:

Realistically speaking, you also have to consider how much damage Parsel's actually gives you - flat 4% isn't much but 8% leech on a prog fight is utterly ridiculous! It also applies to all your damage all the time, and when you're getting a lot less value out of BW because of adding in stomp (unaffected by 2pc t20) it does pull ahead quite nicely. Also considering losing out on the 4pc t19 does cut the uptime even more so than it does already.
The value of 2pc T19 is going to disappear pretty quickly unless you've actually been lucky enough to get 925 legs and cape/gloves. The stomp/crit build will still work fine without the ring, as well as without 2pc t19 - granted the 2pc t19 will definitely be helpful on AoE, for the most part you won't necessarily need it to be successful. 

But as a general argument for the stomp build, you've made some awesome points, it will without a doubt pull ahead on most situations where there are short-lived but important adds etc. I look forward to seeing how both builds perform with T20. Personally, I'll hang on to stomp build for as long as I can, but DF will still feel awesome on burst AoE purely because of the massive output you can generate on demand. 

I don't know if you've been lucky enough to get the ring yet, but I got the chest the other night and I'm running chest/belt, and the 4% damage actually does work quite well, especially when you consider it also isn't RNG dependent like the rest of the build - I've had times where I can get 5 DB charges back to back, and other times where I don't get a single wild call proc between each cast of BW - that 4% works wonders in that down time.

I agree, and just to avoid any misunderstanding, Parsel is still best/one of the best legendaries. I was merely trying to say it wont be -as strong- for DF when DF has to start helping with adds. It is as strong as the patchwerk sims suggest, can't argue that.  Regardless of helping with adds on an encounter, chest will be best or close to best regardless.

And yes,  I've been lucky with drops I guess:) I got the ring, so I'm currently using the belt/ring. Regarding parsel's i think i'll wear this of down the line, but currently I'm sporting the scorp chest 925 with socket, so I benefit more from replacing some of my 905 items with a legendary . I also have a 920 + a 925 T19, making me fit in belt/ring and hopefully 4 T20 HC within reasonable short time along with my 2t19.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Thorxam

[ravenshaun 0]

any input on what the best trinkets to run with this build?

 

[Luthixx 138]

3 hours ago, ravenshaun said:

any input on what the best trinkets to run with this build?

 

They're included in the BiS guide - Engine of Eradication and the Tarnished Sentinel's Medallion. Engine is INSANELY good - the buff lasts for 30 seconds if you collect the orbs, and makes a noticeable difference to your dps. The Sentinel's Medallion syncs up beautifully with Aspect of the Wild and provides an insane amount of burst dps. I'll get back to you when I get specific numbers on the Sentinel's Medallion, but Engine alone is quite a nice upgrade - for me was around 40k for a 900 ilvl up from an 880 BTI.

[Khallid 110]

I'm actually somewhat skeptic about The Tarnished Sentinel's Medallion right now. I was looking at public logs of hunters using it and it's dealing only between 4% and 5% of their dps (barely stronger than autoshot), which seems unimpressive for a trinket that doesn't give agility. It also deals less damage in BM than in MM, so Bestial Wrath don't increase its damage, but Trueshot's increased crit damage does apply, which makes me think it doesn't work particularly well with BM. I was hoping Mastery would apply, since it's a summoned owl "pet", but it clearly doesn't. So it might be pretty decent at low ilvls, but it's not going to scale up with gear.