beast mastery BM dps loss after 7.2.5? New build?

[Trillium 0]

My ilvl 896 BM hunter w/ concordance was using the talents Dire stable, DF, BF, AMOC and killer cobra along with the 4pc t19 set, 24% crit, 17% haste, 80% mastery, Lego belt and Prydaz and doing terrible single target DPS today on the raid dummy using my usual rotation. I even dipped to 590k dps at one point. Without flasks and food this number was usually sitting above 800k, even peaking at 1.3m sometimes after applying CDs, so I'm wondering what I need to do to get back to my usual numbers? I know we got a buff in 7.2.5 but I'm really stumped as to why my build is just seemingly entirely useless now and if I'll ever be returning to it. I tried using stomp and swapping out my ring to be 29% crit, 17% haste and 70% mastery and saw a slight difference, but it just seems pretty crappy still.

[Khallid 110]

Well, you didn't have the legendary shoulders before, which means that now that 2 charges of Dire Frenzy is baseline, you should not be using your "usual rotation". Learn how to run the rotation with 2 charges first. 

Also very important to note: not everything was buffs. The strongest artifact traits got nerfed significantly (the ones that affect Kill Command), the 4-piece bonus from Tier 19 was cut in half, Dire Frenzy now generates less focus and now it generates focus over 8 seconds instead of instantly. All those changes to DF and the tier set will affect your rotation, timers and focus regen. Still, the overall dps should go up for you, since you didn't have the shoulders. I saw a small decrease in dps in mine (I think, I haven't gone to raid to check against logs), but not that large.

[Trillium 0]

How should I be integrating my 2 charges then? I noticed with stomp I was kinda focus starved, didn't like that. I was spreading them out, am I supposed to use them at once? Usually I'd do BW> use CDs > CS KC spam and a DF to keep my focus from hitting too low, or a racial silence (blood elf) My relics are indeed the KC ones, should I change them out too?

Edited June 14, 2017 by Trillium

[Khallid 110]

There's a few things the 2 charges can do.

For the opener use them spread out, definitely not back to back. Dire Frenzy puts an attack speed buff on your pet for 8 seconds, so use it every 6 or 7 seconds. The third charge will come in time so the buff doesn't fall off. I tend to throw my second Dire Frenzy when it's half the way to recharging. Like this your pet will get the 3 stacks of Dire Frenzy during Bestial Wrath, and a single Wild Call proc will extend it another ~15 seconds. Works even better during Bloodlust.

Another thing is that given that you have 2 charges, it is a lot more important not to use Dire Frenzy when Bestial Wrath is close to coming out of cooldown. Say, 8 seconds for the next BW, but your DF takes more than 8 seconds to recharge so you can just wait (unless you're using the Crit+OWTP build that makes Wild Call proc a lot) and lose nothing.

Sorry I made a mistake, Dire Frenzy doesn't generate less focus. For some reason I thought it did when I read the patch notes.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Khallid

[Trillium 0]

I tried the Crit Owtp build just now, I noticed a lot of procs, almost too many that I had no idea where to use them all lol. With that build, should I just keep it up whenever I get the proc since it seems to be popping up so often? Using my old build, the rule is to spread them out then I see?

[Luthixx 138]

With the changes made, the Dire Frenzy build results in significantly lower uptime on BW than the crit/stomp/owtp build (which I'm currently running and LOVING).

You would've gone from 50-60% uptime in BW to around 40%.

Read the section under rotation to find out the best opening sequence to use with Dire Frenzy. But for the rest of the fight, if you get procs it's usually good to hold onto it for a few seconds to get the most out of your Dire Frenzy buff - if you have just used one charge and get a proc, wait about 4-5 secs before using the new charge, then by the time it's recharged again you'll be able to get up to 3 stacks of the buff on your pet. It's a bit of a change but quite nice.

In general though the stomp build is pulling slightly ahead until ToS launches, when it'll only be viable if you obtain the new legendary ring, but also relies on a totally different stat priority.

Luckily I saved the rings/necks for this setup but the stats I run for the different builds are:

• Dire Frenzy - 21% crit 18% haste 91% mastery
• Crit/Stomp/OWTP - 34% crit 11% haste 72% mastery

In general though, BM was a bit iffy with nerfs/buffs - across the board it's generally the same, you just have to really focus on using the 2 charges as best you can to get as many stacks of the buff on your pet as possible for as long as possible.

[Trillium 0]

I started inspecting other BMs around the lodge, I noticed a lot had started using WOTC, DF, and BF. I tried that with my first stat build, paying more attention to keeping DF buffs up. I used 25% crit, 17% haste, 80% mastery and was able to hold 700-800k, but sometimes i dipped to 600ish again. I went out to solo some BS world bosses and was doing 500-600kdps on them, usually I do like 700kish on them. I guess I do prefer keeping my current stats, I'll just wait until I can get my hands on some t20 I suppose. My AOE seems fine, so I'll just try to stay out of raids until then. I did have a question about managing the DF buff, it seems good to stack them but I've also been advised to not use the 2 charges in succession, at once. Does that mean just use the procs as they come, keeping DF on CD, using each charge as soon as it regenerates instead of holding onto 2 and using them at once, effectively stretching em out so you have longer uptime instead of a shorter uptime but with more stacks?

[Banard 61]

9 hours ago, Trillium said:

 I know we got a buff in 7.2.5 

We got nerfed not buff, especially compared to other classes. Been wiping on mythic guldan for weeks and I am use to being between #1 and #4 in dps...2 BMs and 2 DK were fighting it out for the top. Now i am struggling to stay in the middle of the pack and to mnay pulls find myself on the bottom. There is huge difference right down to the feel of the spec. Shit last night felt slow. 

The spec overall needs a buff, all the qq from people without the shoulders have pushed the spec back into oblivion unless something isn't done about it. They gave every one 2 stacks and overcompensated on the nerfs.  

I am not a happy camper. 

[Khallid 110]

1 hour ago, Banard said:

We got nerfed not buff, especially compared to other classes. Been wiping on mythic guldan for weeks and I am use to being between #1 and #4 in dps...2 BMs and 2 DK were fighting it out for the top. Now i am struggling to stay in the middle of the pack and to mnay pulls find myself on the bottom. There is huge difference right down to the feel of the spec. Shit last night felt slow. 

The spec overall needs a buff, all the qq from people without the shoulders have pushed the spec back into oblivion unless something isn't done about it. They gave every one 2 stacks and overcompensated on the nerfs.  

I am not a happy camper. 

People that didn't already have the shoulders should have seen a buff.

However, in raid scenario you're comparing your own numbers to other classes. Anything can look like an excessive nerf if many other classes get better buffs. I haven't raided yet to see it, but my numbers on the dummy look pretty similar. The same thing happened when 7.1.5 came out; my numbers were consistent but ranking in raid dropped a lot. At that time they added a buff about a week later. I don't know what they have planned, but I wouldn't be surprised if they want Marksmanship to be the stronger spec.

[Meiku 1]

I'm down over 200k consistently. I've tried multiple talent switches and gear swaps. The way Wild Call works now, to me, makes the flow feel a lot less fluid. I don't like this anymore.

[Luthixx 138]

I don't know what everyone else is doing so differently then, because running the crit/stomp/OWTP build last night gave me some awesome results. Check to make sure your stat priority is right if you use this build though.

11 hours ago, Banard said:

We got nerfed not buff, especially compared to other classes

Yes and no; if you're still running DF build you'll have a noticeable dps loss - the uptime on BW was severely nerfed and you have a lot more downtime. The buffs to our abilities were awesome, but not enough to make up for that uptime reduction. Have you tried crit/stomp/OWTP? Might be surprised at the difference.

Also have a look at all the BM changes - the artifact traits got nerfed and so did our BW uptime, but there were multiple buffs across the board. KC & CS both got a 20% damage increase, as well as the 6% aura buff. If you feel your dps is lower compared to your guildies, they probably just got buffed - some of my guild's top dps got a nice buff, and our frost DK switched to unholy and is pulling some awesome numbers.

3 hours ago, Meiku said:

The way Wild Call works now, to me, makes the flow feel a lot less fluid. I don't like this anymore.

What do you mean by the way it works now? It's not been changed at all, you just have two stacks of Dire Beast - the only thing that changed is how much cooldown reduction you get from it. 

18 hours ago, Trillium said:

I did have a question about managing the DF buff, it seems good to stack them but I've also been advised to not use the 2 charges in succession, at once. Does that mean just use the procs as they come, keeping DF on CD, using each charge as soon as it regenerates instead of holding onto 2 and using them at once, effectively stretching em out so you have longer uptime instead of a shorter uptime but with more stacks?

Refer to my comment above yours, don't use them in succession - try to get as much uptime on the buff as possible, and build up slowly to 2-3 charges rather than straight away, better to have a few more seconds of one stack and be able to build it up to 3 than it is to just spam 2 in a row.

[Sharknad0 67]

Luthixx is 100% correct. Here are my sims (and I can say that my in game testing is reflecting the same):

DF / BF Build with 84% Mastery, 18% Haste, 26% Crit = 972,508 DPS

Stomp / OWTP build with 72% Mastery, 16% Haste, and 33% Crit = 1,000,800 DPS

Not a huge difference, but enough to be worth going for. I also prefer the play style of OWtP. The constant procs make for a quick and constant feel.

[Banard 61]

18 hours ago, Luthixx said:

Yes and no;

The answer is yes. Your welcome to talk about another talent or this and that. 

but over 13,000 BM parses since 7.2.5 hit and there is enough evidence to state "our damage compared to other classes have been significantly nerfed". 

The guide on this website don't give me warm and tingly feelings about teir 20 set bonus. 

@ the moment there is strong evidence suggesting we need a buff. 

[Banard 61]

1 hour ago, Sharknad0 said:

Luthixx is 100% correct. Here are my sims (and I can say that my in game testing is reflecting the same):

DF / BF Build with 84% Mastery, 18% Haste, 26% Crit = 972,508 DPS

Stomp / OWTP build with 72% Mastery, 16% Haste, and 33% Crit = 1,000,800 DPS

Not a huge difference, but enough to be worth going for. I also prefer the play style of OWtP. The constant procs make for a quick and constant feel.

I don't care about sims, i care about the statistical relevant data over 13,000 BM parses. 

[Sharknad0 67]

1 hour ago, Banard said:

I don't care about sims, i care about the statistical relevant data over 13,000 BM parses. 

I care about what I see in game when I play, not what other people do.

[Conso 1]

I had gotten the shoulders about a month or so ago so I have had practice getting used to 2 charges DF. Personally i use one charge at start with BW, then do back and forth CS-KC a few times and hit it again (usually when I see the charge at about 75% to being recharged). I also try to make sure to always have the charges rolling never sit at 2. I dont use stomp, Simcraft has it as a DPS loss least for me for single target. If you are focus starved you could try changing the lvl 15 talent Dire Stable for the extra focus. My hunter is 899, 27 crit, 14 haste, 79 mastery unbuffed and in a heroic court I hit 2mil burst when usually it was 1.5mil. Its just a heroic dungeon boss I realize that (waiting for raid night fri and sat to get a true feel for the changes) but in raids I usually parse for 80% for my ilvl bracket, usually a fight or two in the 90's. Having 2 charges does feel weird, so just practice with it some and your numbers will climb back up.

[Luthixx 138]

9 hours ago, Conso said:

I had gotten the shoulders about a month or so ago so I have had practice getting used to 2 charges DF. Personally i use one charge at start with BW, then do back and forth CS-KC a few times and hit it again (usually when I see the charge at about 75% to being recharged). I also try to make sure to always have the charges rolling never sit at 2. I dont use stomp, Simcraft has it as a DPS loss least for me for single target. If you are focus starved you could try changing the lvl 15 talent Dire Stable for the extra focus. My hunter is 899, 27 crit, 14 haste, 79 mastery unbuffed and in a heroic court I hit 2mil burst when usually it was 1.5mil. Its just a heroic dungeon boss I realize that (waiting for raid night fri and sat to get a true feel for the changes) but in raids I usually parse for 80% for my ilvl bracket, usually a fight or two in the 90's. Having 2 charges does feel weird, so just practice with it some and your numbers will climb back up.

I ran some sims after finally updating simcraft, and the stomp build was ahead by about 15k. I don't know what everyone else is doing, but my sims alone are 60k higher than they were pre-patch and my dps usually reflects that. 

Conso, just to check, are you running OWTP with DF or just the usual DF build? Both of the builds were a dps increase for me but just wanted to see why you weren't trying the zoo spec.

[Ciatyl 0]

Greetings,

short Question to Luthixx. I just checked you on the armory / warcraftlogs. Two small questions:

1) Will you stay on 34% Crit, 9 % Haste, 77 % Mastery?
2) Did you have any clue about a WA for the Chest Buff / Stacks ( got mine this morning and it is horrible to follow the CS stacks )

Thanks and happy hunting

KR

Ciatyl

[Luthixx 138]

1 hour ago, Ciatyl said:

Greetings,

short Question to Luthixx. I just checked you on the armory / warcraftlogs. Two small questions:

1) Will you stay on 34% Crit, 9 % Haste, 77 % Mastery?
2) Did you have any clue about a WA for the Chest Buff / Stacks ( got mine this morning and it is horrible to follow the CS stacks )

Thanks and happy hunting

KR

Ciatyl

Hey hey!

1) Currently with my stat priority, that's just what I've achieved with my current setup. I only just changed out the bracers for the chest. Those stats are doing pretty good for me, but given the tomb trinkets I'll end up getting Cradle of Anguish and getting a bit more haste from that.

2) I'll look into a WA for you and get back to you when I get the chance, but realistically the buff lasts for 8 secs and you should be using CS within that time frame normally anyway. I haven't had to find a way to track it since I find myself using CS quite frequently anyway. 

Here's hoping my next legendary is the new ring, I'm in love with the zoo build and would hate to go back to Dire Frenzy.

[KratosSM 2]

I toss in just to put a little by my experience :

- Stated that i had only the time to get in raid and not even  a single minute of test about new stuffs , i found interesting this build u can check in this log :

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/11#boss=1863&class=Hunter&spec=BeastMastery&bracket=23&partition=3 

Etreus Mythic fight , and think that i had to go melee too tohelp tnk soak dmg with other melee , so i wasnt free in none of the phases . 

After 7.2.5. i was 2nd in my bracket with my sitty ( jk ) legendaries , still must find shoulders xD and ofc now aiming for chest and eventually ring  .

I find rotation very fluent , never focus starving , prolly focus dumping , and this enw feeling with shoulder effect is awsome . 

Only thing i swapped by the best is to get as much crit asi  can with mastery ignoring completely haste .

 

A question : is still 865 BI trinket better than 905 Foci ? ( cant swap convergence cause of bracers , till i get another lgendary )

@Luthixx

Ty ! 

[Eyeroll 5]

40 minutes ago, KratosSM said:

A question : is still 865 BI trinket better than 905 Foci ? ( cant swap convergence cause of bracers , till i get another lgendary )

 

According to the chart, Foci at 905 vs 865 BTI is probably slightly ahead.  I guess I am used to BTI play style,  The Foci didn't proc very much and the randomness of the buffs changes how I should play based on it.  Just my 0.02.

Might try it again now that I have concordance.

[Maxiedaxie 1]

On 6/14/2017 at 6:30 AM, Banard said:

We got nerfed not buff, especially compared to other classes. Been wiping on mythic guldan for weeks and I am use to being between #1 and #4 in dps...2 BMs and 2 DK were fighting it out for the top. Now i am struggling to stay in the middle of the pack and to mnay pulls find myself on the bottom. There is huge difference right down to the feel of the spec. Shit last night felt slow. 

The spec overall needs a buff, all the qq from people without the shoulders have pushed the spec back into oblivion unless something isn't done about it. They gave every one 2 stacks and overcompensated on the nerfs.  

I am not a happy camper. 

I actually agree 100% with this post, overall Bm was nerfed  even with the most recent sim they were around 13-15th on the charts  to now after the patch being in the bottom 5  I will include the pre-patch sim and after patch sim and also the logs for the week before on mythic Guldan progression to last night which was a shit show on my DPS, for all but one of our attempt I went back to the old DF build and it did not even help either , all the pulls beside one were the stomp build from last night .

Before patch sim

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#sample=7&dataset=100

Updated yesterday sim 

https://images.discordapp.net/attachments/233915177685352448/325014792962048002/garbagedps.JPG

2nd link is data from warcraft logs from 1 day after patch is out as seen BM is back bottom

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/233915177685352448/324670560099631117/Warcraft_Logs_-_Combat_Analysis_for_Warcraft.png

 

Mythic Guldan progression log the week before patch 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/cM49RgYLWNzGyBbt/

Mythic Guldan Progression after patch was live

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hwbmMvj3KFWAfNTy/

the nerfs are real

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Maxiedaxie

[Khallid 110]

7 hours ago, Luthixx said:

I ran some sims after finally updating simcraft, and the stomp build was ahead by about 15k. I don't know what everyone else is doing, but my sims alone are 60k higher than they were pre-patch and my dps usually reflects that. 

Conso, just to check, are you running OWTP with DF or just the usual DF build? Both of the builds were a dps increase for me but just wanted to see why you weren't trying the zoo spec.

Your dps went up a lot more because you didn't have the Mantle of Command pre-patch 7.2.5 Luthixx. For those of us who had it the ptch was a big nerf to the DF/BF build and a tiny buff with the Crit/OWTP build, which is actually below the 6% base damage buff they gave to BM.

 

On 6/14/2017 at 7:31 PM, Luthixx said:

Also have a look at all the BM changes - the artifact traits got nerfed and so did our BW uptime, but there were multiple buffs across the board. KC & CS both got a 20% damage increase, as well as the 6% aura buff. If you feel your dps is lower compared to your guildies, they probably just got buffed - some of my guild's top dps got a nice buff, and our frost DK switched to unholy and is pulling some awesome numbers.

Where are you getting that Kill Command was buffed? I haven't seen that anywhere, nor I have seen it hit for higher numbers. Both Jaws of Thunder and Pack leader got nerfed, which decreases the damage of Kill Command.

 

36 minutes ago, Maxiedaxie said:

I actually agree 100% with this post, overall Bm was nerfed  even with the most recent sim they were around 13-15th on the charts  to now after the patch being in the bottom 5  I will include the pre-patch sim and after patch sim and also the logs for the week before on mythic Guldan progression to last night which was a shit show on my DPS, for all but one of our attempt I went back to the old DF build and it did not even help either , all the pulls beside one were the stomp build from last night .

I've usually found the dps charts to be unreliable except for the very highest-end players. From my experience, it's relatively easy to get high parses as a BM hunter because we don't lose dps from movement and we have the easiest rotation in the game, so you can hit very close to your max damage consistently and reliably. But the charts compare classes at the same parse percentile, which is skewed down for BM, because the same parse percentile means a worse BM player. In practice BM performs pretty well, unless every single player in your group is a hardcore overpowered master.

 

I personally don't dislike the OWTP playstile but it's a lot more RNG-based, so real numbers will vary significantly from pull to pull. The simulation gives you an average of thousands of runs.

[Maxiedaxie 1]

1 minute ago, Khallid said:

 

 

I've usually found the dps charts to be unreliable except for the very highest-end players. From my experience, it's relatively easy to get high parses as a BM hunter because we don't lose dps from movement and we have the easiest rotation in the game, so you can hit very close to your max damage consistently and reliably. But the charts compare classes at the same parse percentile, which is skewed down for BM, because the same parse percentile means a worse BM player. In practice BM performs pretty well, unless every single player in your group is a hardcore overpowered master.

 

I personally don't dislike the OWTP playstile but it's a lot more RNG-based, so real numbers will vary significantly from pull to pull. The simulation gives you an average of thousands of runs.

6

I agree with that statement of yours, which was why I included my own logs on Guldan progression pre-patch and after patch, from the naked eye you can tell that I have fallen from being middle to top 3-5 while being lower ilvl, I have fallen way down to middle/most of the time in the bottom, While I understand that many classes got buffs, at the end of the day beside numbers /ranking wise just from my own logs my numbers are lower than before  the patch hit.  I'm Lil bunn fufu btw the only bm hunter in the raid.

[Luthixx 138]

2 hours ago, KratosSM said:

I toss in just to put a little by my experience :

- Stated that i had only the time to get in raid and not even  a single minute of test about new stuffs , i found interesting this build u can check in this log :

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/11#boss=1863&class=Hunter&spec=BeastMastery&bracket=23&partition=3 

Etreus Mythic fight , and think that i had to go melee too tohelp tnk soak dmg with other melee , so i wasnt free in none of the phases . 

After 7.2.5. i was 2nd in my bracket with my sitty ( jk ) legendaries , still must find shoulders xD and ofc now aiming for chest and eventually ring  .

I find rotation very fluent , never focus starving , prolly focus dumping , and this enw feeling with shoulder effect is awsome . 

Only thing i swapped by the best is to get as much crit asi  can with mastery ignoring completely haste .

 

A question : is still 865 BI trinket better than 905 Foci ? ( cant swap convergence cause of bracers , till i get another lgendary )

@Luthixx

Ty ! 

Nicely done! 905 Foci would be better than 865 BTI for sure. 

23 minutes ago, Khallid said:

Your dps went up a lot more because you didn't have the Mantle of Command pre-patch 7.2.5 Luthixx. For those of us who had it the ptch was a big nerf to the DF/BF build and a tiny buff with the Crit/OWTP build, which is actually below the 6% base damage buff they gave to BM.

 

Where are you getting that Kill Command was buffed? I haven't seen that anywhere, nor I have seen it hit for higher numbers. Both Jaws of Thunder and Pack leader got nerfed, which decreases the damage of Kill Command.

 

I've usually found the dps charts to be unreliable except for the very highest-end players. From my experience, it's relatively easy to get high parses as a BM hunter because we don't lose dps from movement and we have the easiest rotation in the game, so you can hit very close to your max damage consistently and reliably. But the charts compare classes at the same parse percentile, which is skewed down for BM, because the same parse percentile means a worse BM player. In practice BM performs pretty well, unless every single player in your group is a hardcore overpowered master.

 

I personally don't dislike the OWTP playstile but it's a lot more RNG-based, so real numbers will vary significantly from pull to pull. The simulation gives you an average of thousands of runs.

•  Cobra Shot   A quick shot causing [450%[540% * ((min(Level - 1, 19) * 12 + 112) / 340)] Physical damage.
•  Kill Command   Give the command to kill, causing your pet to savagely deal [1.5 * (1 + (Ranged attack power * 33.6)) * 1 * (0.5 + min(Level, 20) * 0.025) * (1 + Versatility)] Physical damage to its target. 25 yard range.40 yd range.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=263129/all-the-class-and-artifact-trait-changes-in-patch-7-2-5

 

The changes were listed above. Both abilities there got a reasonable buff, but with the massive decrease in our artifact traits that took a little bit off it.

 

The only reason BF/DF got nerfed is because the changes to our spec are being based around T20 set bonuses, not T19. Yes, for the next few weeks until you get into ToS and gear up you will not experience the same level of dps.

 

There's literally no reason to complain about the state of BM this week - T19 4pc was nerfed so hard because they didn't want us keeping that through ToS. 

 

Your dps will go back up again when you've got the gear that these changes were based around.