The new sub, thoughts?

[Zipp3r 0]

So the rework has been done and so far I'm finding the spec really fun to play but I have a question: is Outlaw still the best option or Sub surpassed?

 

Another question, how the hell am I supposed to do AoE dps as sub? Just hit 110 yesterday and I leveled all the way as Outlaw... still learning :)

 

Edit: for PVE

Edited June 15, 2017 by Zipp3r

[demonardvark 556]

Can't tell you about appropriate rogue dps heirarchys but i can answer the second question

Sub basically has a switch you flip, saying I want to do single target or I want to do AOE. Basically it boils down to what do you do during shadow dance? Once you get to about 3 ish targets you basically spam shuriken storm. In addition to this you maintain your symbols of death and maintain nightblade on higher priority targets. 

So, in many ways aoe is simply use shuriken storm instead of backstab and follow rotation. The only issue is you are spending your charges of shadow dance. So, if you want to switch and now do leet single target damage you are kinda SOL until you get another charge. So you can do single target or aoe but have to make the decision which one you are wanting :)

[Zipp3r 0]

6 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

Can't tell you about appropriate rogue dps heirarchys but i can answer the second question

Sub basically has a switch you flip, saying I want to do single target or I want to do AOE. Basically it boils down to what do you do during shadow dance? Once you get to about 3 ish targets you basically spam shuriken storm. In addition to this you maintain your symbols of death and maintain nightblade on higher priority targets. 

So, in many ways aoe is simply use shuriken storm instead of backstab and follow rotation. The only issue is you are spending your charges of shadow dance. So, if you want to switch and now do leet single target damage you are kinda SOL until you get another charge. So you can do single target or aoe but have to make the decision which one you are wanting :)

Thats what I'ven doing, shuriken storm followed by a nightblade or eviscerate if the target already have the dot since shuriken buffs the eviscerate dmg by a LOT

[demonardvark 556]

Just now, Zipp3r said:

Thats what I'ven doing, shuriken storm followed by a nightblade or eviscerate if the target already have the dot since shuriken buffs the eviscerate dmg by a LOT

Yup thats about it :D

It's in someways a simpler AOE rotation then some specs get, but I like it, its a nice medium difficulty, like yes you sorta just spam one ability but then you need to keep up buffs/intelligently spend combo points. so there is room to improve and git gud/ show off  XD

[Kryptknight 4]

I'm really enjoying it so far. The damage boost has been really nice and the burst damage aspect of the spec makes it a bit more flexible than Sin during add encounters. While I enjoy Outlaw with the changes, my personally feeling from playing the two specs is that Sub seems to be the way to go with ST fights. 

[demonardvark 556]

26 minutes ago, Kryptknight said:

I'm really enjoying it so far. The damage boost has been really nice and the burst damage aspect of the spec makes it a bit more flexible than Sin during add encounters. While I enjoy Outlaw with the changes, my personally feeling from playing the two specs is that Sub seems to be the way to go with ST fights. 

My issue with Outlaw is less about dps performance and more about actual like.. fun. I'm thrilled slice n dice is viable now but after trying it out, Outlaw is almost painfully boring to me. I didn't like fishing for the buffs with Dem Bones but the spec almost feels naked with out it. Sin is fine still its just slow to me like feral. So, def sticking with Sub, its been my favorite so far and the changes made it feel much better imo. 

[Kryptknight 4]

52 minutes ago, demonardvark said:

My issue with Outlaw is less about dps performance and more about actual like.. fun. I'm thrilled slice n dice is viable now but after trying it out, Outlaw is almost painfully boring to me. I didn't like fishing for the buffs with Dem Bones but the spec almost feels naked with out it. Sin is fine still its just slow to me like feral. So, def sticking with Sub, its been my favorite so far and the changes made it feel much better imo. 

Definitely agree about Outlaw, particularly in a raid setting, though I haven't used SnD yet so I'm not sure if that would change my opinion. I do really enjoy Outlaw in M+ for most affixes, but I'm almost certain that I'm going to stick with Sub through ToS. I'm a bit burned out on Sin as I played it almost exclusively since December and I agree that the spec is slow. 

[Carrn 284]

4 hours ago, Zipp3r said:

So the rework has been done and so far I'm finding the spec really fun to play but I have a question: is Outlaw still the best option or Sub surpassed?

 

Another question, how the hell am I supposed to do AoE dps as sub? Just hit 110 yesterday and I leveled all the way as Outlaw... still learning :)

 

Edit: for PVE

All of the specs perform close enough together that you can play any of them that you want

My personal choice is Sub, because its toolkit is the most varied and adaptable 

[Bunbohue 2]

I play sub because @Carrn does. Also I've barely tried any other specs and now I'm too scared of change. I think it's been 4 years since I tried sin outside solo content. 

I liked sub before the changes, and I still like it. I especially like that you can keep a somewhat similar playstyle to the pre 7.2.5 using enveloping shadows. Or  I can go for a more bursty SD phase with dark powers and dfa. SoD still feels weird, after 8 months of 98% uptime.

[Carrn 284]

7 hours ago, Bunbohue said:

I play sub because @Carrn does. Also I've barely tried any other specs and now I'm too scared of change. I think it's been 4 years since I tried sin outside solo content. 

I liked sub before the changes, and I still like it. I especially like that you can keep a somewhat similar playstyle to the pre 7.2.5 using enveloping shadows. Or  I can go for a more bursty SD phase with dark powers and dfa. SoD still feels weird, after 8 months of 98% uptime.

I'm flattered lol

Tbh if you play Sub decently, Sin is really easy so feel free to change if you like. 

I'm playing Dark Shadow (with Master of Subtlety and DfA) and I love it. Feels very smooth, is still consistent, and like you said the huge crits are fun af.

I agree about SoD though, I still find myself pressing it all the time while out questing, or waiting for a mob spawn lol

[Bunbohue 2]

I'd never leave sub. I started playing it competetively during cata to prove that its a viable pve spec. I fell in love with it then.

Which tier 2 talent do you go for? I'm really liking shadow focus to make sure I'm never starved during my sod window. However I'm considering nightstalker for even burstier windows. 

[Carrn 284]

3 hours ago, Bunbohue said:

I'd never leave sub. I started playing it competetively during cata to prove that its a viable pve spec. I fell in love with it then.

Which tier 2 talent do you go for? I'm really liking shadow focus to make sure I'm never starved during my sod window. However I'm considering nightstalker for even burstier windows. 

I've played both, but I like Nightstalker more. I don't feel like I'm starved for Energy, especially with hitting SoD and getting Energy back

[Bunbohue 2]

Do you have any suggestions to how the opener should look with and without dfa? Also taking shoulders into account. Talents 111001X, being dfa or mos?

Maybe also the ideal symbols of death window rotation? Assuming the same build.

[Carrn 284]

6 hours ago, Bunbohue said:

Do you have any suggestions to how the opener should look with and without dfa? Also taking shoulders into account. Talents 111001X, being dfa or mos?

Maybe also the ideal symbols of death window rotation? Assuming the same build.

I actually play 1120013. I don't feel like I'm lacking Energy, so I play DfA because it offers some very nice damage stacking with the combination damage from Dark Shadow, SoD, and Master of Subtlety. 

The only thing that I do which I don't see many people do right now is play Anticipation instead of Deeper Stratagem. My main reason for this is the Tier 19 set bonus which causes some overflow, but it also lets me smash 2x Evis and 2x Shadowstrike (or 1x DfA, 1x Shadowstike, and 1x Evis) inside a Shadow Dance window incredibly easily (sometimes 3x Evis if I get a Shadow Techniques proc at the right time).

I'm not sure about how much this really impacts DPS over the course of a full fight because it might actually be worse, but it's a ridiculous amount of damage on-demand and seems to work out just fine. I only have 1 raid night with a Rogue playing the more standard spec to compare myself to, but I was competitive with him and my legendaries are far from ideal. I'll continue playing this way and experiment with it, but it seems functional. I'll hopefully have a post up in the next few days which talks more about the Dark Shadow build, since that isn't really covered in the main guide, and is long enough that I think it should be a whole post on its own

[Septic7 0]

16 hours ago, Carrn said:

I actually play 1120013. I don't feel like I'm lacking Energy, so I play DfA because it offers some very nice damage stacking with the combination damage from Dark Shadow, SoD, and Master of Subtlety. 

The only thing that I do which I don't see many people do right now is play Anticipation instead of Deeper Stratagem. My main reason for this is the Tier 19 set bonus which causes some overflow, but it also lets me smash 2x Evis and 2x Shadowstrike (or 1x DfA, 1x Shadowstike, and 1x Evis) inside a Shadow Dance window incredibly easily (sometimes 3x Evis if I get a Shadow Techniques proc at the right time).

I'm not sure about how much this really impacts DPS over the course of a full fight because it might actually be worse, but it's a ridiculous amount of damage on-demand and seems to work out just fine. I only have 1 raid night with a Rogue playing the more standard spec to compare myself to, but I was competitive with him and my legendaries are far from ideal. I'll continue playing this way and experiment with it, but it seems functional. I'll hopefully have a post up in the next few days which talks more about the Dark Shadow build, since that isn't really covered in the main guide, and is long enough that I think it should be a whole post on its own

I see many to choose mark of death with dark shadow build. Raidbots and simulationcraft and ask mr robot mark of death sims too high . I read your guide and mark of death you said that is not a good choice. I m so confused can u help me?

Edited June 26, 2017 by Septic7

[Septic7 0]

Ι see many to choose mark of death with dark shadow build. Raidbots and simulationcraft and ask mr robot mark of death sims too high . I read your guide and mark of death you said that is not a good choice. I m so confused can u help me?