wow ToS Mythic Race Day 12: KJ Overtuned, Limit Quits

[Starym 3,800]

 

It's day 12 and not that much has changed since day 8, with only Exorsus having managed to power through Fallen Avatar and join Method on 8/9, even with the recent hotfix nerfing the bosses Dark MarkDark Mark ability by 25% and having it not target healers anymore.

It's day 12 and not that much has changed since day 8, with only Exorsus having managed to power through Fallen Avatar and join Method on 8/9, even with the recent hotfix nerfing the bosses Dark Mark ability by 25% and having it not target healers anymore. It's a little unclear as to when exactly the fix went into effect so it's possible both of this week's kills (Method's re-kill and Exorsus subsequent World 2nd) were done after said fix. It took Method 2 days to re-kill Avatar, even with the winning strategy in-hand, with Exorsus getting him only 2 hours after that. Since then it's been very quiet on the Avatar front and no other guild has managed to down him, even after 500+ wipes in the case of Asian top guild Alpha and, more importantly, no other guilds has gained access to the final boss of the Tomb, Kil'jaeden.

Now, it appears the big red fellow is getting to be a bit of a problem for both guilds currently on him, as they've had some less than flattering words to share on the matter:

I wish Blizzard were a lot faster with tuning, some mechanics/timings in fights are just ridiculous - demotivating to feel fights untested

— Scott McMillan (@Methodsco) July 8, 2017

Feeling ourselves internal QA testers after so smooth NH raid is really underwhelming. ?

— Exorsus (@ExorsusWoW) July 8, 2017

Yes, the speed of needed adjustments hasn't been the best this tier - days have been wasted. https://t.co/9ctYygNLdg

— Scott McMillan (@Methodsco) July 8, 2017

And then the conversation went on to specifics, namely the soaking mechanic present on a lot of bosses:

They don't call it the "Tomb of Soak-geras" for nothing!
8 of 9 Bosses have soak mechanics. merp merp.

— Bay (@FinalBossTV) July 9, 2017

Yeah they saved the best soaks for last ? https://t.co/RNpJC83OQz

— Scott McMillan (@Methodsco) July 9, 2017

While to some this may just sound like random complaining, remember that there wasn't any of this type of chatter back in Nighthold on Gul'dan, so there may really be something to it this time around.

In other news we've had US/OC No.1 Limit suddenly drop out of the race, as the previous bans they'd received over real-money sell runs and a few other players quitting, in addition to Fallen Avatar's difficulty and other factors seem to have put an end to their domination of the US/OC scene.

Regarding the Tomb of Sargeras race and the issues we've faced #Warcraft pic.twitter.com/99RVR5VvOU

— Limit (@limitguild) July 9, 2017

And that's about it for today, as Method and Exorsus bang their heads against Kil'jaeden's wall and around 29 other guilds try to get Fallen Avatar down, the Tomb of Sargeras might see a third reset with the final boss staying alive. There are still a couple of days for KJ to fall, but based on the guilds' tweets that doesn't seem to be likely. As always, for live and up-to-date race coverage, check out Method.gg.

[Yridaa 490]

They (Both method AND Exorsus) really needed the rogues for the immunity for FA and apparently even that isn't enough for KJ.

Forcing guilds to rely only on immunities to even have a very slim chance of beating a boss means you rule out half the specs in the game.

 

I am all for "This class mechanic is really useful for boss X Y and Z but not for A B or C" but not if: 1. it is an absolute requirement and 2. you need a metric ton of it.

(+ the speed boost of course for quick positioning)

People that main other melee's like DK's, ferals etc. probably feel shafted in the race.

 

It's sad. Blizzard can't beat the content with their own QA teams and still deems it passable to put in overtuned bosses. Archimonde in WoD was one such boss where they nerfed 4 or 5 abilities 3x over to make it even slightly doable. It's getting a bit ridiculous.

[Maruken 31]

So because you can't roflstomp bosses in under 2 weeks anymore it's "overtuned".

Edited July 9, 2017 by Maruken

[Ninypoo 4]

23 minutes ago, Maruken said:

So because you can't roflstomp bosses in under 2 weeks anymore it's "overtuned".

It's not about roflstomping, the abilities the boss is using, that are supposed to be nullified, avoided, immunized, etc. Cannot be.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Ninypoo

[Yridaa 490]

40 minutes ago, Maruken said:

So because you can't roflstomp bosses in under 2 weeks anymore it's "overtuned".

You can call it two weeks, but they probably wipe on bosses per day as often as you do per month, if not more.

 

I consider myself semi-hardcore with wiping ~40 times per boss per raid day and I raid only 3-4x per week. It took Method and Exorsus 400+ attempts for FA. You do the math how long it'd take me to take it down pre-nerf. Also I consider their guilds to be far more professional and coordinated than mine. That's not an insult to my guild, that's a compliment to theirs.

 

And trust me, these guys aren't roflstomping these bosses. They have to be at the top of the skill ceiling and bring the best possible class combinations to even do this. This is a luxury (By extreme effort) only the top 40-50 guilds in the world have. If it takes these guilds this long to "roflstomp" after 400-500 wipes with their ideal setups and coordination, you will not even see the face of Kil'jaeden on Mythic before the 30% nerf sets in if Blizzard doesn't tune it.

 

Unless you're one of the top guilds member, of course.

[Ninypoo 4]

And yet in the next expansion we'll probably be clearing this in questing gear with five people...

[Dantalian 20]

Sad to hear the words like "over-tuned" from top guilds... Its like everyone forgot that  classic raid even without difficulties we not cleared for half a year and so on. As my opinion this shows that they used-to easy mod that mythic is cleared in previous tier sets and so on. And like everyone forgot the Trial of Valor raid already??

I mean no offence to them, but this behavior from them shows that they are not anything good from mid-range guilds who simply do not spend that much time for raiding.

There was more respectful way to say that, like this "KJ is hell of a lot stronger than everything before, and we think there might be a problem with it", but we have what we have.

"Damn, shame..." - Tychus Findlay

[MrEdren 114]

'Whaaa overtuned too hard we got banned etc'

404 sympathy not found. If you're so hellbent on winning an imaginary fight before anyone else, you don't get to complain about it not being easy.  And then they wonder why nobody can stand them. Get stuffed, Limit.  And yes that included precious Furty too. 

[MrEdren 114]

Also - nobody calls it Soak-geras. That doesn't even fit 

[Worldcrusher 3]

Folks, these guilds are the best in the world.  There's a difference between merely hard (which is what these players thrive on) and unpassable.  I'm sure that, in time, Method would get this boss down.  But if doing so requires intense class stacking or some other cheesy/gimmicky way to accomplish it, then the fight is overtuned or broken.  

 

Also, the reason some old raids took up to half a year to finish is because a.) the raid was released before max level was reached (i.e. at the beginning of the game/expansion), and b.) coordinating 40 people is quite different from coordinating 20 people.

 

Just my two cents.

[Derivan 4]

1 hour ago, Worldcrusher said:

Folks, these guilds are the best in the world.  There's a difference between merely hard (which is what these players thrive on) and unpassable.  I'm sure that, in time, Method would get this boss down.  But if doing so requires intense class stacking or some other cheesy/gimmicky way to accomplish it, then the fight is overtuned or broken.  

 

Also, the reason some old raids took up to half a year to finish is because a.) the raid was released before max level was reached (i.e. at the beginning of the game/expansion), and b.) coordinating 40 people is quite different from coordinating 20 people.

 

Just my two cents.

Don't forget the attunements that took a few months and the huge amount of cunsumables and resistance fear to be farmed before even stepping in the raid.

[Laragon 269]

4 hours ago, Dantalian said:

Its like everyone forgot that  classic raid even without difficulties we not cleared for half a year and so on. As my opinion this shows that they used-to easy mod that mythic is cleared in previous tier sets and so on. And like everyone forgot the Trial of Valor raid already??

This was a COMPLETELY different time in the game. Do you even remember how hard it was to get an epic? It was brutal. Let alone you had to "earn" access to every raid which took a lot of time. Raids were never even completed with 40 people actively on the boss unless it was that top guild racing world firsts.

Most people in the game didn't even have an epic mount until BC dropped because gold was so painfully hard to come by. I'd be curious a stat of people that even cleared all wings of DM let alone entered Naxx. Also remember there was literally zero group finding mechanics other than spamming chat and no cross server information. Even queueing for a BG could take a half hour depending on your battle group and time of day, and that at least had a system!

If anything, it shows these raids are a lot harder, just by the sheer number of people and times that they are attempting and failing. Their gear is as min-maxed as it gets and as perfect a situation as they could ever be set for, and still can't get it done.

[Starym 3,800]

The thing people seem to be missing here is arbitrary difficulty. Aka there's a huge difference between a genuinely hard boss that requires every sinlge member to play perfectly has tons of mechanics to avoid and a steep dps requirement and a simply bugged or overtuned boss that you literally CAN NOT kill until a) Blizzard nerf it b) Blizzard fix the bugs and/or c) you get AT LEAST x amount of item level.

I've actually played in a World First guild and let me tell you, smashing your head against Kael'thas before Black Temple was released wasn't fun. It wasn't challenging. It wasn't any sort of race or competition or "who's best" either. Blizzard simply did not have BT ready and so they made Kael literally impossible (funny story, it turns out a guild actually could get passed the bugged out phase using basically cheats - a spammed macro that had no reason to do anything - but even they couldn't kill the guy even with that) so they wouldn't have to explain why we can't go to BT.

Someone mentioned half a year to kill a boss? I like that ideas too, but the reality was ridiculous - Ragnaros stayed alive for one reason and one reason only: he was literally impossible. He only died after one or two huge nerfs that basically flipped a switch from "no, this is not killable" to "yes".

Now I don't know if Kil'jaeden is any of these things, but I'll go ahead and trust the two guilds that are actually on him, as they really didn't complain as much in Nighthold (obv they didn't in EN and ToV either, but for very different reasons :D ). If KJ truly is impossible in order for Blizzard to deflate the "lol raids are so ez now Blizz!" people, that's not ok and it's not a way to tune your raids. If he isn't and it's simply a matter of skill then fair enough. Oh and one more thing, just a pet peeve I have - encounters that require a ridiculous amount of a specific class to even be possible are bullshit. That is all.

[Starym 3,800]

Oh and just to mention I actually do like the way Fallen Avatar is tuned atm, he's clearly killable, has even been nerfed and there's still only 2 guilds that got him down.

[Yridaa 490]

2 hours ago, Starym said:

Oh and just to mention I actually do like the way Fallen Avatar is tuned atm, he's clearly killable, has even been nerfed and there's still only 2 guilds that got him down.

It may still turn out that you need to stack 5 of one class (Rogue) in which case I'd personally still call it overtuned. If that can be overcome with ilvl or whatever, then sure, but these guys are already nearing 930-933 average raid-wide.

[Rossblackblood 0]

From a game mechanic perspective I am assuming this sucks really bad. Personally I haven't done better then a normal raid and I am more casual and into lore.

And personally the 'overtuning' of kiljaeden is slightly entertaining for me. kil'jaeden is sargarus's main man, and when we are fighting him, its obvious its perma death, full power jaeden.

[Vayra 12]

In the end, the guilds still in the race will have the final word over whether KJ really is overtuned or not, amirite?

[Zentris 0]

Couldn't Blizzard hire 20 raiders under NDA or something to sit in their office when testing content? I know those 20 would have the advantage, but i mean really there could be some parameters made that would differ it from the live game when it releases. Just throwing shots at the dark, I never really understood going on PTR and testing 30-50% of a bosses health b4 it annihilates your whole group. Not really thorough testing for how fast Blizzard wants to pump out content now. This isn't me complaining because the game's gonna be played either way. There has to be a solution though other than "git gud sorry about your ~900 attempts." These raiders understand what progress and hard work is, they aren't being whiny. I'm sure there's legitimate concerns that LFR babbies don't even know about yet want to mouth off about people who are way better than them. 

[Valks 2,375]

On 13/07/2017 at 6:01 PM, Zentris said:

Couldn't Blizzard hire 20 raiders under NDA or something to sit in their office when testing content?

How do you choose the 20, though? Are they the ones that are friends with Blizzard employees? Are they a single guild that can no longer join the race? Are they from different guilds and, if so, doesn't that then completely remove the idea of having different tactics being discovered. What about things like geographical issues? Exorsus has members that don't speak English so, could they be brought in? How do you stop members of guilds just telling people in the privacy of their guild voice chat? How do you allow any new blood into the race if the first raiders come from a certain set group of guilds? If you start to go further down the rankings to slightly less competitive guilds, are they really equipped to give feedback?

There's a lot of issues that will accompany something like this.