BM DPS going downhill?

[Swerrve 0]

Okay, stop me if you've heard this one before...  Actually, please don't!  I'd love a little insight as someone new to Wow, PUG'ing through Heroic ToS.

Here's my BM: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/dalaran/swerrve  I usually swap leggos btwn Roar, Prydaz and Roots. Also have Sephuz sitting around. Have full T20, between 900-915 on each piece.

Tinkering between stomp and DF, I'm just beginning to adjust to the latter. Got auras, and working on keeping stacks up.

The thing that's bothering me is I'm ocassionally doing 65-75% of my DPS sims, and I swear I started dropping DPS at a recent point in gearing up and playing w/specs.  

I know my opening rotations, my consumables, etc.  For the most part, I'm stacking DF and trying not to starve/cap focus. I do my best to dump-cast during BW, but I don't go seriously out of my way to do so.  I'm certain I'm ignoring some important interactions btwn spells...

It's not unusual for me to run around like a headless chicken trying to survive, especially in Heroic, so I know my mechanics need to improve.

So, do I just need to get good?  See anything beyond mechanics and rotations that I can clean up?  Maybe I just need to step back from the sim #s and breathe?  Again, I'm not worried about being top deeps, (and I won't be, considering my gear).  It's just.... THE GAP in #s!  What am I missing?

P.S.  My goal is simply to pull better DPS weight on Heroic Avatar/Kil'J.  Maybe the sims are misleading me to think that I'm ready for that?

Thanks for the feedback!

[Luthixx 138]

In all honesty, it just seems like you're barely making use of the Killer Cobra talent. I checked my logs against yours and I use the Aspect of the Beast build with stomp (minus leggo boots) and in the same length of time I can use Kill Command more times without ever gaining the CD reset than you can with the reset. You need to pool your focus leading up to Bestial Wrath and make sure you're sitting there spamming Cobra Shot and Kill Command 1 2 1 2 1 2 and popping Dire Frenzy whenever you can. Try and save up 2 stacks of it if possible before hitting BW though, especially before aspect too.

If you can, hit Dire Frenzy with 2 stacks, wait 5-6 seconds then hit it again, then another 5-6 seconds and it should allow you to hit it a 3rd time on reset to get up to 3 stacks during BW. That would really help with your dps.

You're just not getting in anywhere near enough casts - you need to be making your BW windows a lot more effective.

[Swerrve 0]

Awesome. That make sense. And it's a nuance I wouldn't have picked up. With all my mental focus on stacking dire - Something I hadn't even tried before this week -  I wasn't paying much attention to KC or CS. 

In fact, now that you mention it, I seem to remember having a relic that reduced focus of Cobra Shot? So, maybe that was the swing in mechanics I'm experiencing. Going from spamming it, to being a lot more judicious w/it as I more closely managed DF. 

Will shift that play style and see what happens. 

Thanks for the quick review!

P.S. As someone who just started raiding midway through Legion, what's a reasonable  % of my sim that I should be reaching? 

Are sim #s realistically achievable, or are they so refined that they're hard for the average player to ever match? 

[Luthixx 138]

To put it bluntly, DF means almost nothing in comparison to optimising your BW window to use Killer Cobra effectively. 

Yes it's important, but getting the most amount of Kill Command's off is essential. Just do your best to watch how long BW has left, try to pool as much focus as you can as well as 2 charges before it or time it so you can have 3 stacks at some point during BW, and then spend the whole time spamming between Kill Command and Cobra shot. You should see some massive improvements straight away.

In regards to sims, it depends on the fight. Sims are normally based on a Patchwerk fight where you have no mechanics and just stand there dps'ing like crazy. BM is very forgiving in terms of mechanics, as we're a ranged class with 100% mobility, however focusing on moving to counter a mechanic can be a major thorn in your side if you're not playing based solely on muscle memory. I've been raiding on and off for about 9 years so I'm pretty decent with my hunter, so mechanics aren't an issue for me.

Realistically, as long as you're doing the mechanics that's your biggest concern, especially if you join a mythic team, but maximising your dps is something you should spend quite a lot of time on. However, you should be at least hitting 80-90% of your sim dps on pure ST, however any adds or changes in the boss can drastically reduce that. E.g. intermission phases in Kil'jaeden or adds in Harjatan. 

Just sit there on the target dummies and practise - also go to Argus and try moving around while dps'ing the rares, you'll be able to get some practise in that way.

[Swerrve 0]

Huge thanks Luthixx. I really appreciate the detail and clarity in your response. Looking forward to putting it into practice.

[thunderwhalepicnic 0]

What a swell forum thread. 

[Swerrve 0]

On 9/4/2017 at 11:17 AM, thunderwhalepicnic said:

What a swell forum thread. 

I thought so!

By making better use of BW and specifically by spamming CS and KC during its entirety I'm jumping anywhere from 100-250k DPS.

Honestly, I didn't even realize the interaction between CS and KC during BW. I thought it was an RPG proc. Didn't know you could maximize it even half as much as is truly possible.

Now just need to clean up technique and mechanics, but feeling like I'm in a *much* better place.

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Swerrve

[Tru 0]

BM single target is very strong right now. To be honest i would say with the right DF setup its one of the strongest. Only drawback is that your AoE is garbage.  Its good to keep gear in your bags and switch between the Zoo build and DF to get maximum DPS on every fight. Normally i just use single target gear because it keeps up with allot of AoE DPS if you switch to Dire Stable.  Really i feel like BM shines enough with single target that its possible to keep up without even changing anything but Dire Stable.

 

Ultimately BM is definitely not as strong as it was in T19.  But i think it will make a comeback in T21. We got a little screwed over on our T20 set bonuses.

[Sisco 23]

6 hours ago, Tru said:

BM single target is very strong right now. To be honest i would say with the right DF setup its one of the strongest. Only drawback is that your AoE is garbage.  Its good to keep gear in your bags and switch between the Zoo build and DF to get maximum DPS on every fight. Normally i just use single target gear because it keeps up with allot of AoE DPS if you switch to Dire Stable.  Really i feel like BM shines enough with single target that its possible to keep up without even changing anything but Dire Stable.

 

Ultimately BM is definitely not as strong as it was in T19.  But i think it will make a comeback in T21. We got a little screwed over on our T20 set bonuses.

Looking at the 75th percentile logs, we are not "very strong." We are balanced I'd say. On single target fights BM, is placing in the top half but not by any extraordinary numbers. Likewise, for AoE fights, we are in the bottom half but again not by any crazy amount. BM only "shines" at really high short burst single target. Everything else we are in middle. You state that DF is strong but I dont see how you reached that conclusion. Looking at BM logs, stomp is the choice spec on every fight in ToS post 7.3. 

[Luthixx 138]

10 hours ago, Tru said:

BM single target is very strong right now. To be honest i would say with the right DF setup its one of the strongest. Only drawback is that your AoE is garbage.  Its good to keep gear in your bags and switch between the Zoo build and DF to get maximum DPS on every fight. Normally i just use single target gear because it keeps up with allot of AoE DPS if you switch to Dire Stable.  Really i feel like BM shines enough with single target that its possible to keep up without even changing anything but Dire Stable.

 

Ultimately BM is definitely not as strong as it was in T19.  But i think it will make a comeback in T21. We got a little screwed over on our T20 set bonuses.

Unless you have evidence to back your claims, please stop promoting a playstyle that is outdated and subpar.

There are no logs to suggest the Dire Frenzy build is even remotely good.

BM single target for the majority, is good but it's certainly not 'very strong'. The only fights where BM feels even remotely good is Goroth, Sisters, Maiden, and Avatar. Any fight that has predominantly one target and a lot of movement. Even on Mythic Maiden I'm not even coming close to our MM hunters with a strong leggo/tier/trinket setup. And I'm sitting in the top 5 for that fight.

Dire Stable is also a useless talent unless it's consistent cleave and you're using Multishot far more often than you're using Cobra Shot.

[Banard 61]

21 hours ago, Tru said:

BM single target is very strong right now. To be honest i would say with the right DF setup its one of the strongest. Only drawback is that your AoE is garbage.  Its good to keep gear in your bags and switch between the Zoo build and DF to get maximum DPS on every fight. Normally i just use single target gear because it keeps up with allot of AoE DPS if you switch to Dire Stable.  Really i feel like BM shines enough with single target that its possible to keep up without even changing anything but Dire Stable.

 

Ultimately BM is definitely not as strong as it was in T19.  But i think it will make a comeback in T21. We got a little screwed over on our T20 set bonuses.

 DF is garbage and again your spreading this misinformation about DF and Stomp, single and aoe. 

 

You need to read a guide and learn your class more before giving advise to others. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Banard

[Tru 0]

18 hours ago, Banard said:

 DF is garbage and again your spreading this misinformation about DF and Stomp, single and aoe. 

 

You need to read a guide and learn your class more before giving advise to others. 

Yeah? Bring me a Zoo build BM hunter to beat me in a ST fight then.  We will see how garbage it is.

Plus im pretty sure i made it clear that to maximize damage you would need to switch  between both depending on the encounter. I never once said using DF and only changing to Dire Stable would be the "best" route to go. But if you do not have the proper gear/legendary to use both. Then yes you can still "keep up" ....like i said.  But obviously its not the ideal way to go. So maybe you should read into what the post says a little more before you start acting like an ass.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Tru

[Tru 0]

On 10/17/2017 at 3:38 PM, Sisco said:

Looking at the 75th percentile logs, we are not "very strong." We are balanced I'd say. On single target fights BM, is placing in the top half but not by any extraordinary numbers. Likewise, for AoE fights, we are in the bottom half but again not by any crazy amount. BM only "shines" at really high short burst single target. Everything else we are in middle. You state that DF is strong but I dont see how you reached that conclusion. Looking at BM logs, stomp is the choice spec on every fight in ToS post 7.3. 

 

The only point im even trying to make here is that a DF setup, stacked with a considerable amount of haste and mastery, produces very high ST damage when combined with the right trinkets.  Never once did i ever say only changing Dire Stable while using a DF setup to AoE is the best route to take.  Obviously a Zoo build would completely dominate that in every way.  I'm sure the DF setup can be beaten in a ST fight, i didnt claim it was "the" best.  But using a Zoo build in a ST fight over a DF build with haste/mastery stacked to a considerable amount?  Theres just no way that's better.  Like mine for example... 19% crit 32% haste 102% mastery at ilvl 935. With the right trinkets, i use a 910 arcanocrystal and a 910 BTI, that setup will dominate any Zoo build and  allot of MM in a ST fight. i absolutely know that 100% because i do it every day.  Now of course that wont beat out every class/spec i just figured that was a given.  I honestly didnt think i needed to point that out.  I do appreciate you being decent with your reply though.  Im not trying to misinform anyone here.  Maybe i didnt clearly explain what i was trying to say which might of caused some confusion.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Tru

[Tru 0]

On 10/17/2017 at 6:50 PM, Luthixx said:

Unless you have evidence to back your claims, please stop promoting a playstyle that is outdated and subpar.

There are no logs to suggest the Dire Frenzy build is even remotely good.

BM single target for the majority, is good but it's certainly not 'very strong'. The only fights where BM feels even remotely good is Goroth, Sisters, Maiden, and Avatar. Any fight that has predominantly one target and a lot of movement. Even on Mythic Maiden I'm not even coming close to our MM hunters with a strong leggo/tier/trinket setup. And I'm sitting in the top 5 for that fight.

Dire Stable is also a useless talent unless it's consistent cleave and you're using Multishot far more often than you're using Cobra Shot.

It certainly is very strong, single target.

Fine, ill produce logs of single target encounters.

Dire Stable is not useless, just like you said if you hit with a constant cleave and you are using multishot over cobra AND you do not have the proper gear/legendary to stack crit like its needed for a Zoo build.  But once again i assumed all of this knowledge was known and i didnt have to clarify everything.

 I clearly stated you need to switch between both.  

And like i said before, i just said it works and it keeps up.  My god, i never once said it was the ideal way to go or was "the best". 

Are you people even reading what i wrote?  Because your comments are telling me otherwise.

 

[Banard 61]

7 hours ago, Tru said:

Yeah? Bring me a Zoo build BM hunter to beat me in a ST fight then.  We will see how garbage it is.

Plus im pretty sure i made it clear that to maximize damage you would need to switch  between both depending on the encounter. I never once said using DF and only changing to Dire Stable would be the "best" route to go. But if you do not have the proper gear/legendary to use both. Then yes you can still "keep up" ....like i said.  But obviously its not the ideal way to go. So maybe you should read into what the post says a little more before you start acting like an ass.

Again what you are saying is false. I don't care what you see in your sandbox or your anecdotal evidence. Bring a hunter? Here take your pick: 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/server/150/latest/#class=Hunter&spec=BeastMastery

 https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/server/99/latest/#class=Hunter&spec=BeastMastery

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/server/206/latest/#class=Hunter&spec=BeastMastery

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/server/123/latest/#class=Hunter&spec=BeastMastery

 

 

or better yet: 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/13#boss=2032&class=Hunter&spec=BeastMastery

^ the ranking for BM Hunter for Mythic Goroth. 

 

I am pretty sure i made it clear, your comment is false your spreading wrong information. You are confusing people that are looking for help. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Banard

[Banard 61]

5 hours ago, Tru said:

 

 I clearly stated you need to switch between both.  

 

And we clearly stated you are wrong and i have illustrated with logs.  Stop spreading misinformation.  

[Sisco 23]

7 hours ago, Tru said:

Yeah? Bring me a Zoo build BM hunter to beat me in a ST fight then.  We will see how garbage it is.

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/13#boss=2032&class=Hunter&spec=BeastMastery&bracket=25

Here is the log for 934-936 ilvl BM hunters. There are only 5 DF builds ranked in the top 400. Banard is at 316. There is only 1 DF pass that did better than him, Forgiveher on Proudmoore. 

 

7 hours ago, Tru said:

The only point im even trying to make here is that a DF setup, stacked with a considerable amount of haste and mastery, produces very high ST damage when combined with the right trinkets. 

DF can and does do high, yes, but not higher than a stomp build 98.75% of the time. 

 

7 hours ago, Tru said:

  But using a Zoo build in a ST fight over a DF build with haste/mastery stacked to a considerable amount?  Theres just no way that's better.  Like mine for example... 19% crit 32% haste 102% mastery at ilvl 935. With the right trinkets, i use a 910 arcanocrystal and a 910 BTI, that setup will dominate any Zoo build and  allot of MM in a ST fight. i absolutely know that 100% because i do it every day.  

The log above again shows that stomp is better. Skill has a lot to do with this too when comparing yourself not using logs. You say that you beat zoo and a lot of MM in ST. I can only assume you mean other hunters within that raid since logs show both of those builds to be superior to DF. If you are playing DF at a high level there is no doubt in my mind that you will be able to beat certain specs that should be higher performing if they are being played by someone that isnt as skilled as you in getting the most out of the spec. We are not saying that you are a bad player or anything of the sort but logs show that, when performed with the same level of skill and comparable gear, Stomp will beat DF 395/400 ~98.75% of the time.

[Banard 61]

2 hours ago, Sisco said:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/13#boss=2032&class=Hunter&spec=BeastMastery&bracket=25

Here is the log for 934-936 ilvl BM hunters. There are only 5 DF builds ranked in the top 400. Banard is at 316. There is only 1 DF pass that did better than him, Forgiveher on Proudmoore. 

 

Banard has not raided since Sept. 27 ...man i dont even think i logged in this week.....

bah! Me guild died and i be taking a break. Need to find meself a weekend guild. 

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Banard

[ruthven78 1]

Im going to be taking this from the solo open world perspective though i believe you are more focused on raids/dungeons.

I love BM Hunter for open world.  I feel we have great solo ability especially with the Prydaz legendary.  With aspect/beast & tenacity spec I can solo every argus elite except bosses long as my pet can taunt. Which is a bonus for me being on a low pop realm.

That being said, yeah, I'm finding myself coming up short in DPS for raids but I also have great mobility so often dont get caught in raid mechanics nearly as often as other classes.  I have Qa'pla and One of the Pack, so my BW windows are fairly frequent.  Im getting within the top 5 DPS of the PUG raid groups though usually.  Im currently using a zoo/aspect build

This is how I build:
Way of the Cobra
Stomp
Posthaste
One with the Pack
Intimidation
Murder of Crows
Aspect of the Beast (ferocity in raids, tenacity open world)
 

iLvL 931 (no tiered gear)
and I use artifact traits that buff KC

Edited October 20, 2017 by ruthven78

[Khallid 110]

Seems like I missed all the bashing fun this time around. Banard and Sisco got this covered. Not much else to add...

22 hours ago, Tru said:

Yeah? Bring me a Zoo build BM hunter to beat me in a ST fight then.  We will see how garbage it is.

Challenge accepted :P

Edited October 20, 2017 by Khallid

[Valks 2,375]

On 10/20/2017 at 6:11 AM, Khallid said:

Challenge accepted :P

Is this where we all gather round in a circle and chant "fight, fight, fight!" while you both smack Goroth?

[Luthixx 138]

On 10/19/2017 at 3:36 PM, Tru said:

Yeah? Bring me a Zoo build BM hunter to beat me in a ST fight then.  We will see how garbage it is.

Still waiting on some logs - gonna back up your claim?

[WhippWhapp 0]

I like frenzy more than stomp, just for the way it feels... but equipping sephuz/boots or belt- stomp pulls ahead with AOTB even dropping all the ilvl and with no ring procs.

[Khallid 110]

I like the variety. Stomp was the best at the beginning of Legion, then Dire Frenzy became better when they added Thunderslash, now Stomp is best again wearing high crit gear, and it's very likely that Tier 19 will get nerfed for Antorus, so maybe Dire Frenzy makes a comeback :P

In my opinion, that's a lot better than just using the same talent for the whole expansion. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Khallid

[Sisco 23]

On 10/27/2017 at 9:26 PM, WhippWhapp said:

I like frenzy more than stomp, just for the way it feels... but equipping sephuz/boots or belt- stomp pulls ahead with AOTB even dropping all the ilvl and with no ring procs.

I am a big fan of play what you like playing. That being said, most people here ask for help to do more damage than they are currently doing and that is why stomp is suggested. If you and your raid team are happy with your dps and it allows you to play a spec that makes the game enjoyable to you, go for it! 

On 10/28/2017 at 11:13 PM, Khallid said:

I like the variety. Stomp was the best at the beginning of Legion, then Dire Frenzy became better when they added Thunderslash, now Stomp is best again wearing high crit gear, and it's very likely that Tier 19 will get nerfed for Antorus, so maybe Dire Frenzy makes a comeback :P

In my opinion, that's a lot better than just using the same talent for the whole expansion. 

Variety is fun. It also looks like the new 4p will benefit AotW which favors DF. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Sisco