hearthstone Druid Nerf Announcement Seemingly Imminent.

[KinU 2]

Reduce the mana given by innervat to 1

Increase spreading plague to 6 mana and max 5 minions.

Reduce cost and attack/health to Geist to 3 mana 3/4

 

[Bozonik 94]

12 hours ago, WedgeAntilles said:

And your reference to competitive play (again, based on how many tournaments? 1? Wow, great...) - a vast majority had Pirate Warrior in their deck list. Or - earlier on - Midrange Shaman.

Edit: I just checked the HCT EU SUmmer Playoffs.

Even there isn't a 100% Druid-Play.

Everyone in the HCT thing has brought a druid deck, no?

And both pirate warrior and midrange Shaman received balancing nerfs. Pirate warrior lost Buccaneer to a nerf (late Feb 2017) and midrange Shaman lost tuskarr totemic (early Oct 2016) to a nerf (also rockbiter wep, and later spirit claws). The nerfs didn't kill either deck, just weakened them somewhat. Pirate warrior is still here. Midrange Shaman has gone now but not because of nerfs (struggled to keep up with patches aggro decks after MSG expansion, and lost key cards to rotation to wild after Ungoro expansion).

I do feel the game needs a Druid nerf. But that doesn't mean it'll destroy the existing Druid decks, just balance them.

[positiv2 952]

I spent 4k dust on druid this expansion, but I am actually glad that it will see nerf, even if I get no dust back. It is simply not healthy for the game.

1 hour ago, KinU said:

Reduce the mana given by innervat to 1

I don't think we need more Counterfeit Coins. 

[Oxygen 446]

I don't think they'll hit Innervate; it's way too iconic. Spreading Plague and Ultimate Infestation are likely candidates for nerfs; I assume Spreading Plague may have its mana cost increased by 1, or its spawns reduced by 1 health (to 4); Ultimate Infestation might lose its 5 damage to turn it into a value card rather than a swing card, which is a lot more druid-like, and would be an appropriate power reduction. I know you can't look at things directly like this, but for perspective's sake, drawing 5 cards is worth 7.5 mana; 5 armor is worth 1 mana; a 5/5 is worth 4.5 mana. Without the damage even, the card has about 3 mana of extra value. Alternatively, they could make it draw 4, gain 4 armor, summon a 4/4, deal 4, which would still be strong, but not quite as oppressive.

[evictednoise 3]

Druid's new cards are affordable, that's why there are so many playing it, that's why it generates so much hate. (more players = more hate, Captain!).

Lets look at this absolutely affordable Priest deck https://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone/rookies-big-priest-deck

YShaarj, Ysera? You wouldn't play them in any other deck would you?

Try playing versus this, it's absolutely ridiculous.

But you didn't play versus this 14 games in a row, because it's very expensive. Instead you played 14 druids in a row because it's a budget strong deck. If every Druid hater played vs 14 big priests in a row, they wouldn't hate jade druid :)).

bUt HoY LeTs NaRf JoDe DrUiiD BeCauSe sO uNfAirrr!!11!!!!11

6th turn: priest is summoning a 5/5 Y'Shaarh, which pulls a 10/10 Y'Shaarh, next turn those pull a statue and lich king(how often do you have powerful removal for 2 minions on turn 6-7?), hey its alright its totally balanced :D I'll just pack two Shadow Essence's in case my Barnes only pulls a poop Ysera :D :D :D

 

We all know the sad story with druid: coin into wild growth on turn 1, jade blossom on 2, nourish on 3 and innervate + ultimate on 4.

Well guess what, you just lost to a golden hand :D. Try calculating the chance of getting a hand like that (its small).

Try calculating the chance of getting something useful from barnes on big priest deck (60% if we consider priest of the feast useless && you haven't drawn him yet).

Druid's decks are definitely not the most ridiculous decks today, it's just strong and affordable.

Edited September 4, 2017 by evictednoise

[Dustintime 7]

WedgeAntilles:

 

not making it up that DisguisedToast played 14 druids in a row. search google or bing for his twitter feed, he has a copy of the stream on it...you can fast forward through it and see all fourteen DRUIDS........IN A ROW...........in STANDARD play.

 

k thx

[Dustintime 7]

5 hours ago, WedgeAntilles said:

WedgeAntilles:

 

not making it up that DisguisedToast played 14 druids in a row. search google or bing for his twitter feed, he has a copy of the stream on it...you can fast forward through it and see all fourteen DRUIDS........IN A ROW...........in STANDARD play.

 

k thx

 

Let's talk about some real numbers, shall we?

I have played 151 games in the last week (I was on vacation and had a lot of time...) with Jade-Druid decks.

Ranked games.

30% of these games were against Druid. The majority of those were Jade-Druid, but not all.

Around 1/4 or 1/3 were Aggro-Druid.

That leads us to less then 1/4 of all games against Jade-Druid.

 

Not quite the 90% or 100% you guys like to make up.

 

 

[Strongpoint 74]

I'd love to see Innervate removed from the game. I strictly believe that "temporary ramp" should be rogue's thing with few exceptions.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Strongpoint

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dustintime said:

WedgeAntilles:

 

not making it up that DisguisedToast played 14 druids in a row. search google or bing for his twitter feed, he has a copy of the stream on it...you can fast forward through it and see all fourteen DRUIDS........IN A ROW...........in STANDARD play.

 

k thx

Plz get over your realy huge database of incredible 14 games.

What do 14 games tell you? Absolutly nothing.

I am sure you can find somebody who hasn't faced a single Jade-Druid for some games - WTF, Jade-Druid needs a buff...

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Bozonik said:

Everyone in the HCT thing has brought a druid deck, no?

 

No.

The majority did but not all.

[Oxygen 446]

54 minutes ago, WedgeAntilles said:

No.

The majority did but not all.

Druid did have a ridiculously high (read: almost 100%?) ban rate, though. Some players even brought in unrefined druid decks expecting it to be banned to focus on other decks.

[positiv2 952]

1 hour ago, WedgeAntilles said:

No.

The majority did but not all.

As our HCT guide says, "All of the 77 players in the event brought Druid, with 57 bringing Priest." Every player brought a druid deck.

[VaraTreledees 138]

Innervate needs to be moved to the Hall of Fame.  It is not only incredibly limiting for design space, but has caused nothing but problems for years.  It is unequivocally the strongest card in the entire game, and if it doesn't get moved now, it will be with the rotation, which will leave what ever druid cards they end up nerfing in a bad place.  I am currently at work, but I will work on a more detailed argument when I get home.

Edited September 4, 2017 by VaraTreledees

[Caldyrvan 377]

I think a lot of players didn't saw the impact that KFT has at first. For druid it is just a bit more because of the ability to ramp.

I still think Innervate is not the problem. As I said, it'S the synergy with the new cards. And the druid needs the mana because a lot of his good cards cost more while other classes already start to spam cards with lower mana. If you remove innervate you will neuter the druid and limit him to fewer deck options and making him far far less fun to play.

If they keep moving cards to hall of fame, I think they should consider to move a card here and there from an expansion that is leaving to the classic set so you still have the same amount of cards you can depend on. I know I know I'm naive ^^

Edited September 4, 2017 by Caldyrvan

[positiv2 952]

7 minutes ago, Caldyrvan said:

If they keep moving cards to hall of fame, I think they should consider to move a card here and there from an expansion that is leaving to the classic set so you still have the same amount of cards you can depend on. I know I know I'm naive ^^

Brode said something about doing that in the future (my guess is next rotation). He specifically mentioned Shatter in place of Ice Lance. 

[Caldyrvan 377]

Oh I didn't know that, thank you :) ... Well Shatter is not exactly the card I'm looking for but I'm glad they will go this path.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Caldyrvan

[Paracel 165]

Hi everyone,

I've been away from Hearthstone for quite awhile. Last time I was heavily invested in it, it was Gadgetzan meta, The Second Shamanstone Age. I had a very heavy burnout playing the game when it wasn't in its best shape. Needless to say, I've missed the good meta of Ungoro and my interest has been rekindled shortly before Hearthstone was broken again. My point : don't follow what I follow, it's a bad omen.

Also, last time I made a ban prediction, it turned out in exactly the opposite way, so don't follow much there either, but I have something to say.

Ultimate Infestation is broken. I mean, come on. It says "I win", right on the damn card. It's Yogg-Saron but without random on it. You just win when you cast it, no animation delay. Nerfing it to all 4's may be not really enough, just because it's not the numbers that are busted, it's the concept of an expensive but incredibly strong fair spell being broken in a class that has access to mana acceleration. Spells are also much harder to interact in Hearthstone than minions - only one class has Counterspell and that's it.

Spreading Plague is also quite heavily overtuned, and strategic implications of having a card that stops any wide boards in a deck that has a historical weakness with it were, I feel, underestimated by developers quite heavily. But it's really hard to tweak with in an easy way. I would remove it from the game entirely (unleash the hounds rework style).

In 2016, Shaman was strong beyond fair. It had business winning any game given the right draw, it had capabilities both early and late game, both fair and unfair. It pushed out other decks and skewed the meta heavily. Yet it was not unbeatable as per se. We actually had decks like Tempo Mage, Secret Hunter, Zoo Warlock, Dragon Warrior, that could go toe to toe with The Tyrant, good enough to give you a reason to be playing something else than Shaman, and they did so playing their field, playing with a similar gameplan. With Plague and Infestation, Druid at the moment has invalidated every axis of fair interaction with it, and the unfair interaction has been tackled by other means. 

My point is, Blizzard need to act once again, as we face our worst crisis yet. KFT backfired in an unpredictable way, and to be honest, I have little hope for a swift recovery, because it's a very complicated problem. And it's not the only one - if you take a step further and think about the decks that aren't Druid, they are very problematic at their core, too. DK Priest, DK Mage and DK Warlock represent nigh-unbeatable top-end which is an issue we're not even looking at, because Druid is more unbeatable than "nigh".

[Caldyrvan 377]

I agree that druid needs to be tuned down a bit, but the yelling istoo much, imo. Actually I still like the games vs Druid even if I lose. It is by far more fun than playing against dull face hitting decks.

And there are other "I win buttons" besides Ultimate Infestation which I don't see as a win button. If you and your opponent are equal or you are just slightly behind and he drops a Bloodreaver Gul'dan it's a win button too and I have no problem to get to the 10 mana required for it with all the removal spells, Defile for example can be heavily game changing if played correctly (e.g. abusing own minions to produce more casts of it).

As I said, I agree that druid needs to fall in line but imo it's just a bit tuning required. Nothing is totally broken with druid.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Caldyrvan

[Bozonik 94]

10 hours ago, evictednoise said:

Druid's new cards are affordable, that's why there are so many playing it, that's why it generates so much hate. (more players = more hate, Captain!).

Lets look at this absolutely affordable Priest deck https://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone/rookies-big-priest-deck

YShaarj, Ysera? You wouldn't play them in any other deck would you?

Try playing versus this, it's absolutely ridiculous.

But you didn't play versus this 14 games in a row, because it's very expensive. Instead you played 14 druids in a row because it's a budget strong deck. If every Druid hater played vs 14 big priests in a row, they wouldn't hate jade druid :)).

Your point is fair, affordability does impact how deck popularity. Ysera and Yshaarj have both featured in multiple playable decks in the past though. Just to name a few Ramp Dragon Druid with Barnes-Yshaarj-Ysera-Deathwings-Primordials saw a moderate amount of play last season, they have both featured with Barnes in control Shaman lists in the past too. Yshaarj also saw play in decks where Barnes-Yshaarj were the only minions (with renounce in Warlock which was never very strong, but also in Hunter which was playable in the Karazhan meta before the CoTW nerf). Ysera has featured in multiple dragon based decks like dragon priest and warrior, and control warrior.

Also, while the deck you list can indeed at times be insane, it is not a very consistent deck. Kazakus-Priest with DeathKnight is a much stronger deck (and the 2nd most popular deck brought to the HCT tournament after the druids).

[Guest]

14 hours ago, positiv2 said:

As our HCT guide says, "All of the 77 players in the event brought Druid, with 57 bringing Priest." Every player brought a druid deck.

Aren't we talking about JADE Druid only? Or do I make a mistake here?

I confess I am confused now - why does the Decklist lists 10 players NOT with Jade-Druid?
https://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone/hct-eu-summer-playoffs-players-and-decks

First player is

Cerberus07

Italy

 

with an Aggro-Druid deck.

[positiv2 952]

3 hours ago, WedgeAntilles said:

Aren't we talking about JADE Druid only? Or do I make a mistake here?

The question did not specify what type of druid - "Everyone in the HCT thing has brought a druid deck, no?". That was a reply to your "Even there isn't a 100% Druid-Play." - even though you talk about jades before and after this sentence, you do not mention jades in this part. That's probably where the confusion is coming from.

[Guest]

Ah, now I understand.

Yeah, that was definitly my mistake, thx for the clarification :)

[evictednoise 3]

13 hours ago, Bozonik said:

Also, while the deck you list can indeed at times be insane, it is not a very consistent deck. Kazakus-Priest with DeathKnight is a much stronger deck (and the 2nd most popular deck brought to the HCT tournament after the druids).

Yes, exactly my point, it's insane but inconsistent!

Turn 4 Ultimate Infestation is just as much insane and inconsistent! :)

Often times both of my infestations are in the bottom 8 cards, sometimes they are not playable because of card count in hand, or just in favor of building a board.. blah blah.. there are lots of different situations where ultimate infestation is a dead draw.

I think hysteria about druid is coming from those insane turn 4 swing into win moments.

And also thousands watch streamers who play tier 2/experimental decks for stream entertainment value. And they moan and groan about druid, but they don't play standard(I'll humbly imply that's where experimental decks belong) or just spam a consistent deck that would actually win vs druid :)) no, standard is for p....s, real men test on production :D . They are trying to be creative with decks for more stream entertainment value and that's fair, but playing an experimental deck and losing to druid doesn't make druid overpowered.

Toast for example played a quest mage which actually counters jade druid - and he won every single game vs jade druid. But that's boring to watch and viewers go to watch savjz playing another medvih nzoth deathknight *insert few more random legendaries here* priest and moaning about druid :)

 

Also if we go into superstition section, lets try and imagine..

So HS developers have all match statistics to analyze, a proper ranking system for cards and other crazy stuff possibly including artificial intelligence at their disposal to do their job well. And they released Ultimate Infestation as well as Spreading Plague.

Is somebody trying to imply he is smarter than HS developers? :)

 

I know millions of players are in tears and everything, I'm sorry but I'll bet my money on the developers. I'm pretty confident they know what they are doing way better than anyone else.

Druid is not overpowered.

Players however, seem to be underpowered. Which is sad. Or not :)

[evictednoise 3]

Innervate nerfed;

Same mechanic but now it gives 1 mana instead of 2

[Caldyrvan 377]

Now it's worth a thought to completely replace Innervate with something else.