wow No Plans to Allow Flying on Argus

[solitha 84]

I knew going into this patch that we'd be groundbound on Argus, at least for a while. I'm disappointed to hear that the plan is to never let us fly at all, but that's not my main gripe.

The *^#(*%$@%^ flute is rep-gated.

When we unlocked world quests in the Broken Isles, we were given the Flight Master's Whistle along with them. But by that time we'd quested, and followed major storylines through each zone. We knew those zones. They were familiar to us. Getting to the world quest wasn't often a problem; once you were done, use your whistle and head off to the next.

Argus - Here's a completely alien landscape. We're taken through on some bare-bones story quests, then set loose with world quests dotted all over highly unfamiliar zones. Oh, your hearthstone is still on cooldown? Guess you'll have to teleport somewhere off Argus entirely and find your way back, because you're stuck far away from a beacon.

Right now I have zero motivation to do Argus world quests. I have at every step of the way felt that the FMW was key to world quests without flight; it was all that made the system bearable. Without it I probably would have given up on Legion early on, and I don't think I would have been the only one.

(It doesn't help I'm an altoholic. Grinding that rep 12 times... ugh.)

Having said all that...

Flight in general - I understand the devs wanting us to learn the lay of the land, and keeping us on the ground for certain challenges. I believe that once we show we can complete those challenges, we should be able to fly again. I actually think WoD's model was perfect except: 1. It should have been able to be completed from the time the expansion dropped, and; 2. It shouldn't have had the Tanaan part. I've explored the zones, completed the story quests, located lots of cleverly hidden treasures, and killed lots of rares. WHY am I being kept on the ground at that point? Nothing more than to slow me down. I'm trying to get to point A to do task B, and the devs insist I must plan for travel time C as well. When simply getting to a task burns up time I need to do said task, that's a problem - that's not gameplay, and it's not fun.

Lastly, I don't think the devs will ever lack for pushback on this. Flying is probably the pinnacle of fantasy, a psychological thing for humans in general. We navigate all kinds of "difficult terrain" in life and just want to break those surly bonds every once in a while.

[Mcdermott 3]

I'm sorry but screw that if you raid Type /played on your main and imagine how much of that was spent actually doing something fun, and how much was spent going from point A to B, killing mobs that don't really have a chance of dropping anything you might want other than trash to fill your bags, and sighing over the repetitive nature of rep grind quests, or getting to your raid location.  Teleporters are another load screen sea-anchoring people with mediocre connections or computers and another opportunity for battle net to drop you in the transition.   The flight system could actually be used to enhance the game rather than being treated as an annoying addition from the past but i guess thats unlikely to ever happen.

 

Edit: keeping up enough to raid regularly if not super hardcore already absorbs as much time as a part time job, adding travel + dodge pointless mobs time to that is just out of touch.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Mcdermott

[nimloth 3]

I read everything topic and comment; and i REALLY hope they will never allow people to fly on Argus. Like all the content is fine and you can easely find path where you don't find youself surrended by 20 mobs.

And about the difficulty, Argus is hard, ofc ! Seeing some DPS crying because they can't solo a elite like what did u expect ?? I love argus rn because you have to play with other people, WoW is not a solo player game. 

About pathfinder, i love this kind of stuff. It make flying a goal to reach and not just something "normal". Flying already made so many WQ too easy (like kirin tor's one). I more than happy with no fly in argus.

Ornyx is right when he speak of the Timeless island, it's a great exemple of a farm zone where you don't need flying at all. Yes Argus is bigger, but thanks god it's bigger, it's a new planet ! And we only seen  a part of it.

For me, people don't know how to enjoy WoW anymore, they just want content they can rush in two day with some cinematics and lore. Grinding is suppose to be hard enougth so it's not totally boring. By putting a lot of density and big mob, they giving us challenge, with reward at the end. Legion is, since the release, bringing back the "old way" and i loving it. Harder to farm, path to find, strategy to solo elite and stuff.

And yeah people saying you "lost" something: you can still fly everywhere else. You never lost anything with 7.3. you even win stuff:

17 hours ago, Stan said:

No flight paths, just Lightforged Beacons, and on top of that, Krokul Flute upgrades your Flight Master's Whistle to summon a krokul tunneler to take you to the nearest Lightforged Beacon while on Argus.

This is more than enougth, before flying was unlocked in the Broken isles, whistle allowed us to easly farm all the WQ.

For me, as long as they don't create area where flying is fully required, like a city in sky, no ground or very little platform, better stay on the ground.

I wish , but it will never happen ofc, the next expansion will be a totally no-flying area. Flying make everything more empty. Players are now too lazy. I love the pathfinder, give us a goal, and i don't care if i can't fly on Argus. I'm a mage and warlock player, and after a week of Argus, i didn't find myself in a situation where i was gonna die because of density or "fel lava".. Just pls players: Use your brain and stop waiting for a game to totally guide you. 

(sorry for the big answer ~ was pretty triggered by this topic)


 

[PatrickHenry 293]

16 hours ago, Granis said:

I just find it funny that for seven years flying wasn't an issue yet for some reason now it is. The only reasons I can see them not wanting to allow flying is: it is easier for them to make zones (in other words be lazy) and to artificially make content last longer. Now if this was any other expansion I could see reason number two being somewhat justified however (and this is a complement) this expansion has so much to do already. On top of that, if you manage to get to a point in which you have done everything then good chance you would like to do it again on an alt. Also could some one describe to me what exactly "immersion" is? It a buzz word thrown around a lot and doesn't seem to match up with it's actual definition. Actually let me rephrase that last question. Why is don't they tell us the real reason instead of just using it as a blanket defense?

"NOW" it is?  Virtually every expansion, iirc, had times where flying was not permitted.  Whether permanently or gated thru 'pathfinder' achieves.  It's hardly new for the flying to be removed.  

"Laziness" is easy to throw around when you want new content, but have the ability to buzz through all of it by flying, not experience much of anything (ie being immersed in it) and then want new content again.  Flying does break immersion - because you can literally skip all the action.  

Action being waves and waves of attacking demons.  Because you cant fight them in the sky.  So they either make a mechanic to kick you off to actually fight them, physically prevent you from flying at all, or entirely rework flying into a combat-available system.  

Immersion matches up perfectly with its definition.  They want you immersed into the ground game (the only game there really has ever been, other than moving point to point.)  Your ability to totally bypass that (other than killing X guy, picking up X item) is virtually complete with flying.  In every meaningful way its complete.  

[DeathsDesign 92]

4 hours ago, PatrickHenry said:

"NOW" it is?  Virtually every expansion, iirc, had times where flying was not permitted.  Whether permanently or gated thru 'pathfinder' achieves.  It's hardly new for the flying to be removed.  

"Laziness" is easy to throw around when you want new content, but have the ability to buzz through all of it by flying, not experience much of anything (ie being immersed in it) and then want new content again.  Flying does break immersion - because you can literally skip all the action.  

Action being waves and waves of attacking demons.  Because you cant fight them in the sky.  So they either make a mechanic to kick you off to actually fight them, physically prevent you from flying at all, or entirely rework flying into a combat-available system.  

Immersion matches up perfectly with its definition.  They want you immersed into the ground game (the only game there really has ever been, other than moving point to point.)  Your ability to totally bypass that (other than killing X guy, picking up X item) is virtually complete with flying.  In every meaningful way its complete.  

This... just everything about this.  Yes I would love to be able to fly on Argus, but that is only out of convenience sake.  When I log in to any character my first thought isn't "damn I should be able to fly here."  My first though is "ok what world quests should I do and is there anything I need from them."  

Here's my thoughts.

Vanilla - no flight... ever, you got your 60% mount at level 40 (yes you had to run everywhere that you didn't use a flight path to get to until you hit level 40), and you got your 100% (epic) mount at level 60.

TBC - Flight became available at level 70 so you had to ground mount until you hit max level and had the gold to buy flying and the flying mounts.

WotLK - Flight became available for Northrend but required cold weather flying as well as you had to be 77 to learn it.

Cata - Added flight for Eastern Kingdoms (minus Blood Elf and Draenei cities and starting zones, also does not apply to Quel'Danas the zone containing Sunwell Plateau)

MoP - Added flight for Pandaria zones upon reaching max level, sold from the flight trainer in Shrine of the Two Moons/Shrine of the Seven Stars. Could not fly on the Timeless Isle

WoD - Flight became available after Tanaan Jungle was opened up (not added, as it was in the original expansion game files but locked) as a zone which meant for at least the first part of the expansion you had to ground mount everywhere (minus taking flight paths) and even then it required the Draenor Pathfinder achievements.

Legion - Originally no flight intended by Blizzard but they gave in to the bitching and moaning and gave it to us as an Achievement reward similar to Draenor Pathfinding.  The achievement was a 2 part system that could not be completed until after the broken isles was implemented.  This happened before the Tomb of Sargeras raid was released, meaning that at MINIMUM you had 77 days of flight between 7.2.5 and 7.3 and probably more (if you started working on the achievement before the release of ToS), now 7.3 is here, there is no flight on yet another added (not opened) zone very similar to Timeless Isle.

 

With the exception of Cata there has always been a time or zone in which you could not fly.  As @PatrickHenry stated flight takes away from the immersion.  Those wondering what immersion means regarding to this, it means the experience, not the experience you want, but the experience that the developers designed for you to have.  What people  don't understand is that when a game company designs, develops and releases a game, they have a very specific (sometimes more than others) experience that the player is intended to have.  How far that deviates for the player is dependent upon the players commitment to the game and it's design, some will follow the design to the letter and others will find every way they can to circumvent the design.  There are not very many MMOs that allow flight the way that Blizzard does in WoW.  Quite a few of the ones that do (not all) allow flight also have an inflight combat system.

 World of Warcraft is a Fantasy world designed to take people out of the every day life and immerse them into a world filled with magic, amazing and awesome creatures, from massive speaking bulls and cows to strange candle wielding kobolds, floating cities in the sky, terrifying orcs and trolls and even zombies that have minds of their own.

The immersion experience that Blizzard has designed for everyone is all based on this point and that includes not being able to fly on a distant world that has been ravaged and overrun by tens of thousands of years worth of demon infestation and may not even contain the same magical properties that are experienced on the player character's home world of Azeroth.

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by DeathsDesign

[Granis 12]

4 hours ago, PatrickHenry said:

"NOW" it is?  Virtually every expansion, iirc, had times where flying was not permitted.  Whether permanently or gated thru 'pathfinder' achieves.  It's hardly new for the flying to be removed.  

"Laziness" is easy to throw around when you want new content, but have the ability to buzz through all of it by flying, not experience much of anything (ie being immersed in it) and then want new content again.  Flying does break immersion - because you can literally skip all the action.  

Action being waves and waves of attacking demons.  Because you cant fight them in the sky.  So they either make a mechanic to kick you off to actually fight them, physically prevent you from flying at all, or entirely rework flying into a combat-available system.  

Immersion matches up perfectly with its definition.  They want you immersed into the ground game (the only game there really has ever been, other than moving point to point.)  Your ability to totally bypass that (other than killing X guy, picking up X item) is virtually complete with flying.  In every meaningful way its complete.  

Yes I stand by the statement "NOW" it is? The only time before MoP (not counting classic because well it didn't show up until BC) flying was not permitted in the outside world was if you were not level cap, which is some what understandable as it is to make the content last longer. As to flying "breaks immersion", that is just a chop out. I could name a number of things that break immersion. Blizzard's own sloppy writing does that itself. And if immersion is skipping action.....then ground mounts and abilities such as stealth "breaks immersion" as well since really you still can skip all the action because everything outside of a dungeon is tied to a leash range.

Granted I don't mind you cannot fly on Argus, at this point I know Blizzard's stance on the subject is. Everyone including Blizzard knows the stock response is bull. The reason they wanted to completely remove flying is like you said, to keep people from chewing through content faster then they can put it out.

Now I see no issue with this idea. What I have a problem is no one wants to admit this, as if the player base is a bunch of idiots. I don't know about you but I really dislike when someone willingly insults my intelligence.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Granis
Proofreading, editing out profanity.

[solitha 84]

On 9/7/2017 at 0:06 PM, DeathsDesign said:

This... just everything about this.  Yes I would love to be able to fly on Argus, but that is only out of convenience sake.  When I log in to any character my first thought isn't "damn I should be able to fly here."  My first though is "ok what world quests should I do and is there anything I need from them."  

...

WoD - Flight became available after Tanaan Jungle was opened up (not added, as it was in the original expansion game files but locked) as a zone which meant for at least the first part of the expansion you had to ground mount everywhere (minus taking flight paths) and even then it required the Draenor Pathfinder achievements.

Legion - Originally no flight intended by Blizzard but they gave in to the bitching and moaning and gave it to us as an Achievement reward similar to Draenor Pathfinding.  The achievement was a 2 part system that could not be completed until after the broken isles was implemented.  This happened before the Tomb of Sargeras raid was released, meaning that at MINIMUM you had 77 days of flight between 7.2.5 and 7.3 and probably more (if you started working on the achievement before the release of ToS), now 7.3 is here, there is no flight on yet another added (not opened) zone very similar to Timeless Isle.

 

With the exception of Cata there has always been a time or zone in which you could not fly.  As @PatrickHenry stated flight takes away from the immersion.  Those wondering what immersion means regarding to this, it means the experience, not the experience you want, but the experience that the developers designed for you to have.  What people  don't understand is that when a game company designs, develops and releases a game, they have a very specific (sometimes more than others) experience that the player is intended to have.  How far that deviates for the player is dependent upon the players commitment to the game and it's design, some will follow the design to the letter and others will find every way they can to circumvent the design.  There are not very many MMOs that allow flight the way that Blizzard does in WoW.  Quite a few of the ones that do (not all) allow flight also have an inflight combat system.

 World of Warcraft is a Fantasy world designed to take people out of the every day life and immerse them into a world filled with magic, amazing and awesome creatures, from massive speaking bulls and cows to strange candle wielding kobolds, floating cities in the sky, terrifying orcs and trolls and even zombies that have minds of their own.

The immersion experience that Blizzard has designed for everyone is all based on this point and that includes not being able to fly on a distant world that has been ravaged and overrun by tens of thousands of years worth of demon infestation and may not even contain the same magical properties that are experienced on the player character's home world of Azeroth.

 

My first thoughts when I log in is, what can I do besides Argus? I'm only really doing the story quests. A few rounds of world quests there and I was too unhappy with the lack of the Whistle/Flute to continue.

BTW you've completely confused WoD and Legion. WoD was the one the devs quietly decided not to add flying in, resulting in a tremendous backlash. Legion flying was confirmed from the time it was announced.

Cata also had no-flying areas... Vashj'ir and Tol Barad. However, it's a pointless argument to say that flying adds to or removes immersion - immersion is a personal thing. I could argue, as a druid, that being unable to change to bird form for no known reason is a serious blow to immersion... on any of my other characters, having all these flying mounts that suddenly don't know how to fly destroys immersion.

Immersion means that point where you tend to forget you're just playing a game. The devs themselves are breaking immersion by not giving us any good reasons for what they're doing. In the Firelands daily zone, the NPCs explained that the air was super-hot and even the Druids of the Talon were finding it hard to operate. On the Isle of Thunder introduction, we were literally shot down by lightning. In Draenor, OTOH, we were constantly confronted with NPCs that casually mounted up and flew away; Thisalee Crow was able to carry us (me, a fellow druid) in bird form. Draenor broke immersion in a way those other zones did not.

Whether the devs like it or not, they designed a game in which flying is a thing. Every expansion we see them struggling to find ways to bypass that decision. WoW could be so much more if they chose to embrace it instead.

And even then, I'd still be satisfied with Argus if they'd just give us the stupid Flute.

[Polybius 2]

7 minutes ago, solitha said:

My first thoughts when I log in is, what can I do besides Argus? I'm only really doing the story quests. A few rounds of world quests there and I was too unhappy with the lack of the Whistle/Flute to continue.

BTW you've completely confused WoD and Legion. WoD was the one the devs quietly decided not to add flying in, resulting in a tremendous backlash. Legion flying was confirmed from the time it was announced.

Cata also had no-flying areas... Vashj'ir and Tol Barad. However, it's a pointless argument to say that flying adds to or removes immersion - immersion is a personal thing. I could argue, as a druid, that being unable to change to bird form for no known reason is a serious blow to immersion... on any of my other characters, having all these flying mounts that suddenly don't know how to fly destroys immersion.

Immersion means that point where you tend to forget you're just playing a game. The devs themselves are breaking immersion by not giving us any good reasons for what they're doing. In the Firelands daily zone, the NPCs explained that the air was super-hot and even the Druids of the Talon were finding it hard to operate. On the Isle of Thunder introduction, we were literally shot down by lightning. In Draenor, OTOH, we were constantly confronted with NPCs that casually mounted up and flew away; Thisalee Crow was able to carry us (me, a fellow druid) in bird form. Draenor broke immersion in a way those other zones did not.

Whether the devs like it or not, they designed a game in which flying is a thing. Every expansion we see them struggling to find ways to bypass that decision. WoW could be so much more if they chose to embrace it instead.

And even then, I'd still be satisfied with Argus if they'd just give us the stupid Flute.

So you want to get shot down by fel cannons and spaceships. Okay.

[Polybius 2]

On 9/6/2017 at 10:33 AM, SMOrcMan said:

The truth is, nobody would give a shit about this if they hadn't given flying so late in Broken Isles. No, I don't need flying to get around Argus, but don't make me waste my fucking time on pathfinder 2 for this BS

The achievement says Broken Shores Pathfinder, not Argus.

[DeathsDesign 92]

4 hours ago, solitha said:

And even then, I'd still be satisfied with Argus if they'd just give us the stupid Flute.

They did, you just have to get the rep to buy it.

[hDszzT 103]

20 hours ago, solitha said:

Immersion means that point where you tend to forget you're just playing a game. The devs themselves are breaking immersion by not giving us any good reasons for what they're doing. In the Firelands daily zone, the NPCs explained that the air was super-hot and even the Druids of the Talon were finding it hard to operate. On the Isle of Thunder introduction, we were literally shot down by lightning. In Draenor, OTOH, we were constantly confronted with NPCs that casually mounted up and flew away; Thisalee Crow was able to carry us (me, a fellow druid) in bird form. Draenor broke immersion in a way those other zones did not.

A+

20 hours ago, solitha said:

And even then, I'd still be satisfied with Argus if they'd just give us the stupid Flute.

Yeah I don't get why they'd lock the whistle behind any rep honestly. The whistle was a reward for hitting Honored with the main Broken Isles faction, to aid with doing World Quests which the same quest unlocked. Now they send us over to another zone which also has World Quests, but we need to get to Revered before we can unlock it?

If they need to keep rep requirement it should be Honored at the very least imo, but I think it'd be best if it was just available from the start otherwise it defeats the purpose of even having the whistle in the first place lol. Not like it breaks and kind of lore anyway, you just have your forces setting up teleportation beacons across the area for easier transportation. You need to manually get to each beacon location before it can be used anyway, don't you?

[Rhostam 0]

I'm not surprised this is such an issue for many players.  I thank the blue post for his replies. He is spending way more time than he needs to explain something that has been the case since time immemorial:  studios will choose how they want players to experience their content.  Sometimes players will agree. Sometimes they will not.  In this case, the timing is definitely unfortunate, but baring that, they have been pretty consistent with their practice of "new content - no wings for you."   I think the grind was a little rough for this recent unlock on Isles, but it was on the whole a non-issue.  Just not sure grinds sell anymore and knowing that makes it a little annoying.

Personally, I think they can allow it in new zones but just make it super dangerous to do so using a variety of mechanisms they could introduce.  As you progress in the new content, you do missions aimed at taking down the anti-air hostiles in the zones allowing you free passage.  Sure people are going to "die" and they should do so often (unless super trixy/ clever) but the inconvenience is something people can choose to live with or not - and, in the meantime, they get their bloody flight. Compromise and no more cry babies.

[Valks 2,375]

On 9/9/2017 at 8:27 PM, Ammako said:

You need to manually get to each beacon location before it can be used anyway, don't you?

Yep. Need to have it unlocked by doing the chain in the area.

[PatrickHenry 293]

13 hours ago, Rhostam said:

and no more cry babies.

I think you've missed many of the posts on here.  I honestly dont think anything other than unlimited, unhindered flight with the next maintenance would appease most.  

...even then I have doubts.

[PatrickHenry 293]

On 9/8/2017 at 5:52 PM, solitha said:

Immersion means that point where you tend to forget you're just playing a game. The devs themselves are breaking immersion by not giving us any good reasons for what they're doing.

Wouldn't them giving a reason on how the game works remind you that you're playing a game?  

On 9/8/2017 at 10:08 PM, DeathsDesign said:

They did, you just have to get the rep to buy it.

I cant believe they would wait until you were reputable enough with them to give you the magic flute to travel with rather than just handing every Joe Nobody a flute when they land on their world.  

[DeathsDesign 92]

3 hours ago, PatrickHenry said:

I cant believe they would wait until you were reputable enough with them to give you the magic flute to travel with rather than just handing every Joe Nobody a flute when they land on their world.

Right there with you, I mean real world context I wouldn't give some stranger the keys to my char the day I first met him.  I would give him the keys to my car after years of cultivating a very close friendship though.  

I think revered may have been a step too far when it comes to rep, especially considering it's Argussian Reach rep, which is only grindable via order hall missions and world quests (to my knowledge).  I think honored would have been an acceptable compromise seeing as we had to reach friendly with 5 factions to unlock the whistle originally.

[PatrickHenry 293]

2 hours ago, DeathsDesign said:

I think honored would have been an acceptable compromise seeing as we had to reach friendly with 5 factions to unlock the whistle originally.

I would agree.  They 'honored' you enough to let you access their transport system.

[solitha 84]

16 hours ago, PatrickHenry said:

Wouldn't them giving a reason on how the game works remind you that you're playing a game?  

I cant believe they would wait until you were reputable enough with them to give you the magic flute to travel with rather than just handing every Joe Nobody a flute when they land on their world.  

Re: devs and immersion - I gave several examples of what I meant. Did you read beyond what you snipped?

As far as just handing us a flute... well, yes. We are not Joe Nobody. By the story we are a first-line hero of Azeroth. We command champions; we have been named head of our entire class; we carry weapons with histories even the Legion know. We were called by Turalyon, who risked Xe'ra's very existence on a gamble to reach us, and they clearly know and respect the Army of the Light. Among the first acts we perform on the planet is to save Hatuun's people from slavery, without even demanding anything in return. We then go on a mission without being asked to free more of their people and slay the pit lord tormenting them. The next time you see Hatuun, you're about to head off with Turalyon to the Shattered Fields, and Hatuun mentions they've verified the kill and decided to help us. A short set of quests later, he's offering us his own people as troops in exchange for supplies. Canonically, they would be handing a flute to a singular proclaimed hero from another world who has now shown his/her intentions on Argus. That is immersion.

[solitha 84]

12 hours ago, DeathsDesign said:

Right there with you, I mean real world context I wouldn't give some stranger the keys to my char the day I first met him.  I would give him the keys to my car after years of cultivating a very close friendship though.  

I think revered may have been a step too far when it comes to rep, especially considering it's Argussian Reach rep, which is only grindable via order hall missions and world quests (to my knowledge).  I think honored would have been an acceptable compromise seeing as we had to reach friendly with 5 factions to unlock the whistle originally.

That's hardly a real world comparison. If your family were being dragged off for slavery and worse, and someone highly respected by someone you highly respect came along and saved them without knowing who the heck you were... you have multiple cars, and one of your cars would help them get around to save more of your family and deal with the people dragging them off? That would be more comparable.

The difference between Friendly for the FMW and even Honored for the flute are several. First of all, you easily had Friendly in each reputation from story quests alone. Those story quests led you on a path through the zone, so you didn't need such a thing; in addition. you actually got a working knowledge of the zone as you went. By the time you hit 110, the only faction were you likely still to need was Nightfallen, and you conquered it the same way. Then, you were given the FMW and world quests together - two highly complementary pieces of a system.

With Argus, we're dumped into zones we're barely shown, packed with hostiles, and expected to play the same with one integral part of that system withheld. IMO the flute should have been part of the story questing that opened up world quests.

[PatrickHenry 293]

6 hours ago, solitha said:

Did you read beyond what you snipped?
<snip>
That is immersion.

I certainly did.  DId you read what WAS snipped: the literal self-defeating pair of sentences you posted.
<snip>
Well, as long as you say that's immersion, then everybody is in agreement! 

So really your idea is just to award it at X point in the quest chain?  Easy enough.  

And since everyone agrees with your idea on Immersion, nobody will have any complaints.  

eta:  My point is this.  I dont need some quest text from Khadgar or Turalyon telling me 'it's too dangerous to fly ON FRICKIN LEGION HOMEWORLD,' to know that when they don't let me fly, MAYBE, just maybe, that's why.  It doesn't 'break my immersion.'  

Would it be cool to have some crazy flight mechanic where you cant fly for "too long" before youre attacked?  Yea. sure.  But honestly, I'd rather the dev's develop some story, some good WQs and zones etc to keep me interested, and just not let me fly on the most dangerous place we've ever been in game, bar none.  You know.  Home of the fallen titan kind of place.  Guy who has been burning an entire innumerable universe kind of bad place.  To steal your phrase, "canonically" that sounds a little dangerous to me, so I can understand why they don't allow it even if it's not 'what I want.' 

Edited September 12, 2017 by PatrickHenry

[PatrickHenry 293]

7 hours ago, solitha said:

With Argus, we're dumped into zones we're barely shown, packed with hostiles, and expected to play the same with one integral part of that system withheld.

You've just described virtually every expansion (excl maybe Cata?) and virtually every final area (quel danas, Timeless Isles, Throne of Thunder, etc...)

eta:  Again.

Edited September 12, 2017 by PatrickHenry

[Valks 2,375]

On 9/12/2017 at 2:27 PM, PatrickHenry said:

To steal your phrase, "canonically" that sounds a little dangerous to me, so I can understand why they don't allow it even if it's not 'what I want.' 

I mean, this is the key to this debate. Story-wise, I get it. I may not like it, but I get it. 

[solitha 84]

14 hours ago, Blainie said:

I mean, this is the key to this debate. Story-wise, I get it. I may not like it, but I get it. 

Oh, I get it as gameplay. Let me try again, since perhaps I'm not being clear.

The flight-immersion subject has its extremes in Draenor and Isle of Thunder. On the Isle of Thunder we were shown that flying would get us targeted by lightning. On Draenor, we were shown NPCs casually mounting up and flying away, and a druid who could pick us up in her own bird form and carry us. Both were no-flight, but one had an immersive reason; the other practically tore up immersion, threw the bits in our faces and laughed.

I don't mind not flying on Argus. I would, however, like the devs to take a different approach to flying... embrace it as part of the game, instead of stifling it. For instance, let us fly... but the longer we're up the more likely we get mobbed by fel bats or targeted by a ship and shot down. Make it a decision we have to weigh against the risks. I think they could do amazing things with that mind-set.

But when people say things like this...

On 9/11/2017 at 6:59 AM, PatrickHenry said:

just handing every Joe Nobody a flute when they land on their world

... it shows they've missed the whole sweep of the story since the beginning of WoD. They lack immersion or they'd know this statement has no basis in the story as we've played it.

TL;DR: The Flute should be part of the storyline. I don't mind not flying on Argus, but I think the devs should handle flight better instead of just being binary about it.

[PatrickHenry 293]

13 hours ago, solitha said:

... it shows they've missed the whole sweep of the story since the beginning of WoD. They lack immersion or they'd know this statement has no basis in the story as we've played it.

Coming from the guy who either didn't notice there wasn't any flying in WoD storyline (thus zero immersion being 'part of flying') until you got an achievement - just like this expansion...

...I think I'll take your criticism with rather healthy grains of salt.  My immersion is not in question here.  I'm not the one complaining about flying, then saying I'm not complaining, and just want something for part of a questline.  

[solitha 84]

18 hours ago, PatrickHenry said:

Coming from the guy who either didn't notice there wasn't any flying in WoD storyline (thus zero immersion being 'part of flying') until you got an achievement - just like this expansion...

...I think I'll take your criticism with rather healthy grains of salt.  My immersion is not in question here.  I'm not the one complaining about flying, then saying I'm not complaining, and just want something for part of a questline.  

Oh, that. The difference between WoD and Legion is that they did not intend to let us fly in WoD... but repeatedly threw it in our faces, examples of which I listed. Legion had a plan to fly from the outset. As I said before, I do understand wanting the devs wanting us to engage with the content. I simply believe they're limiting themselves and us by forcing that engagement on the ground. This isn't strictly a binary issue. I can be relatively okay with how flight is being handled this time around without giving up my wish for it to be handled better.

I think I already said in this thread (but I'm half asleep, I can't recall) that my ideal for WoD would have had me in the air a good year before I was actually allowed. I did all the rares, treasures, and storylines on my own simply because they were there. After that I found myself giving up on goals because I realized how much crap I'd have to wade through to reach whatever it was, and how long that would take.

I might have done the same with Legion without the FMW.

I apologize for my snark, but the "Joe Nobody" comment really left me baffled.