Fire Mage Crit or Haste

[Sonji 0]

OK i have been told by a few FM's out to stack crit before haste being it raised their DPS when they did. Some of the Guides i have seen for fire mages say Haste before Crit. I have Seen video's of both in action and its impossible to judge from a video being that gear is different base stats can vary etc... Anyone have any insight on this?

[Madill 6]

hey mate, this is covered in this post ; https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/269-dps-drop-after-living-bomb-explosion/

generally people seem to think stack crit all the way for the best results since ignite munching has been reduced.

[Damien 1,514]

I'm also in favor of stacking Critical Strike Rating all the way. I know I advise to reach the haste caps in my guide, but it should only be done if you're very close to it. Like you're at 14% or 24% haste and you just need 1% to get to the 15% or 25% soft haste cap.

[kuraigu 0]

i have the tear13 gearbonus. 4 pieces, (3x410,1x397) and a haste of 13,56% (1736).

should i go for 15% haste?

my crit is at 25,61% with no buff.

[Damien 1,514]

No, you should not go for 15% haste. The reason for this is that you are very likely to have the +5% haste raid bonus, which means that in a raid environment, you're already over the cap. Also, the 2-piece bonus gives you Stolen Time, which means that you're almost certain to have +500 Haste Rating when you cast Combustion (which makes you over the cap).

[kuraigu 0]

so that means i could even reforge haste to more crit??

[Sorciere 1]

While I've enjoyed the guides here and the theorycrafting, it didn't prevent me from reforging both ways and going to the test dummies and doing some heroic runs.

I couldn't get my haste down below around 17% with my gear but with crit > haste I did on average 30k over 5 million damage but with haste > crit I did 36k. (both without mirror image or flask) I've reproduced this result 3-4 times between reforging. That's on a practice dummy in SW with two nearby. I have also found that I consistently get better damage in heroic dungeons and raids with more haste.

My first question or observation is that with only 15% haste, one does not surpass 25% with three active living bombs. So, don't you basically loose ticks on your dots? Otherwise, I just can't get my results to agree with the theory. Perhaps the only thing I have added to the recommended "rotation/priority" is that I've built macros to /stopcasting, /cast .. when something procs or to refresh living bomb. In other words, I'll give up a fireball immediately when another cast is required. I'll also, with pyro, */stopcasting, /cast Pyroblast, /stopcasting, /attack) so that I don't accidentally start a long cast if it hasn't proc'd.

My gear isn't yet where I'd like it (as it may never be) but this should show my current haste>crit build

http://us.battle.net...rcière/advanced

[Damien 1,514]

While I've enjoyed the guides here and the theorycrafting, it didn't prevent me from reforging both ways and going to the test dummies and doing some heroic runs.

I couldn't get my haste down below around 17% with my gear but with crit > haste I did on average 30k over 5 million damage but with haste > crit I did 36k. (both without mirror image or flask) I've reproduced this result 3-4 times between reforging. That's on a practice dummy in SW with two nearby. I have also found that I consistently get better damage in heroic dungeons and raids with more haste.

My first question or observation is that with only 15% haste, one does not surpass 25% with three active living bombs. So, don't you basically loose ticks on your dots? Otherwise, I just can't get my results to agree with the theory. Perhaps the only thing I have added to the recommended "rotation/priority" is that I've built macros to /stopcasting, /cast .. when something procs or to refresh living bomb. In other words, I'll give up a fireball immediately when another cast is required. I'll also, with pyro, */stopcasting, /cast Pyroblast, /stopcasting, /attack) so that I don't accidentally start a long cast if it hasn't proc'd.

My gear isn't yet where I'd like it (as it may never be) but this should show my current haste>crit build

http://us.battle.net...rcière/advanced

As we say in the guide, our advice is rather general and therefore not optimal. The idea is to give something to people who do not want to indulge in theorycrafting.

If you found that stacking Haste Rating is better for your character, then you should go for it. If you want to convince me though, I'll need to see logs of you performing so much higher with Haste > Crit. Also, 5 million damage at 30k DPS is about 3 minutes of attacks without interruption; I think you need a lot more than that if you want to get consistent results.

Finally, even if you feel that Haste is better, I'm very surprised by a 6k difference between the two reforging strategies.

Regarding your armory, you are gemming pure Haste gems. You would be better off gemming Intellect/Crit or Intellect/Haste gems.

[Sorciere 1]

The haste gems were economically based - I had Lightstones but no Lava Coral. I guess it's time to go back to the farming grind.

When I cast three living bombs, my haste jumps from 23.64% to 36% and the cast time on fireball drops 10%. The improved cast time is approximately a 2k dps boost alone. Do I get yet another tick when it jumps to 36%? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm getting 10% more fireballs, doesn't that increase my crit chance by 10%? I also get velocity proc from "Insignia of Corrupted Mind which boosts haste to 47% and a 30% decrease.in fireball cast time. Add the Stolen Time tier bonus and that's a lot of haste - over 60%. It's easy to find 6k damage in there. The down side is I go oom at 6 million damage.

First, I would disagree with sites that recommend "Cunning and Cruel" over "Insignia of a Corrupted Mind" as BiS,

I would also note that crit and haste are not independent. Number of Critical Strikes increase with Haste but the amount of haste does not increase with Crit. Your overall crit plus haste is best with a haste > crit build. I would prefer to say that there is no one answer and that neither crit > haste or haste > crit is correct. The optimal lies somewhere in between and depends on the gear you have along with your reaction time. Maybe go strictly crit if you are slow to react.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Sorciere

[Damien 1,514]

The haste gems were economically based - I had Lightstones but no Lava Coral. I guess it's time to go back to the farming grind.

When I cast three living bombs, my haste jumps from 23.64% to 36% and the cast time on fireball drops 10%. The improved cast time is approximately a 2k dps boost alone. Do I get yet another tick when it jumps to 36%? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm getting 10% more fireballs, doesn't that increase my crit chance by 10%? I also get velocity proc from "Insignia of Corrupted Mind which boosts haste to 47% and a 30% decrease.in fireball cast time. Add the Stolen Time tier bonus and that's a lot of haste - over 60%. It's easy to find 6k damage in there. The down side is I go oom at 6 million damage.

I don't really see the connection. I mean, if you reforge as much Haste Rating as possible into Critical Strike Rating, you will still get +10% haste when you have Living Bomb up on 3 targets. You will also still get procs from Insignia of the Corrupted Mind. Similarly, you will also get Haste Rating from your stacks of Stolen Time. So, I don't understand how these things, which are not related to your amount of Haste, can be used to explain the 6k difference between your two experiments.

If you look at theorycrafting websites, the trend is that at entry-level DS gear, Haste Rating is slightly more desirable than Critical Strike Rating and as you improve your gear, Critical Strike Rating becomes slightly more desirable. We're talking of one stat being 10% better than the other one, at most. If you manage to reforge 1,000 Critical Strike Rating into Haste Rating, and if you are at a gear level where Haste Rating is 10% better than Critical Strike Rating, it means that by replacing 1,000 Critical Strike Rating with 1,000 Haste Rating, you gain the equivalent of 100 Critical Strike Rating (since 1,000 Haste is equivalent to 1,100 Critical Strike Rating and you had only 1,000 Critical Strike Rating). Here, we're looking at a 100-200 DPS increase maximum, not 6k.

I would also note that crit and haste are not independent. Number of Critical Strikes increase with Haste but the amount of haste does not increase with Crit. Your overall crit plus haste is best with a haste > crit build. I would prefer to say that there is no one answer and that neither crit > haste or haste > crit is correct. The optimal lies somewhere in between and depends on the gear you have along with your reaction time. Maybe go strictly crit if you are slow to react.

This is the point I'm trying to make here. It makes such a small difference whether you go for Haste or Crit that there is no way it can yield a 6k DPS difference. What can yield such a difference is the randomness associated with the Hot Streak and Improved Hot Streak mechanics.

Regarding your question about additional ticks, the next value after 25% is 37.5% (new tick of Living Bomb).

[Vladamyr 169]

My first question or observation is that with only 15% haste, one does not surpass 25% with three active living bombs. So, don't you basically loose ticks on your dots? Otherwise, I just can't get my results to agree with the theory. Perhaps the only thing I have added to the recommended "rotation/priority" is that I've built macros to /stopcasting, /cast .. when something procs or to refresh living bomb. In other words, I'll give up a fireball immediately when another cast is required. I'll also, with pyro, */stopcasting, /cast Pyroblast, /stopcasting, /attack) so that I don't accidentally start a long cast if it hasn't proc'd.

I don't understand what you are seeing on the first part there. If you have 15% haste and cast living bomb on 3 targets, your haste rating should go to 26.5% with the pyromaniac talent (1.15*1.10) ?? Could someone verify that I'm doing the math correctly?

As to the stopcasting macro's - I am highly interested if anyone else uses this? I had always thought it was a dps loss to interrupt a fireball cast to cast a Pyroblast! or Living Bomb? I would think for a haste build this would be even more counterintuitive.

I don't really see the connection. I mean, if you reforge as much Haste Rating as possible into Critical Strike Rating, you will still get +10% haste when you have Living Bomb up on 3 targets. You will also still get procs from Insignia of the Corrupted Mind. Similarly, you will also get Haste Rating from your stacks of Stolen Time. So, I don't understand how these things, which are not related to your amount of Haste, can be used to explain the 6k difference between your two experiments.

If you look at theorycrafting websites, the trend is that at entry-level DS gear, Haste Rating is slightly more desirable than Critical Strike Rating and as you improve your gear, Critical Strike Rating becomes slightly more desirable. We're talking of one stat being 10% better than the other one, at most. If you manage to reforge 1,000 Critical Strike Rating into Haste Rating, and if you are at a gear level where Haste Rating is 10% better than Critical Strike Rating, it means that by replacing 1,000 Critical Strike Rating with 1,000 Haste Rating, you gain the equivalent of 100 Critical Strike Rating (since 1,000 Haste is equivalent to 1,100 Critical Strike Rating and you had only 1,000 Critical Strike Rating). Here, we're looking at a 100-200 DPS increase maximum, not 6k.

This is the point I'm trying to make here. It makes such a small difference whether you go for Haste or Crit that there is no way it can yield a 6k DPS difference. What can yield such a difference is the randomness associated with the Hot Streak and Improved Hot Streak mechanics.

Regarding your question about additional ticks, the next value after 25% is 37.5% (new tick of Living Bomb).

I reforged you gear Sorciere and the difference is only -5% haste to reforge to crit. I agree with Damien the dps difference is going to be minimal. If you could post some Logs, at some point, so we could see fight data, that would be very helpful. I am very interested in seeing the results you are getting.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Vladamyr

[Sorciere 1]

I don't understand what you are seeing on the first part there. If you have 15% haste and cast living bomb on 3 targets, your haste rating should go to 26.5% with pyromaniac talent (1.15*1.10) ?? Could someone verify that I'm doing the math correctly?

At the time I had over 23% haste with a mostly a pure haste > crit reforging. So the pyromaniac talent would be (1.23x)*(1.10) = 1.35+. Theorietically then, it seemes I could get to the extra tick with pyromaniac but I understand it to be highly situational.

As to the stopcasting macro's - I am highly interested if anyone else uses this? I had always thought it was a dps loss to interrupt a fireball cast to cast a Pyroblast! or Living Bomb? I would think for a haste build this would be even more counterintuitive.

A valid point and one with which I will just have to experiment. I would keep only one macro and that is to /stopcasting after a Pyroblast - so it doesn't cast unless it's instant (a trick I learned playing Ret Pally with Art of War and Exorcism). I try to use it sparingly in situations where burst damage is required. I levelled as arcane and one difficult adjustment is that fire spells don't queue like arcane blast which, to me, seems to give time lost unless one is spamming the firebal key.

I reforged you gear Sorciere and the difference is only -5% haste to reforge to crit. I agree with Damien the dps difference is going to be minimal. If you could post some Logs, at some point, so we could see fight data, that would be very helpful. I am very interested in seeing the results you are getting.

I seem to be spending a lot on reforging these days . The difference could have been timing as in a mind/hand coordination issue. I'd also agree with Damien as some of the points I made were thinking in terms of adding haste instead of multiplying. But, let's say a fireball cast, with my current spellpower does 38k damage without a crit at my current spellpower with Arcane Brilliance Buff. Total damage over time would be without pyromania with just fireball is 38k/2.21s = 17.2 dps. With Pyromania active I'd have 38k/2.01s = 18.9k. That's 1.7k difference. Yet, since my gear allows about 8% variation in haste vs crit, I agree the numbers aren't explained by the stat priority alone. Yet I am nearing the 10% mentioned above so feel stuck in the middle on performance. I do have the T13 4-set bonus so need to account for that as well.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Sorciere

[Vladamyr 169]

So this morning I ran SimCraft on the Heroic BIS builds (according to Icy-Veins and SimCraft) with reforging/gemming and enchants prioritized for a Haste>Crit and a Crit>Haste setup and here are the results:

Haste>Crit

Hit - 1739

Mastery - 841

Crit - 1203

Haste - 3025

DPS = 52,180

Crit>Haste

Hit - 1739

Mastery - 841

Crit - 1842

Haste - 2386

DPS = 52,554

So in the end there is a 374 dps difference which equates to about 0.7%, that's a completely negligible amount. After seeing these results I would recommend prioritizing whichever way you feel most comfortable with. RNG, uptime, rotation and lag will have far more reaching effects than your Haste/Crit stat prioritization.

[Boradan 17]

Im currently at 2007 haste unbuffed and am fine with that. Im getting the exact same reforge suggestions from both RAWR and askmrrobot.com for my char,

http://eu.battle.net...rendra/advanced

The only thing I can see different between them is that askmrrobot is recommending rathrak/dragonfire orb and RAWR is recommending the Heroic Hagara staff (I dont have, not can be bothered farming FL to get the legendary).

I have the HC Rathrak, but only a 378 offhand, so need to wait till dragonfire orb drops for me.... between the orb and ring drops, The RNG gods seem to detest me (using the valor healing ring as it is a minor upgrade from a 378 dps ring)

I also have HC Cunning of the Cruel, but only use it when in arcane.spec.

With this gear and setup, I just did 51k dps on Madness HC tonight, and thats without getting any external buffs (DI, FM, ToTT) and am happy enough with that output.

Havent done LFR in months, so no idea what my Madness DPS is there ....

I normally wait to get an ignite over 22k along with a nice pyro before casting Combustion

Ive found it to be a dps loss to use /stopcast for the instant pyro if you are more than about 1/3 of a second into casting fireball.

I also set up a TellMeWhen icon to let me know the duration of the instant pyro buff as I will hang off casting it if there is less than 10 seconds left on the combust cooldown. I would rather have the pyro cast to be used in a combust than wait to get a hotstreak after Combust is available. If the RNG gods are unkind, you can wait 30-45 secs for a hotstreak even with my 26.6% crit (plus 5% from raid buffs).

As for living bomb, its rare that you get to cast 3 of them in a raid, so I wouldnt plan your haste around that. Then only time in DS (apart from trash) that you would be able to get 3 bombs running together would be Zon'Ozz HC during the black phase or when the adds come on Yor'Sahj

[Damien 1,514]

Im currently at 2007 haste unbuffed and am fine with that. Im getting the exact same reforge suggestions from both RAWR and askmrrobot.com for my char,

http://eu.battle.net...rendra/advanced

The only thing I can see different between them is that askmrrobot is recommending rathrak/dragonfire orb and RAWR is recommending the Heroic Hagara staff (I dont have, not can be bothered farming FL to get the legendary).

I have the HC Rathrak, but only a 378 offhand, so need to wait till dragonfire orb drops for me.... between the orb and ring drops, The RNG gods seem to detest me (using the valor healing ring as it is a minor upgrade from a 378 dps ring)

In the guide, I advise the following:

• Lightning Rod for single-target situations;
• Rathrak, the Poisonous Mind + Dragonfire Orb for multiple-target situations.

By the way, I don't know if any of you read my Mists of Pandaria preview for Fire Mages, but all these considerations will be void in the new expansion

[Boradan 17]

In the guide, I advise the following:

• Lightning Rod for single-target situations;
• Rathrak, the Poisonous Mind + Dragonfire Orb for multiple-target situations.

Unfortunately though, I only have Orb of the First Satyrs

But the RNG gods were a bit nicer to me tonight and I got Ring of the Riven :D

Edited July 26, 2012 by Boradan