Shadowcraft Sims wrong?

[Narik 1]

Piggy backing your thread because I have a related topic. Is Shadowcraft a dead site now? Icy Veins still recommends it via their subtlety dps guide, but statements within seem at odds with the results. My specific example:

I'm at ~926 gear level, have 2 energetic stabbing and no gut ripper (tho I have it thru crucible which Shadowcraft doesn't support). My 2 legendaries do not include Mantle. Shadowcraft tells me 1.405 mdps.

Replacing Will of Valeera with <random> 910 legs, and replacing 910 shoulders with 970 Mantle yields Shadowcraft result of 1.378 mdps. How can the Mantle be "mandatory" and "best legendary" if equipping it over some other legendary causes my dps to go down? Who is correct? 

[Valks 2,375]

Moving this to its own thread, since it doesn't belong in a month old thread asking for separate help.

On topic, legendary priority changes based on current stats. It's rare for Mantle not to be BiS, but it can be so. What are the stats on the pieces you are replacing? Are the shoulders BiS stats and the legs awful? 

[Carrn 284]

2 hours ago, Blainie said:

Moving this to its own thread, since it doesn't belong in a month old thread asking for separate help.

On topic, legendary priority changes based on current stats. It's rare for Mantle not to be BiS, but it can be so. What are the stats on the pieces you are replacing? Are the shoulders BiS stats and the legs awful? 

Sadly yes, the 2 best itemized stat pieces are the same slots as the legendaries.

14 hours ago, Narik said:

Piggy backing your thread because I have a related topic. Is Shadowcraft a dead site now? Icy Veins still recommends it via their subtlety dps guide, but statements within seem at odds with the results. My specific example:

I'm at ~926 gear level, have 2 energetic stabbing and no gut ripper (tho I have it thru crucible which Shadowcraft doesn't support). My 2 legendaries do not include Mantle. Shadowcraft tells me 1.405 mdps.

Replacing Will of Valeera with <random> 910 legs, and replacing 910 shoulders with 970 Mantle yields Shadowcraft result of 1.378 mdps. How can the Mantle be "mandatory" and "best legendary" if equipping it over some other legendary causes my dps to go down? Who is correct? 

Between Shadowcraft and Simcraft, I would go with the latter. I don't know how much Shadowcraft is maintained now that Fiery is effectively retired from WoW, and the Simcraft profile should be regularly updated 

As far as the Mantle is concerned, which talents are you running? If you aren't using the DfA build, there's a decent chance the guaranteed Crit chance isn't as beneficial as some other setups, because you aren't front-loading as much burst

That said, Mantle is definitely the best legendary that you can get as Sub

[Narik 1]

I am absolutely running the stock DFA build. I am done with Shadowcraft, without taking crucible into effect I don't see how it can be correct.

That said, I am trying Ask Mr. Robot - I find it more amenable to "playing around" with different gear to find the best upgrade vs. Simcraft which makes me try to decipher some crazy configuration text line to try different gear  out e.g: trinket1=mana_crystal_shard,id=134335,bonus_id=3573/605/1572/3528.... what's the line for Mantle if I want to see how things change with that? etc.

According to AMR, under every configuration (with or without Mantle - with gutrippers/weak point or energetic stabbing) - it always wants me to socket/enchant all crit, which circles back to the OP's point. I'm not so sure Mastery > Crit any more. I mean, if all the simulators are saying "go crit or go home" - shouldn't we be listening?

(as a side note, AMR does show about a ~10% upgrade to switch in Mantle over "some other" legendary, so yeah, it least it backs up that claim)

[Narik 1]

Hrm, it looks like mods broke my reply into a separate thread, so now you have no link back to the "OP" I referenced, but his thesis/question was: "why am I being told that crit stat weights are higher than mastery?"

Edited November 29, 2017 by Narik

[Narik 1]

12 hours ago, Blainie said:

On topic, legendary priority changes based on current stats. It's rare for Mantle not to be BiS, but it can be so. What are the stats on the pieces you are replacing? Are the shoulders BiS stats and the legs awful? 

Shouldn't really matter. If I essentially replace Will of Valeera with Mantle (by moving a 910 from one slot to another) - if Mantle is *SO GREAT* it should be a solid DPS increase no matter what the specifics of the 2 910's is.

Ask Mr. Robot does show about a 10% dps increase by making this legendary replacement (note proper use of the word "legendary" here).

Anyway, as I said in prior post, I've abandoned Shadowcraft, because yes I think it's dead. The corollary to this is that the reference to it in the guide should probably be removed/updated.

 

[Narik 1]

Hey FWIW, I finally did get AMR to support the theory put forth in the other thread (q: "why is my stat weight favoring crit?" a: "perhaps because you don't have mantle").

1) without mantle, "ideal" stat ratio at 925 gear level is ~12000 crit, 2000 haste, 6000 mastery/vers.

2) with mantle, "ideal" stat ratio is ~15000 mastery, 8000 vers, 2000 crit, 2000 haste.

Really liking the Ask Mr. Robot approach. Have you guys had good or bad experience with it as it translates to practical results?

[Valks 2,375]

50 minutes ago, Narik said:

Really liking the Ask Mr. Robot approach. Have you guys had good or bad experience with it as it translates to practical results?

I've normally found that it conflicts SimCraft quite a lot - we usually get a fair few comments on the guides saying "Hey, AMR tells me X, but you say Y." and then SimC ends up telling them Y as well. I personally don't use it, ever. With the creation of RaidBots, I just never see a reason to do it anymore, since that already makes SimC user friendly, while still maintaining the profiles of SimC.

[Carrn 284]

On 30/11/2017 at 1:00 AM, Blainie said:

I've normally found that it conflicts SimCraft quite a lot - we usually get a fair few comments on the guides saying "Hey, AMR tells me X, but you say Y." and then SimC ends up telling them Y as well. I personally don't use it, ever. With the creation of RaidBots, I just never see a reason to do it anymore, since that already makes SimC user friendly, while still maintaining the profiles of SimC.

I haven't used it in a very long time, but I was shown this blog post from them a couple days ago and it looks pretty neat. I plan to experiment with it and see what sorts of results it gives

[Valks 2,375]

19 hours ago, Carrn said:

I haven't used it in a very long time, but I was shown this blog post from them a couple days ago and it looks pretty neat. I plan to experiment with it and see what sorts of results it gives

Definitely let me know what you find with it

[Narik 1]

On 12/1/2017 at 9:35 AM, Carrn said:

I haven't used it in a very long time, but I was shown this blog post from them a couple days ago and it looks pretty neat. I plan to experiment with it and see what sorts of results it gives

Did you ever take a look at this? I'd still be curious to see. I've noticed Icy Veins more recent updates now fall greatly in line with the results I was getting from AMR (e.g. crit "stat weight" is massive now - and AMR still says I want crit even though I now have Mantle, etc.).