T20 vs T21

[Funchico 0]

So guys, i was wondering now if i should keep using T21(four piece) + T20 (2 piece) or should i wear the T20 (four piece) + T21 (two piece) , my sims show that using 4 pieces or tier 21 makes my dps higher but when i actually get in to a single target fight my rotation seeems to work better with the second choice.

 

Note: Thats for Single Target boss only, like garothi

[Khallid 110]

It depends on the item level of the items. If your Tier 21 is about 30 item levels above your tier 20, then you can switch, but sim it first. I don't see why the "rotation" would change with either choice. Neither tier affects rotation at all. If anything, the higher ilvl gear will end up with higher secondary stats, so you would get more Crit (and more Wild Call procs), or more Haste (and more focus regen plus shorter GCDs).

Your initial dps spike will be lower using Tier 21 4-piece than Tier 20 4-piece, obviously. The dps levels out after you get multiple uses of Aspect of the Wild. If your sims are very close it will be difficult to notice on any random parse. Or if your farm kill is very fast you might not get any bonus out of Tier 21. For example, a kill of 2:15 minutes will get 2 uses of AotW with both Tier sets.

By the way, Tier 20 2-piece can also be replaced by non-tier pieces if they are around 30 item levels higher as well. It depends significantly on which specific pieces you're switching, but chest and helm are the best to use out of tier, because they are the highest budget items.

Just as a side note, tier 20 4-piece is completely worthless for AoE, so you should prefer to use Tier 21 4-piece on any fight with cleave.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Khallid

[Funchico 0]

Khallid

 

I forgot to mention that i am a MM hunter, and the bonuses of the tier 20 helps me in single target fights because it makes me cast aimed shot faster and therefore my rotation seems to run way better.

[Khallid 110]

LMAO

Well that makes more sense.

From what I've heard Tier 21 4-piece is pretty weak on single target. The top logs are using 4-piece Tier 21 and 2-piece Tier 20, but they have 960s, so I'm guessing it's sort of similar, where you need a big item level upgrade to make it worthwhile.

It might be worth checking if your Haste falls too low when you switch to Tier 21. I think there's a breakpoint at 18%, but you didn't link your armory to check your gear. That's probably the only thing you can do if you feel like you can't fit enough Aimed Shots without the Tier 20 4-piece, but Haste is overall not a great stat for MM so don't overdo it.

[Luthixx 138]

20 hours ago, Funchico said:

So guys, i was wondering now if i should keep using T21(four piece) + T20 (2 piece) or should i wear the T20 (four piece) + T21 (two piece) , my sims show that using 4 pieces or tier 21 makes my dps higher but when i actually get in to a single target fight my rotation seeems to work better with the second choice.

 

Note: Thats for Single Target boss only, like garothi

2pc T20 and 4pc T21 will generally sim higher, but the playstyle of 4pc T20 is really really nice, especially any time you need to have movement involved, just purely for the faster aimed shots. 

I prefer to still use 4pc T21 just because the difference in sim is now almost 40k and I don't struggle all that much with movement.

[BareMoon 6]

I'm still using my 2pc T19 and 4pc T20... even though I have my 4pc T21 set. It seems as though I won't sim higher using T21 until I get mythic level tier... which is not likely to happen as our guild is still working through heroic Ant. It doesn't make any sense to me that my current gear is simming higher than heroic level T21...

Edited January 25, 2018 by BareMoon

[Luthixx 138]

11 hours ago, BareMoon said:

I'm still using my 2pc T19 and 4pc T20... even though I have my 4pc T21 set. It seems as though I won't sim higher using T21 until I get mythic level tier... which is not likely to happen as our guild is still working through heroic Ant. It doesn't make any sense to me that my current gear is simming higher than heroic level T21...

What ilvl is your T19 for it to still be simming higher? I replaced mine with two 945 items and I had 915 and 920 T19 items.

[BareMoon 6]

13 hours ago, Luthixx said:

What ilvl is your T19 for it to still be simming higher? I replaced mine with two 945 items and I had 915 and 920 T19 items.

The helm is a 910 and the cloak a 920   https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/hydraxis/moonsindar

Unless I'm not doing something right... but i think I am...

Edited January 26, 2018 by BareMoon

[Rambunxious 1]

i think using either 4 piece is a waste 4piece bonuses suck i do 2 t20 2 t21 and 2 stat pieces...

 

[Luthixx 138]

10 hours ago, Rambunxious said:

i think using either 4 piece is a waste 4piece bonuses suck i do 2 t20 2 t21 and 2 stat pieces...

 

Is this based on sims or your own feelings in game? Unless you've got 975+ titanforges in the other two slots I can't see why you'd benefit from missing out on one of the 4pc bonuses.

Edit: I really hope Rambunxious - Stormrage isn't your character, because that hunter has 4pc T21 equipped haha

[Luthixx 138]

12 hours ago, BareMoon said:

The helm is a 910 and the cloak a 920   https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/hydraxis/moonsindar

Unless I'm not doing something right... but i think I am...

Well, you were very very lucky to get 950 T20 shoulders, I never got above 915 despite having downed M Avatar. I would imagine if you went and got a T20 helm from M DI that was at least 930 (first few bosses of mythic ToS are an absolute joke to pug), you could replace your T20 legs and T19 cloak with 2pc T21 and it could be an upgrade. Buuut you could also just stick with your 2pc T19 which has pretty decent ilvls and just enjoy your high ilvl parses!

[Allseye 96]

At you guys who prefer to wear T20/T19 gear:

First question: I think you're just thinking dps-wise, aren't you? Because more ilvl ends in significant more life, which sometimes is needed. As an example: if you do the pods at highcommand mythic, you should basically be in till 25 stacks. You're healer will appreciate a bigger healthpool :-). Same in high mythic + keys, more life can be a saver.

So, i would sacrifice some dps for much more survivabilility - of course just if its needed.

Second question: Did you consider AE-fights or fights with slight AE? - Or did you just sim standard single-target patchwork fights? I thik 4p T21 isn't that bad in multitarget or even slight multitarget-situations.

[Khallid 110]

2 hours ago, Allseye said:

At you guys who prefer to wear T20/T19 gear:

First question: I think you're just thinking dps-wise, aren't you? Because more ilvl ends in significant more life, which sometimes is needed. As an example: if you do the pods at highcommand mythic, you should basically be in till 25 stacks. You're healer will appreciate a bigger healthpool :-). Same in high mythic + keys, more life can be a saver.

So, i would sacrifice some dps for much more survivabilility - of course just if its needed.

Second question: Did you consider AE-fights or fights with slight AE? - Or did you just sim standard single-target patchwork fights? I thik 4p T21 isn't that bad in multitarget or even slight multitarget-situations.

Just to further comment on it, when I switched from T19/T20 to T21 I gained about 500k HP, which I was having trouble telling if it was worth it or not, as it was a proportionally much higher HP upgrade than dps loss. I actually think it is mostly worth it for progress, but another thing I didn't immediately realize is that once you switch to full Tier 21 you also suddenly get more options. It's been a lot of months wearing 6 tier pieces and being unable to get any upgrades on any of those slots because tier tokens are much harder to roll on (you roll against Hunters, Monks, Warriors and Shamans) than just mail gear (you roll only against Hunters and Shamans). A high ilvl non-tier chest+helm can sim higher than Tier 20 because high budget items are more ilvl dependant.

You wouldn't believe how I got a 980 chest uncontested because every other mail user in my guild was wearing tier and didn't even roll on it. Once you're free of wearing 6 tier pieces at all times you can actually switch gear around and take advantage of lucky titanforges or all that gear from Mythic+ weekly caches that you can never use because it overlaps with tier, or even wear legendaries that overlap with tier pieces. It's just a nicer gearing experience to not wear 6 tier pieces.

As for AoE, 4-piece T21 is definitely better than 4-piece Tier 20 but it's not incredibly significant. Tier 19 actually has the strongest cleaving effect of all the tiers, but it's generally not useful anymore due to low ilvl. I also see most of top parsing Hunters don't even try to cleave much except on Eonar. We're definitely on the low end of cleaving power among classes, so it's generally more efficient to let better cleavers in the group do most of the adds. I have one of the top parses on Mythic High Command at 2.65M dps, but that's only about an 80 percentile parse on most other classes and almost every other spec can reach above 3 million. There aren't even that many bosses with cleave in Antorus, so I would not recommend using AoE sims to determine what gear to use.

[BareMoon 6]

On 1/29/2018 at 11:21 AM, Allseye said:

At you guys who prefer to wear T20/T19 gear:

First question: I think you're just thinking dps-wise, aren't you? Because more ilvl ends in significant more life, which sometimes is needed. As an example: if you do the pods at highcommand mythic, you should basically be in till 25 stacks. You're healer will appreciate a bigger healthpool :-). Same in high mythic + keys, more life can be a saver.

So, i would sacrifice some dps for much more survivabilility - of course just if its needed.

Second question: Did you consider AE-fights or fights with slight AE? - Or did you just sim standard single-target patchwork fights? I thik 4p T21 isn't that bad in multitarget or even slight multitarget-situations.

First... thanks guys for the great comments.

For me, I don't prefer to wear the T19/T20 gear... I'm just going by what the sims tell me as far as my dps goes... my T19/T20 is still simming higher than any of the other gear options I currently have. The settings I use in raidbot.com are 15,000 iterations, light movement, 5 minute fight. Last time I checked in current gear I was simming about 1.7m dps. I can do over 1.5mil dps fairly consistently on most single target fights and over 2mil on AOE encounters in Ant. I rarely if ever sim/gear for AOE encounters... since most of my dmg comes from my pet, beast cleave / dire beast covers any AOE I might do.