heroes Maiev PTR Patch Notes: Jan 29

[Valhalen 1,484]

6 minutes ago, SociKraft said:

Until she is nerfed into oblivion, like Malthael.

I don't think she will be nerfed. At least not so soon. Sure, she has the second highest base health of all Asssassins after The Butcher and has 15 passive armor, but ZERO self-sustain. This kinda balances it.

By looking at her talents I can see she has a lot of flexibility in her talents. She can play either as a Poker (with the Fan of Knives Build), as a CC-Heavy Bruiser (with the Umbral Bind Build) or as Ganker (with the Spirit of Vengeance Build).

Edited January 30, 2018 by Valhalen

[Morcalivan 86]

So less armour and reduced healing for Malth in early game? That armour talent was the best one. Looks like maybe ranged build might be needed more often now with the size and easier quest update. I do like the Die Alone change, and waveclear looks easier for minions but early mercs and bosses look harder now. I don't ever touch Tormented Souls, just Last Rites, so that's fine. Looks like Malth is going to rely on late game for damage, which in turn means for healing as well if I'm reading this right?

He's my favourite assassin. Hope he's ok. :'(

Edited January 30, 2018 by Morcalivan

[ArusVicious 156]

3 hours ago, Valhalen said:

I don't think she is either overpowered nor underpowered. Blizzard has been doing a great job with balancing lately. Blaze is a prime example. I don't think we ever got a Hero so balanced on launch as him.

Sure she has no sustain. That balances it a bit. But she’s actually still hard to kill. 15 base armour and at level 13 the ability to keep an additional 25 armour up almost indefinitely in a team fight is extremely strong and her ability to become immune to damage for a short time with only an 8 second cooldown is pretty powerful. 

Ive played her too and she’s extremely powerful with a good healer in my mind. Blaze is good, very balanced, and fun. I think Maiev is better in a sense with similar but more powerful control. 

It remains to be seen where she would truly lie within a tier list, considering PTR isn’t the best place to make judgments, and we should let people learn how to play her and play against her first. She still seems like she will be banned lots in ranked modes due to her ability to dodge critical attacks, deal very respectable damage, pressure the enemy team to always spread and never stack near her, and most of all because of her incredible control. If I were to guess, I’d assume she would end up being core tier, at least. 

[Plergoth 277]

10 hours ago, Jonar said:

OMG these wisened duelist changes. Why changing a talent no one ever takes when there's a superior choice in the tier.

Changing a talent to be more appealing varying on situation against the other choices on the same tier to encourage diversity and slowly phase out poorly designed feast or famine talents and have greater synergy with other talents (for example increased range on human attacks at 4 with WD) makes perfectly good sense and is consistent with other changes they make. 

[Dejo93 1,023]

5 hours ago, Valhalen said:

That would be awesome! Although I don't think Quillboars are iconic enough to be made as a Hero themselves; although we got a Faerie Dragon and a Dryad as Heroes. Nothing else surprises me.

The only place where you can find Quillboars as bosses in WoW is in Razorfen Kraul, if my memory is correct. The only one I really remember was Ragglesnout because he dropped the X'caliboar.

We'll also see them in Kul Tiras in the next expasion

[ArusVicious 156]

So far this seems to be the build I am seeing the most of.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Maxkitty

[braindelay 1]

12 hours ago, SteveFrost said:

Like Jimmy, Kerrigan,Illidan, Zeratul, Malfurion (until recently) etc and the list goes on (each one in varying degree). Part of me thinks this is to some point on purpose by them-they know players will naturally be drawn to iconic and popular characters, so if they're too powerful, they won't feel the need to get more (at least for a while) they'll be happy with these select few. Personally, I'm the kind who plays their favorites no matter what state they're in (if something's too imbaOPbroken at a time, at least I won't bring it to ranked).

I preferred Last Rites on Malthael anyways, the other heroic requires really good team com, coordination and set-up to execute and these things are really hard to find. The issue with him imho is that he lacks burst for an assassin and he relies more on sustained damage (black harvest + memento mori is still a pretty powerful combo but takes a while to get there) and being a squishy, he's very easy to kill, especially if focused.

If you're implying that those aforementioned heroes have never been strong you're wrong. Jimmy used to be by far the highest dmging hero (even though he's not meta, I'm pretty sure he still is one of them), and played every game.

Illidan used to be banned every game cause he was considered broken with Rehgar.

Zeratul could OS every non-tank (especially back in the lvl13 rewind days).

Kerrigan was top tier not long ago. She keeps bouncing between top tier and trash tier, due to her aggressive style. 

Malfurion has always been one of the highest healing output supports, he just has had a down period for some months ( but as you mention is now again fairly strong). 

[xevex 41]

11 hours ago, Maxkitty said:

So far this seems to be the build I am seeing the most of.

I seriously dont get why would any one pick Blade Dance the talent looks like the weakest of them all in that tier even Sudden Vengeance looks more appealing. Pin Down looks the best. But thats basically her basic attack build.

[Undeath 67]

18 hours ago, Plergoth said:

Changing a talent to be more appealing varying on situation against the other choices on the same tier to encourage diversity and slowly phase out poorly designed feast or famine talents and have greater synergy with other talents (for example increased range on human attacks at 4 with WD) makes perfectly good sense and is consistent with other changes they make. 

Yeah, except that no.

1) the changes don't make this talent more appealing like at all, because lose all progress on death is too punishing. This is the reason why this talent is never picked in hl and it will remain this way after the changes.

2) this talent still competes with aa range increase which is and will remain on the same tier with duelist, and is superior choice compared to wisened duelist. So no idea what synergy you are talking about.

3) buffing underperforming talents in most cases either makes them first priority pick or still underperforming.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Jonar

[Valhalen 1,484]

1 hour ago, Jonar said:

Yeah, except that no.

1) the changes don't make this talent more appealing like at all, because lose all progress on death is too punishing. This is the reason why this talent is never picked in hl and it will remain this way after the changes.

2) this talent still competes with aa range increase which is and will remain on the same tier with duelist, and is superior choice compared to wisened duelist. So no idea what synergy you are talking about.

3) buffing underperforming talents in most cases either makes them first priority pick or still underperforming.

If anything, I think they should NERF the damage bonus, but make it permanent once Greymane reaches full stacks. That would be a better solution.

[Plergoth 277]

2 hours ago, Jonar said:

Yeah, except that no.

1) the changes don't make this talent more appealing like at all, because lose all progress on death is too punishing. This is the reason why this talent is never picked in hl and it will remain this way after the changes.

2) this talent still competes with aa range increase which is and will remain on the same tier with duelist, and is superior choice compared to wisened duelist. So no idea what synergy you are talking about.

3) buffing underperforming talents in most cases either makes them first priority pick or still underperforming.

Sorry, my bad, I always mix things up in my head at the best of times and the end of the month has a lot on my mind, my apologies. 

Talents like Wizened Duelist are risky to take but they still have a place in the game nonetheless. Regardless of the game mode, players should be taking talents on a per game and situation basis. A cocktail build might not always be best for example but if you're playing against cheese - TLV on Garden of Terror, split push comps and so on - then Wizened Duelist, Untouchable and other talents exist for the teams who wish to adapt and respond in kind. They are situational talents; that doesn't inherently make them bad, and the change is a good start; trying to get a quest completed that depends so heavily on the other team either playing Murky or poorly while playing recklessly yourself is an outdated design.  

Buffing and changing underperforming talents is still a better alternative than just leaving them in the game to exist as trap talents or removing them entirely, and while it'll be likely be chosen less than Cocktail or Bullets, it provides a higher skill ceiling for the hero, and it could be a huge thing to have completed for 16 and then lvl 20 upgrades. I'm not the world's biggest fan of stack quests that drop all progress regardless of you completing it or when people pick them with low experience on the hero or understanding the odds of them even completing it, but I acknowledge that these options should exist in the game to provide variety and reward skilled play and teamwork. Hopefully if they intend to keep this sort of thing in the game they'll change them more to make it relevant vs. the popular options. 

[SteveFrost 97]

13 hours ago, braindelay said:

If you're implying that those aforementioned heroes have never been strong you're wrong. Jimmy used to be by far the highest dmging hero (even though he's not meta, I'm pretty sure he still is one of them), and played every game.

Illidan used to be banned every game cause he was considered broken with Rehgar.

Zeratul could OS every non-tank (especially back in the lvl13 rewind days).

Kerrigan was top tier not long ago. She keeps bouncing between top tier and trash tier, due to her aggressive style. 

Malfurion has always been one of the highest healing output supports, he just has had a down period for some months ( but as you mention is now again fairly strong). 

keywords: varying degree.

Jimmy was probably of the strongest when it was just him and the other release heroes lul. Ever since he has been steadily dropping until he reached today's low. Yeah, he's pretty reliable, but that's just not good enough. He functions basically as a Tracer counter (longer range + knockback) but even then he's not picked (have seen it like 1-2 games) and Tracer herself isn't that strong anymore. His and Kerri's kits (Envenom, Specialist talents) are showing their age I believe and something needs to be done about it.

Could go into lengths about the others as well but tl;dr the "big names" in their majority aren't particularly strong atm and kinda disappoint their fans.

Edited January 31, 2018 by SteveFrost

[Valhalen 1,484]

58 minutes ago, SteveFrost said:

His and Kerri's kits (Envenom, Specialist talents) are showing their age I believe and something needs to be done about it.

Envenom lol.

Raynor is in dire need for a rework. Kerrigan, on the other hand, has been seeing her fair share of victories while using that neanderthal talent tree; pretty much like Sonya.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Valhalen

[ArusVicious 156]

9 hours ago, xevex said:

I seriously dont get why would any one pick Blade Dance the talent looks like the weakest of them all in that tier even Sudden Vengeance looks more appealing. Pin Down looks the best. But thats basically her basic attack build.

Actually, if you do the math, blade dance actually adds more damage than pin down when it’s fully complete. That probably changes with scaling, but it’s actually very hard to hit 3 enemies with Fan of Knives. Good enemies won’t stack, so there is a chance you will never complete the quest. 

Also, blade dance is very consistent, and hits often, while Fan of Knives can be a bit difficult to use to its full potential. It is also easily the best talent for her basic attack build, as it benefits from all of the buffs that increase her physical damage. In addition, it even does a respectable amount of additional damage to a single target if you use Fan of Knives on them while close to them. Sudden Vengeance looks great at first, but when you are playing against good players you will generally find it hard to hit them unless you are in melee range. There is also a very short time you have to activate the ability, and it forces you to use blink more offensively than you would otherwise, which can be detrimental in certain ways, to both your survivalability and enemies. On paper Blade Dance might look bad, but ingame and with a lot of comparison, it’s actually a good and competitive talent and the best one for the physical damage build.

I personally think the physical damage build on her is the strongest, especially when empowered with the blink granted armor at level 13 combined with the damage buff for keeping it up at level 16, and with Naishes Momento. That turns her into an extremely deadly melee assasain who with a fatal basic attack that can do significant damage to an enemy and punish any enemy near them significantly, in combination to her already powerful multi target damage with Fan of Knives and the 40 armor she can often keep up for a long time just makes her all that more deadly. And best of all, it gets rid of one of her lesser weaknesses; single target damage.

I just seem to find the Knives build pretty situational, due to the fact that it has little benefit on single target and is limited to multi target. The spirit build isn’t bad on either, but it’s also a bit situational as well. It does force you to use spirit of vengeance more offensively, which can be detrimental if it is used at the wrong time. Don’t get me wrong, it does good damage, but it just doesn’t stand out enough to me. However, the Shadow Armor talent at level 13 imo should always be taken no matter what build you use due to the highest average uptime. 

Feel free to agree or disagree with me, these are just my opinions, but they are up for discussion.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Maxkitty

[xevex 41]

2 hours ago, Maxkitty said:

Actually, if you do the math, blade dance actually adds more damage than pin down when it’s fully complete. That probably changes with scaling, but it’s actually very hard to hit 3 enemies with Fan of Knives. Good enemies won’t stack, so there is a chance you will never complete the quest. 

I did the math. A half finished Pin Down adds as much dmg as Blade Dance. A fully finished Pin Down adds 81 additional spell dmg instead of 54 physical dmg that Blade Dance adds.
But indeed there are multiple other talents that will affect this talent. After getting Bonds of Corruption it deals 66 dmg to pulled heroes. 
Still not as much as Pin Down. After getting Armored Assault it does 72 dmg while the talent is proced. Combined with Bonds of Corruption 90. So yeah it does more dmg to pulled heroes for 3 seconds after lvl 16. 

If i understand the talent correctly, if not this is just boogus and both talent deal same dmg but one must be completed for that.

Basically if the cap is 30% then Blade dance is better with the auto attack build if it caps with 45% then Pin Down is better overall. 

Alarak has some tricky quests but that doesnt mean they are impossible or even that hard. Fan of Knives is a ranged ability and can be use from the bushes, etc. I certainly think that the quest is easier then Alaraks lightning and discord strike quests. Also you have Umbral Bind. If you manage to pull 4 heroes you complete the quest instantly. 

Well no matter how i look at it. The talent is situational you are not always in melee range when you are hitting your target with Fan of Knives so everytime u use it from non-melee range, its the same as if you skip the talent tier. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by xevex

[ArusVicious 156]

1 hour ago, xevex said:

Basically if the cap is 30% then Blade dance is better with the auto attack build if it caps with 45% then Pin Down is better overall. 

It might be, I’ll have to test it. I feel like they are both good talents though. Blade dance has the advantage of being almost a free zera cleave instead of relying solely on aim, but the biggest advantage is that you get it early and can benefit from it instantly. I feel like at lower levels Pin Down might be the choice considering you can often hit 3 or more, but at higher levels maybe Blade Dance because people won’t clump up against Maiev as much so it will be harder to hit them or even tether them into a hit. 

Still remains to be seen which one is more chosen, better, and all the stuff that hotslogs shows us when she comes on live.

[ArusVicious 156]

12 hours ago, xevex said:

Basically if the cap is 30% then Blade dance is better with the auto attack build if it caps with 45% then Pin Down is better overall. 

After testing it out, it caps at 30%. So basically it does the same damage as Blade Dance but without the benefits of being increased in ways that the physical damage of Blade Dance has. That means Blade Dance is generally a much better talent, and it makes the auto attack build all that much more powerful than it's alternatives. The only disadvantage that I see for Blade Dance is how you need to be in melee to benefit, but that happens often anyways. The other thing that stands out in comparison to Pin Down is that you can benefit from it immediately, which can result in an early game advantage, and in some cases can lead to a win due to fights early on being won in ways that might have been different. 

[MasterKast 15]

On 29.01.2018 at 11:48 PM, Stan said:

Pings: Ping icons that appear overhead have received updated visual effects.

i dont think that was necessary. cursor on the other hand.....

[Valks 2,377]

1 hour ago, MasterKast said:

i dont think that was necessary. cursor on the other hand.....

It's still a nice-ish QoL kind of thing! 

[SteveFrost 97]

On 31/1/2018 at 4:55 PM, Valhalen said:

Envenom lol.

Raynor is in dire need for a rework. Kerrigan, on the other hand, has been seeing her fair share of victories while using that neanderthal talent tree; pretty much like Sonya.

When a Hero's talent tree is so bland,restrictive and doesn't do much to help the one-dimensional playstyle, it should get an overhaul regardless of current win % imho- she's basically another pre-rework Tyrael (talent choices measured by hand) right now, minus the popularity

[xevex 41]

11 hours ago, Maxkitty said:

After testing it out, it caps at 30%. So basically it does the same damage as Blade Dance but without the benefits of being increased in ways that the physical damage of Blade Dance has. That means Blade Dance is generally a much better talent, and it makes the auto attack build all that much more powerful than it's alternatives. The only disadvantage that I see for Blade Dance is how you need to be in melee to benefit, but that happens often anyways. The other thing that stands out in comparison to Pin Down is that you can benefit from it immediately, which can result in an early game advantage, and in some cases can lead to a win due to fights early on being won in ways that might have been different. 

One other thing. Blade Dance does proc block talents. Same thing about blinds most likely. Her basic attack build is indeed most likely the best but i think she looks very versatile so im sure her spell dmg build will be as good if not better. Considering Fan of Knives is faster then her basic attack if it hits 2 heroes. Well well see I have stocked up on gems and gonna buy her day one. Her Epic skins look sick! 

[ArusVicious 156]

36 minutes ago, xevex said:

One other thing. Blade Dance does proc block talents. Same thing about blinds most likely. Her basic attack build is indeed most likely the best but i think she looks very versatile so im sure her spell dmg build will be as good if not better. Considering Fan of Knives is faster then her basic attack if it hits 2 heroes. Well well see I have stocked up on gems and gonna buy her day one. Her Epic skins look sick! 

Yeah I was so hyped I decided right away to buy gems in advance, and I might even go one step further and get more for her Epic Skins. I mean, who doesn't want to play one of the most iconic characters in Blizzard's history? 

Also I do in fact like her basic attack build the best. Then again I've only really played the builds against AI on the PTR due to ridiculous queue times, but considering it is somewhat easy for enemies to avoid stacking hard for you to take advantage of Fan of Knives, I think the basic attack build is the best, ESPECIALLY because it turns Naisha's Memento into a killer talent that can break a teamfight into your favour. 

Then again, like you said, it remains to be seen. We have to wait and I'm certainly really hyped!

Edited February 1, 2018 by Maxkitty

[ArusVicious 156]

Do note I saw a stealth nerf to Maiev on the PTR. Her passive armor is down from 15 to 10 now. That’s pretty much it. In other words a relatively minor change.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Maxkitty

[Valhalen 1,484]

14 hours ago, xevex said:

Her Epic skins look sick! 

Really? I find regular Maiev much more appealing than that Hellwarden skin. I particularly like the Ivory recolor.