heroes Maiev Balance Changes: Feb 9

[Stan 5,248]

A new patch is now live with changes to Maiev. The Warden's survivability was higher than intended, which allowed her to get a lot of resets on Fan of Knives. As a result, Blizzard removed the armor gain from Vault of the Wardens and slightly lowered her damage output.

Blizzard (Source)

Our most recent Heroes of the Storm patch is now live containing balance changes to Maiev, The Warden.

Heroes

Assassin

Maiev

Stats

• Basic Attack Damage reduced from 162 to 150
• Base Maximum Health increased from 2150 to 2236
• Health Regeneration increased from 4.48 to 4.66

Abilities

• Fan of Knives (Q)
  • Damage decreased from 180 to 170
• Vault of the Wardens (D)
  • No longer grants passive Armor

Talents

• Level 1
  • Naisha's Memento (Active)
    • Bounces no longer deal bonus damage
• Level 16
  • Armored Assault (Passive)
    • Physical Damage bonus decreased from 35 to 25%
    • Now activates if Maiev has any amount of bonus Armor

Developer Comment: Maiev has arrived in the Nexus and seems to be obliterating her foes (as she should) but is slightly deadlier than we intended. The Warden’s survivability is currently too high, which allows her to get tons of resets on Fan of Knives while ignoring enemy threats. To address this, we’re removing her armor gain from Vault of the Wardens, while slightly lowering her damage output so that she has to stick around in the fight a little longer to take down her opponents. After these changes, we’ll continue to keep an eye on Maiev to be sure that she has enough survivability to perform her melee Assassin role, without it feeling like her enemies have little-to-no options for counterplay.

[SteveFrost 97]

Dang, they were pretty fast this time. RIP in Pepsi Naisha's Memento :(

[SMOrcMan 76]

I really wish they'd do some more changes to worse heroes. Every balance update seems to affect the overall better heroes.

[Laragon 269]

What is the point of a PTR... to gather data. Every pro player or streamer, or even casual, that played her on it could tell she was busted. How did she make it live with zero changes. They need to probably still do more CD work on her skills. Q resets WAY too easy and D is way too short. but at least this is a start.

[Orshova 31]

28 minutes ago, SMOrcMan said:

I really wish they'd do some more changes to worse heroes. Every balance update seems to affect the overall better heroes.

If they make all the characters weak then none will be op :)

[ArusVicious 156]

40 minutes ago, SteveFrost said:

Dang, they were pretty fast this time. RIP in Pepsi Naisha's Memento :(

Still a powerful talent. 

[Donir 8]

I'm glad they took away that armor, it was too much in my opinion. Also AA damage was too high, didn't even needed to use skills to kill some squishies.

[SteveFrost 97]

16 minutes ago, Maxkitty said:

Still a powerful talent. 

Perhaps, but now it'll become situational

[ArusVicious 156]

2 hours ago, SteveFrost said:

Perhaps, but now it'll become situational

Bonds of Justice is not necessarily a superior talent. It still seems like the best on it's row. Abilities that provide bouncing attacks are very powerful and should not be underestimated. And even though it got nerfed a lot through the removing of the extra bounce damage, Armored Assault, and Basic Attack nerfs, she still has a very strong Basic Attack, so I personally believe it to be strong in teamfights and quite a talent to pass up. 

[leapingshadow 50]

In the wise words of Nozdormu, "Not entirely unexpected."

[Yridaa 490]

In the wise words of Garrosh Hellscream,

[SteveFrost 97]

16 hours ago, Maxkitty said:

Bonds of Justice is not necessarily a superior talent. It still seems like the best on it's row. Abilities that provide bouncing attacks are very powerful and should not be underestimated. And even though it got nerfed a lot through the removing of the extra bounce damage, Armored Assault, and Basic Attack nerfs, she still has a very strong Basic Attack, so I personally believe it to be strong in teamfights and quite a talent to pass up. 

The bonus damage helped you clear waves and push faster and skirmish/teamfight better that's why it hurts so bad imho. Now, it just adds up a bit of aoe damage, like giving your autos splash (cleave), Reminds me the treatment Slipstream got which, with all the consecutive nerfs, became pretty much the definition of useless talent. Not saying Naisha's Memento became like that, but like you said, it lost a lot of its value (and if they touch it one or more times, it'll probably have the same fate) I think it's only worth now if you go for aa build (while prior I believed it to be the best choice no matter what, it offered so much that early in the tree).

Edited February 10, 2018 by SteveFrost

[ArusVicious 156]

1 hour ago, SteveFrost said:

The bonus damage helped you clear waves and push faster and skirmish/teamfight better that's why it hurts so bad imho. Now, it just adds up a bit of aoe damage, like giving your autos splash (cleave), Reminds me the tratment Slipstream got which, with all the consecutive nerfs, became pretty much the definition of useless talent. Not saying Naisha's Memento became like that, but like you said, it lost a lot of its value (and if they touch it one or more times, it'll probably have the same fate) I think it's only worth now if you go for aa build (while prior I believed it to be the best choice no matter what, it offered so much that early in the tree).

In terms of builds it looks like it's down to AA and Q builds now. I still think an AA build is the best just because it can really hurt a team comp and takes away a bit of her lack of ST damage. But it's certainly something worth watching for, considering the optimal and most used build can change very quickly.

[Valhalen 1,485]

I knew she was going to get nerfed. She is way too strong, pre-nerf Garrosh levels of power with Umbral Bind defining team fights. With the first 3 days of release she was sitting at 65% win rate, which is pretty high (though we all know that Hotslogs can't be 100% trusted). I'm surprised (and relieved) they didn't rework her Umbral Bind to inflict stun rather than pull opponents (like they did to Garrosh's Groundbreaker), but I wouldn't be surprised if they did that to her in the future.

With the nerfs I'm already seeing less Maievs per match (I haven't seen mirror match Maiev yesterday). While I'm not concerned about the nerfs, I'm glad they didn't just nerf her, but rather tweaked to get some balance. The changes to Armored Assault were pretty good.

[leapingshadow 50]

I bought and played Maiev after these nerfs and having not played her before this point. She feels relatively ok. I feel like I can output a ton of damage to a lot of enemies but that is inherently a flaw since if I am against multiple people, then they're going to focus me and i'm going to die as a result.

[Neain2008 0]

That's kinda the point of the adjustment, she CAN be focused down. She was really hard to kill pre adjustment. From the previews (youtube mainly) it seemed like they wanted an assassin that could be powerful if played correctly. Then they seemed to have given us a hero that almost ANYONE could bring out that power. QM ended up being heavily tilted in favor of the team that had her in it. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Neain2008
capitalization

[ArusVicious 156]

8 hours ago, leapingshadow said:

I bought and played Maiev after these nerfs and having not played her before this point. She feels relatively ok. I feel like I can output a ton of damage to a lot of enemies but that is inherently a flaw since if I am against multiple people, then they're going to focus me and i'm going to die as a result.

Do keep in mind that with good tanks and healers as well as good skilled use of Vault of the Wardens, she can avoid many powerful CC abilities and stay alive while inflicting tremendous amounts of damage to the enemy team.

11 hours ago, Valhalen said:

With the nerfs I'm already seeing less Maievs per match (I haven't seen mirror match Maiev yesterday). 

She's more balanced now, but I still like to think of her as game defining in the hands of a skilled player. The main reason you are seeing less Maievs is the same reason as to why you would see less of any specific hero after a nerf. People think they aren't as worth playing as they used to be. But do keep in mind her base kit is extremely powerful, and many of her talents remain powerful too, even if they are less so than they used to be.

11 hours ago, Valhalen said:

I'm surprised (and relieved) they didn't rework her Umbral Bind to inflict stun rather than pull opponents (like they did to Garrosh's Groundbreaker), but I wouldn't be surprised if they did that to her in the future.

I really hope they never do that to her. That change may have relieved us of the 'Garrosh Frenzy', but it ultimately destroyed him. I don't think they will do that to her in the future though, considering there are ways of avoiding being pulled. But turning it to a stun would make the ability worthless, as having to run out of range to stun an enemy would be very weak. I also think Blizzard would be careful about any changes to Maiev, because I'm sure even they would understand that nerfing one of the most iconic Blizzard characters ever into oblivion would make many players very angry. But, time will tell with her. As of now, it looks like the intention is in fact for her to be game defining, just not broken.

[leapingshadow 50]

10 hours ago, Maxkitty said:

Do keep in mind that with good tanks and healers as well as good skilled use of Vault of the Wardens, she can avoid many powerful CC abilities and stay alive while inflicting tremendous amounts of damage to the enemy team.

It's probably just the fact that the games I play are in Quick Match and i'm not that great so a decent team and team build aren't there.

[Valhalen 1,485]

3 hours ago, leapingshadow said:

It's probably just the fact that the games I play are in Quick Match and i'm not that great so a decent team and team build aren't there.

Maiev can be pretty hard to use if you solo queue on QM. I recommend queueing with at least 2 people so you have some team synergy and get more follow ups; because Maiev can become pretty useless if she is the only Hero with some kind of crowd-control (which is not uncommon to see on QM where you see Hanzo and/or Genji on every match).

[xevex 41]

On 2/9/2018 at 11:58 PM, Maxkitty said:

Bonds of Justice is not necessarily a superior talent. It still seems like the best on it's row. Abilities that provide bouncing attacks are very powerful and should not be underestimated. And even though it got nerfed a lot through the removing of the extra bounce damage, Armored Assault, and Basic Attack nerfs, she still has a very strong Basic Attack, so I personally believe it to be strong in teamfights and quite a talent to pass up. 

Bonds of Justice stacks are incredibly forgiving. Having 10 stack doubles the pull dmg late game and it can stack into infinity. After you get Cruel Chain the dmg you deal by pulling becomes ridiculous. These 2 have incredible synergy. 

On 2/10/2018 at 4:57 PM, Valhalen said:

With the nerfs I'm already seeing less Maievs per match (I haven't seen mirror match Maiev yesterday). While I'm not concerned about the nerfs, I'm glad they didn't just nerf her, but rather tweaked to get some balance. The changes to Armored Assault were pretty good.

Less wait times for us, Right? I agree her basic attack build was just overtuned. Most of the time i run the Chop-Chop build. 
https://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/maiev#30.0!1112111

11 hours ago, Valhalen said:

Maiev can be pretty hard to use if you solo queue on QM. I recommend queueing with at least 2 people so you have some team synergy and get more follow ups; because Maiev can become pretty useless if she is the only Hero with some kind of crowd-control (which is not uncommon to see on QM where you see Hanzo and/or Genji on every match).

Its like playing Alarak in QM with the not so safe heroic. You jump in and you die and your teammates watch you die. lol

[ArusVicious 156]

4 hours ago, xevex said:

Its like playing Alarak in QM with the not so safe heroic. You jump in and you die and your teammates watch you die. lol

I giggled a little bit because of how true that statement is.

[Valhalen 1,485]

6 hours ago, xevex said:

Bonds of Justice stacks are incredibly forgiving. Having 10 stack doubles the pull dmg late game and it can stack into infinity. After you get Cruel Chain the dmg you deal by pulling becomes ridiculous. These 2 have incredible synergy. 

Less wait times for us, Right? I agree her basic attack build was just overtuned. Most of the time i run the Chop-Chop build. 
https://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/maiev#30.0!1112111

Its like playing Alarak in QM with the not so safe heroic. You jump in and you die and your teammates watch you die. lol

I have mixed feelings about Cruel Chain because the bonus damage is wasted if you spend too much time trying to get as many stacks as possible and the enemy end up not being pulled. When it does work, it's awesome, though.

Personally, I like running Maiev with this build alongside a friend of mine that mains ETC solely because of Block Party, which will trigger Armored Assault. Also, Mosh Pit is fantastic at getting those Fan of Knives resets. I'd say ETC is arguably the best pair for Maiev, alongside Uther.

[xevex 41]

4 hours ago, Valhalen said:

I have mixed feelings about Cruel Chain because the bonus damage is wasted if you spend too much time trying to get as many stacks as possible and the enemy end up not being pulled. When it does work, it's awesome, though.

Thats where Elune's Wrath comes in. It basically doubles the stack you get from Fan of Knives. So you need to hit like 2 times and you still have 1.5 seconds to pull with 25% increased movement speed, not to mention the range of Fan of Knives is pretty forgiving so you can even get the stacks from the edge of the pull. 

Imo people are majorly overestimating her basic attack build. Her basic attacks are slow and dont deal as much dmg as Fan of Knives. Trying to deal dmg with basic attacks usually gets me killed fast. It may be powerfull with Shadow Orb: Huntress but until then i feel like its pretty suicidal. Fast chopping gets you the dmg in a short time and you can retreat if you need to, basic attacks are just too slow before Huntress. 

I also dont understand why is Naisha's Memento a optional talent in the guide lol. A basic attack build with out it is not even worth doing. 

5 hours ago, Maxkitty said:

I giggled a little bit because of how true that statement is.

Sad thing is. That Maiev is the same in QM. You jump in chain people, pull them then get focused down while your teammates are watching behind you doing nothing. I seriously dont get people. When i see someone jump in, i jump in too, its natural. Im not talking about being overextended plain as day, in that case its better to just the "hero" die alone but a normal dive i follow up its always the right option.

Edited February 12, 2018 by xevex

[Valhalen 1,485]

1 hour ago, xevex said:

Thats where Elune's Wrath comes in. It basically doubles the stack you get from Fan of Knives. So you need to hit like 2 times and you still have 1.5 seconds to pull with 25% increased movement speed, not to mention the range of Fan of Knives is pretty forgiving so you can even get the stacks from the edge of the pull.

Hmm, that's interesting. I had no idea that Elune's Wrath contributed to Cruel Chain's bonus damage. That should be noted in the guide, definitely.

1 hour ago, xevex said:

Imo people are majorly overestimating her basic attack build. Her basic attacks are slow and dont deal as much dmg as Fan of Knives. Trying to deal dmg with basic attacks usually gets me killed fast. It may be powerfull with Shadow Orb: Huntress but until then i feel like its pretty suicidal. Fast chopping gets you the dmg in a short time and you can retreat if you need to, basic attacks are just too slow before Huntress. 

I also dont understand why is Naisha's Memento a optional talent in the guide lol. A basic attack build with out it is not even worth doing. 

Her attack speed is average, at 1.11, while her basic attack damage is 150 (at level 1), which is the third highest of all Assassins, after Trhall (172) and Ragnaros (171). Even in the Physical Damage build, I'd consider Bonds of Justice superior than Naisha's Memento once the quest is completed, which is not hard to do.

[ArusVicious 156]

9 hours ago, xevex said:

Sad thing is. That Maiev is the same in QM. You jump in chain people, pull them then get focused down while your teammates are watching behind you doing nothing. I seriously dont get people. When i see someone jump in, i jump in too, its natural. Im not talking about being overextended plain as day, in that case its better to just the "hero" die alone but a normal dive i follow up its always the right option.

That's generally what QM lacks; cooperation. Unless you go in with a party of 5, it's likely you aren't going to find much strategy or cooperation at all. And Maiev is still banned almost all the time in any draft mode even after her nerfs so it's very unlikely you will get to play her unless you are first pick and are lucky enough to see her get past the first bans.

7 hours ago, Valhalen said:

Even in the Physical Damage build, I'd consider Bonds of Justice superior than Naisha's Memento once the quest is completed, which is not hard to do.

I personally like Naisha's Memento better just for it's niche in being able to stand out in teamfights. Even if Bonds of Justice has the advantage of being effective against a single target, I do feel that it doesn't have the pure teamfight power than Naisha's does. If you are playing against good players too, they will try their very best to not stack as to avoid getting many people pulled by Umbral Bind, ultimately limiting the amount of stacks you can get. Also do note that the bounce range for the attacks given from Naisha's is very decent. However this is just my opinion, and I'm not going to judge anyone who likes Bonds of Justice more. Opinions are very valuable, and I'll be careful to only challenge them occasionally to spark discussion, instead of cutting them out of the picture and devaluing them.