ToT Gear -> SoO Gear DPS Comparison

[Zagam 1,982]

So, here are two Thok kills, separated ONLY by gear.  Unreal how out of hand gear scaling has gotten. 

 

[Storm 426]

It's been like this since Wrath. each new tier dps goes up almost 2x. By the time content is 2 tiers old it might as well be last expansion because gear is on a whole other level.

 

Typically dps inflation from the begining to the end of an expansion is around 3-8x from 'heroic dungeon gear' to 'fully end tier raid geared'. MoP is right on target to fall in that range. a fresh 463 geared 90 with decent skill could be expected to do 40-60k dps in T14. and now at the end of the expansion in full T16 gear 300-400k is right in the middle of the 3-8x inflation. 

 

Here are some average dps number off the top of my head for all of the expansions (not including Vanilla because I didn't raid back then). It isn't entirely empirical because I'm just pulling some average numbers I remember seeing out of my head. but they should be a pretty good representation for dps inflation.

 

All numbers are roughly what dps were pulling the first few weeks of the very first raid, and then fully geared in the final raid.

 

BC: 700 dps in Kara -> 2.5k dps in Sunwell = 3.5x inflation (the lowest of any not including Vanilla

Wrath: 2k dps in Naxx -> 15k dps in Heroic ICC = 8x inflation (the highest of any expansion)

Cataclysm: 10k dps in BWD (the only time overall dps dropped) -> 40k in DS = 4x inflation

Pandaria: 50k in MSV -> 300k in SoO = 6x inflation

[Zagam 1,982]

It's insane!  The factors stay close, but the raw damage is exploding exponentially.

 

I'm also looking at your WotLK example.  It went from 2k in T7 to 15k in T10, but there were 4 tiers.  Every xpac after that, only 3 raiding tiers per xpac, so that's likely your reason for it being the highest inflator factor.  I have a screenshot of my first Cho'gall kill where I was top DPS at 14k.  The loss in DPS from ICC to Cata was explained for two reasons:

 

1) they decided to reset all the way to Naxx values of Haste and Crit, and they added a new stat called Mastery which was supposed to be a balancing mechanic (didn't end up that way) so the stat budget got divided by 3 and

2) ICC had a 30% buff which MADE people feel weaker in Cata when in fact, they weren't.

 

It's going to be hilarious going back down to 5k HP pools and doing 2-3k DPS.  It'll almost be like Final Fantasy numbers where people are running around with 3k-5k HP.  At least 25 mans won't lag the shit out anymore with all the number crunching the game has to do.

[Omaric 246]

Lol @ 9999 HP/damage cap.

[Zagam 1,982]

Break Damage Limit Talents.

[Rakupenda 15]

I'm looking forward to the squish, actually. Thinking about some old fighting games with 400 Giga million damage with fifty zeroes...Then any of you who play/ed DnD and other RPing type games with single points of damage...I'd like to see the game in the few thousand DPS range myself. Seems adequate rounding for % damage debuffs like Haunt and stacking debuffs like Agony.

 

Imagine if they went the route of a fixed HP pool like they do with mana.

[Zagam 1,982]

Fixed HP pool would never work or the bosses would never be able to get much stronger.

[Storm 426]

A hard cap on HP would be nice, but I don't know about a fixed number. Something like capping HP at 20k so tanks that stack stam have maximum number they can aim for. but then have the average dps/healer have around 10k.

 

I wish there was also more emphasis on dps and healers actively choosing to equip survival stats like stam and magic/physical resist. Instead of just giving stam based on ilvl of the gear, it should be something that dps and healers need to consciously make a decision to get on some of their gear so they have enough to survive the encounters. Sure, this will allow some warlocks and mages to become 'glass cannons', but if they can survive then all the more power to them.

 

Blizzard is so worried about the game always being balanced, and not having any holes that easily break a fight, but sometimes half the fun is making a fight trivial by stacking fire resist gear.

[Omaric 246]

Blizzard is so worried about the game always being balanced, and not having any holes that easily break a fight, but sometimes half the fun is making a fight trivial by stacking fire resist gear.

 

Stacking resist gear = least fun thing ever.

[Rakupenda 15]

Fixed HP pool would never work or the bosses would never be able to get much stronger.

Do they need to get stronger every tier? Think of how it is now: You get more gear, your HP goes up, next tier bosses hit harder and have more hp, healers heal more to replenish the larger hp pool and you do more damage. It is already zero sum. The numbers are just getting bigger.

 

Do you remember ToGC/ICC where tanks could get one-shot the bosses were hitting so hard that they went 100%+ avoidance to try and mitigate it? If you had the unlucky RNG to get past that avoidance twice in a row with cooldowns your tank would die. That was already Blizzard's "oh shit" moment with this item level explosion: Tanks have more hp and avoidance, make bosses hit harder to humble them again. Then they reworked how tanking functioned so they didn't have to make the bosses hit harder, but instead made the tanks steadier damage via 50% reduced damage from block (or whatever it is) instead of 100% reduction of block and other changes like that.

[Rakupenda 15]

Stacking resist gear = least fun thing ever.

Don't you miss the old resistance buffs at least?

[Omaric 246]

I prefer the current system of having active CD's to mitigate damage.  That's way more fun to me than passive resistances.  I feel dirty on IJ glyphing UR to be passive so that I have ample damage reduction for the mines.  SacPact/GoSac/dat glyph.

 

I counter ask you:  Don't you enjoy popping a CD and totally ignoring certain mechanics because you're OP?

[Kazistrasz 216]

I prefer the current system of having active CD's to mitigate damage.  That's way more fun to me than passive resistances.  I feel dirty on IJ glyphing UR to be passive so that I have ample damage reduction for the mines.  SacPact/GoSac/dat glyph.

 

I counter ask you:  Don't you enjoy popping a CD and totally ignoring certain mechanics because you're OP?

 

I really, really do not. I enjoyed the days of MC where you wanted Fire Resist on your gear, especially for tanks, even as late as WotLK when you wanted Frost Resist for Sapphiron. I miss the days of being able to stack a particular resist and warlock tank a boss like Illidari Council, part of Illidan, or Twin Emps.

 

Also, yeah, this gear scaling as been so out of hand since WotLK it's sad. I've been saying since the start of WotLK how out of hand it would eventually get. It started when they started jumping 13 item levels every tier. 

[Omaric 246]

Fair enough.  It's probably the tank in me that enjoys that kind of mitigation.  :P

 

I'm also the kind of person who can't stand automatic vehicles.  If it doesn't have a stick I'm bored.

[Rakupenda 15]

I prefer the current system of having active CD's to mitigate damage.  That's way more fun to me than passive resistances.  I feel dirty on IJ glyphing UR to be passive so that I have ample damage reduction for the mines.  SacPact/GoSac/dat glyph.

 

I counter ask you:  Don't you enjoy popping a CD and totally ignoring certain mechanics because you're OP?

Our first Garalon kill was due to me popping DB and letting dots tick for another 8 seconds after the massive damage hard enrage ground slam. So yeah, it's kinda neat to have a OP cooldown like that. UR + DB, Pop Twilight Ward, Click off DB after the massive damage hits to double dip on UR.

 

Yeah, it's great having a ~82% damage reduction (1 - (1-.4 UR)*(1-.5 DB)*(1-.4 UR Double Dip)), 70% without double dip + Twilight Ward absorbing 100k of the damage (because DB is shadow damage) + Soul Leech shield 15% of your HP to absorb even more and the damage being dealt over 8 seconds rather than instantly so you can pop healing CD's (Dark Regen, Healthstone, Drain Life, Cauterize Master, replenish some of the Soul Leech) or just plain get healed back to full.

 

Thing is...if Blizzard wants there to be a truly hard enrage (everyone dies at 6 minutes 0 seconds) or a 100% fatal mechanic if you get hit by it, they just add in a "You die" code sequence rather than "You take massive damage".

 

Omaric...you like on-use trinkets don't you?

[Omaric 246]

Haha, yeah unfortunately that's the only use I've seen for PvE this expansion with DB, surviving the enrage for a bit.  Otherwise I've found SP to give much more consistent damage reduction.  Those are really fancy moves though!

 

As for trinkets, if you asked me about a year ago I'd tell you that I don't want another damn button.  Now, I'd just macro it to Dark Soul and be happy.  :P

[Rakupenda 15]

Haha, yeah unfortunately that's the only use I've seen for PvE this expansion with DB, surviving the enrage for a bit.  Otherwise I've found SP to give much more consistent damage reduction.  Those are really fancy moves though!

 

As for trinkets, if you asked me about a year ago I'd tell you that I don't want another damn button.  Now, I'd just macro it to Dark Soul and be happy. 

If you want consistency, use Soul Link. That's 20% consistent 100% of the time...strike that, reverse it? Anyway...

 

Is one of your profs engineering by chance?

[Omaric 246]

I use GoSac generally so I don't see that extra DR.  I suppose I should clarify though that I meant a more consistent CD.  700k+ shield on a 1 min CD is extremely powerful and reliable throughout the fight, especially considering its ridiculous duration.

 

And nope, I made a goblin ele shaman from scratch in Cata and did that whole mess all the way through Dragon Soul.  It was fun, but once is enough.  Tailoring/Enchanting for me.  Useful, easy *and* I can make money off of gear I replace.  Go, go Spirits of War!

[Rakupenda 15]

Yeah, I know. Just nit-picking your choice of words, lol. I used to use SacPact over DB when we had the old Soul Link. Now unless I'm in a solo-soaking situation, I fall back on Soul Link for the consistent damage reduction and 3% passive healing.

 

Ok. Damn, I was hoping you'd say yes so I could pull the "10 sec cooldown for on-use items".  The on-use trinkets conflicting with Engineering gloves - by design they never line up. Why is this the case anyway? It was terrible for Firelands when Demo used the Moonwell Chalice just before metamorphosis snapshot - you could never benefit from Engineering's gloves.

[Kazistrasz 216]

BC: 700 dps in Kara -> 2.5k dps in Sunwell = 3.5x inflation (the lowest of any not including Vanilla

Wrath: 2k dps in Naxx -> 15k dps in Heroic ICC = 8x inflation (the highest of any expansion)

Cataclysm: 10k dps in BWD (the only time overall dps dropped) -> 40k in DS = 4x inflation

Pandaria: 50k in MSV -> 300k in SoO = 6x inflation

 

Just to clear this up, some of your numbers are very off. 700dps in Kara was actually kind of bad. 1k was more likely, and in Sunwell you wanted about 3-3.5k Still about the same inflation, but it starts to play out later.

 

If you were doing 2k DPS in Naxx40 you were absolutely garbage. Absolute max DPS for warlocks (since RNG was not such a thing as it is now), was consistently 6.3k, which only went up to 6.9k in Ulduar. People pulled 3.5k-4k in greens, and 5k was an average player in Naxxramas. 15k seems slightly low to me, but I'll believe it.

 

10k at the start of Cata was, again, maybe possible if you were wearing greens and still sucked. Someone with a 350 item level could easily pull 20k DPS, about the same as where some classes left off in ICC. I wasn't around for DS, but that number seems off as your average raider in full Firelands normal mode gear was pulling 30k, with heroic going up to 35k. I'm willing to believe the numbers for DS were closer to 50k.

 

Also, 50k for MSV might have been wearing blues, but at 483 item level (LFR), when I had first come back and hit 90, I was pulling 80k.

 

By the end of the expansion, your average for SoO with people having more gear will probably be closer to 325k.

 

Using these numbers, BC was about 3-3.5x growth, with Wrath being about 3.5x as well, Cata being about 2.5x, and MoP being about 4x. Cata was the only expansion without this ridiculous growth, but up until MoP Cataclysm was the only expansion with only three tiers and no "not quite tiers". Vanilla had T1, T2, T2.5 (AQ), and T3. BC had T4, T5, T6, and Sunwell. WotLK had four official tiers with T7 through T10. Cata had T11, T12, and T13, and that was it. So, really, we've been seeing about a 50% increase per tier since the end of Vanilla, with MoP exploding to about a 100% increase per tier.

[Storm 426]

Wall of text

 

I'm basing my numbers going from heroic dungeon geared AKA the sort of numbers you pulled day 1 of walking into the first raid. compared to fully geared at the end of the last tier.

 

I was doing 1k dps on my rogue by the end of kara. but in full heroic blues I was only doing about 700k. You may be right on the 3.5k though in Sunwell, but there were honestly only a few classes that could hit that high (namely warlocks and shamans).

 

Same thing with Wrath and Cata, and MoP. I'm basing all those starting numbers off an average number people could expect in their first raid shortly after hitting level cap and getting a heroic dungeon set together.

 

that and also, i said they weren't super accurate, just what I remember seeing on my meters, and some of them are like 6 years ago now, so I'm sure it's not 100% accurate. the overall inflation from start to finish pretty much holds up though.

[Omaric 246]

This thread got nit-picky fast, jebus, haha.

"Actually, there were *twelve* bread crumbs on that table, *not* eleven." *sips tea*

[Kazistrasz 216]

Omaric, the difference is the rate of growth. My argument is that it was relatively constant up until MoP.

[Storm 426]

the 4 tiers in Wrath is a really good point though. I didn't think about that. and if every raid is increasing the overall dps roughly 2x then 1 extra tier is enough to explain why Wrath increased by like 8x while other expansions were closer to 3-4x. Looking at it that way MoP has ballooned much faster than previous expansions.