Destruction Nerf Inevitable

[Omaric 246]

Yes, but without procs Affliction is just as basic.  Don't let DoT's fall off, keep Haunt up whenever it drops and fill with MG.  I can do that blind as well, but there's no point because procs exist and are a core part of the game.  Why train for something that will never happen?

 

You don't need to play blind to train yourself to audio queues, assuming there is nothing wrong with any of your sensory feels.

[Ilion 8]

...

 

 

 

Why would anyone train a non-proc rotation? I'd say it would only help create really bad habits.

 

On a completely unrelated topic, thank you, you're the first person to spell my name without two L's.

[Rakupenda 15]

Why would anyone train a non-proc rotation? I'd say it would only help create really bad habits.

 

On a completely unrelated topic, thank you, you're the first person to spell my name without two L's.

I practice all the time for the parts of the rotation that are done no matter what is going on:

Refreshing Immolate in pandemic range (With more skill: with procs)

Conflag on CD with one or less charges (With skill: Utilizing your backdraft procs effectively, not wasting them on Chaos Bolt unless necessary)

Incinerate to generate embers or while moving

Chaos Bolt/Shadowburn at 3+ embers (with skill: During Int Procs, Havoc)

RoF with multiple targets (with skill: Haste procs)

[Omaric 246]

I practice all the time for the parts of the rotation that are done no matter what is going on:

Refreshing Immolate in pandemic range (With more skill: with procs)

Conflag on CD with one or less charges (With skill: Utilizing your backdraft procs effectively, not wasting them on Chaos Bolt unless necessary)

Incinerate to generate embers or while moving

Chaos Bolt/Shadowburn at 3+ embers (with skill: During Int Procs, Havoc)

RoF with multiple targets (with skill: Haste procs)

 

There's a difference between practicing parts of your rotation and practicing a basic rotation blindly.

[Rakupenda 15]

There's a difference between practicing parts of your rotation and practicing a basic rotation blindly.

Don't skim read.

 

"I practice all the time for the parts of the rotation that are done no matter what is going on:"

Not

"I practice parts of my rotation" or whatever you read.

 

Things that have to be refreshed and/or used at regular intervals regardless of what procs are going out-- getting a feel for the underlying rotation. If you aren't used to casting Conflagrate every 15 secs, weaving a Chaos Bolt when Immolate doesn't need refreshing (maintaing 100% uptime), and fully utilizing your Backdrafts, how can you possibly optimize around these spell priorities around trinket procs?

 

It's like looking at Affliction logs and noticing they aren't casting many Haunts or not using all of their Dark Souls they can in a fight. Those are fundamental knowledge inequities that come through experience. Shit, without promoting this basic  rotational knowledge you may as well be telling 'em to focus on stat priorities.

 

Once you've got those basic triggers set as second nature ("oh, Conflagrate has two charges, I'd better fix that." "Oh, I'm at 3 embers, I should cast Chaos Bolt soon" "Oh, my Immolate is about to fall off, I had better reapply it."), then you move onto the higher skilled proc utilization: " have some embers, and an Int Proc! Let's do some Chaos Bolts!" Lastly...stat priorities.

 

Anyone try speedcubing with a Rubik's cube? Remember memorizing your PLL (and your OLLs?) Did you immediately jump into that your first time picking up a cube or did you learn beginners method first? And why did you do beginners method? To get familiar with the color scheme, to get used to the way the cube moves, etc. Same thing with beginner locks.

[Omaric 246]

I didn't skim.  I know exactly what you mean.  There is merit to practicing parts of your rotation individually to get them all working well as a whole.  I understand that.  My point in that post was to convey that that is a much better way of approaching getting better at a spec, rather than how well you can do a blind rotation, as was referenced earlier. (not by you)

 

I don't think anyone here is condoning *not* practicing your rotation.

[Rakupenda 15]

I didn't skim.  I know exactly what you mean.  There is merit to practicing parts of your rotation individually to get them all working well as a whole.  I understand that.  My point in that post was to convey that that is a much better way of approaching getting better at a spec, rather than how well you can do a blind rotation, as was referenced earlier. (not by you)

 

I don't think anyone here is condoning *not* practicing your rotation.

My first post was in response to:

Why would anyone train a non-proc rotation? I'd say it would only help create really bad habits.

Where Ilion made the claim the only thing gained from non-proc rotation is bad habits. It is very useful as a starting point for beginners.

[Omaric 246]

Gotcha, but we're currently just discussing derivatives of what we were initially talking about, which was a completely blind rotation.  From that we derived no proc rotations.  From no proc rotations we derived piecemeal rotations.

 

The original point in response to Kazistrasza that myself and I assume Ilion was going for was that blind rotations aren't optimal.  Then again, that's my opinion and everyone is different.  It's entirely possible that we have superstar Warlocks that look like Illidan when they raid.

[Kazistrasz 216]

Why would anyone train a non-proc rotation? I'd say it would only help create really bad habits.

 

On a completely unrelated topic, thank you, you're the first person to spell my name without two L's.

 

Because the basics come before the more advanced stuff. It only creates bad habits if that's all you ever do and you don't go from there. The basics are just as important. If you're not keeping Immo up, and you're not burning off excess embers, and you're using Backdraft on Chaos Bolt, even if you have stellar average Chaos Bolts, your DPS is going to suffer dramatically. It's amazing how many people can have good average CB damage but a 60% uptime on Immolate or a small amount of damage from CB despite the average due to using Backdraft on it and reducing ember gen from Incinerate. The same holds true for Affliction. You can know when your procs are up all you want, but if you're using SB:SS for refreshing or you're letting your DoTs fall off, you're bending yourself over on the meters. There's a certain feel you develop for when things are going to happen that is important to have.

 

I'm in no way saying you should learn to do the basic rotation as the main guide for IV would say (not Zag's, that other one doesn't do a good a good job explaining using procs and until recently was still saying to gem red). I'm saying to do that as a practice to have it down and have the feel for it and a general sense of the timing to mean less having to watch timers and more watching the fight.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Kazistrasza

[Soulzar 42]

I donno..... for me the basic rotations to any class/spec are "easy".

 

Its learning how to maximize procs and knowing what to do in a multitude of various combinations and situations that turns you from basic, to advanced.  

 

IMO, this can be said about any spec or class in the game.

[Liquidsteel 279]

This is every spec in the game.  With enough practice, it all becomes second nature.  The DIFFICULTY decreases, but the COMPLEXITY does not. 

 

I just feel like people are confusing complexity with difficulty.  One never changes and the other changes with experience.

Yeah I see where you are coming from. I think you're right.

 

Let me expand on my thoughts about the specs a bit more. I agree that Affliction perhaps is a bit more complex on paper with juggling the 3 dots + haunt. However I feel that once you can track and refresh one dot, you can do it with all of them. I think affliction is a bit easier to play because once you've got it down, you're all set to go. Having to move as 10 stack BBoY comes up is no problem, because you can just Soulburn those dots on the move.

 

With destruction, I think it's a bit harder mechanically. You need to time that chaos bolt with BBoY perfectly or boom you just lost one million damage. Havoc can be a bit fiddly when trying to snipe 3x shadowburn (I've noticed this A LOT more since I switched to 25 man last week). Movement can really fuck you up, and it can be a bit more fiddly with trying to time big chaos bolts with procs and making sure you snipe those shadowburns.

 

Fire and Brimstone aoe rotations can also be quite tricky to get started especially when they're done immediately on the pull. Many people fall into the pit hole of opening with immolate and lose a lot of damage etc.

 

TL:DR: I agree that affliction may be more complex on paper, but I find it's a lot more fluid when you're in the groove, whereas destro has to contend with more external influences. 

 

I hope my post conveyed what I was trying to say.

[Omaric 246]

Reallllly don't see starting with FaB Immolate as a pit hole, but to each their own.

 

If people are opening for over 2 million easy on Galakras I'll believe you, but the ilvl best be on par.

 

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k7lge8z0utlfam60/sum/damageDone/?s=9661&e=10100

[Zagam 1,982]

Starting with FnB Immolate when you have one Ember is a mistake.  With two Embers, it's fine. 

 

TL;DR for 9 pages of crud:

1) Destro is powerful

2) We're not crying about it

3) We don't want nerfed

4) If we get nerfed, we'll be ok with it

5) We won't be surprised if we get nerfed

6) Everyone plays their Warlock in their own special way

[Omaric 246]

Point me to a more impressive, non-FaB Immolate opener on Galakras and I'll believe you.  :D

 

I will continue using my own special way until then my friend!

[Lockybalboa 618]

My head hurts

[Omaric 246]

Go on.....

[Zanzal 6]

.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Zanzal

[Omaric 246]

http://youtu.be/PXeqmBVRlIw

[gahhda 95]

Well, I hope you guys are staying versed in other specs.  Trends are showing Destruction picking up and taking off to the point that it can't be left unchecked.  Here is some of the data...

 

Source: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10H/100/14/60/default/#1111111111111111111111100000000000

 

10m H Top 100 Parses DPS

Overall Score: #1 (5 percentage points over #2) 

 

#1 Immerseus (67k over #2)

#1 Norushen (2k over #2)

#1 Sha of Pride (34k over #2, Fury Warriors, and 58k over #3)

#1 Galakras (28k over #2, Elemental Shamans)

#1 Dark Shamans (33k over #2, Affliction)

#1 Spoils of Pandaria (29k over #2, Fury Warriors)

#2 Iron Juggernaut (9k behind #1, Affliction)

#2 Nazgrim (14k behind #1, Affliction, still well above average)

#2 Malkorok (3k behind #1, Affliction, 11k over #3, Fury)

#4 Thok (#1 is Affliction)

#7 Fallen Protectors (#1 is Affliction by a landslide)

 

NO DATA on Siegecrafter, Klaxxi, and Garrosh.  Seeing that many fights where Destruction is that far ahead is discerning.  When Destruction isn't the best, Affliction is, which is more concerning overall.  Personally, I think it's because most of the good players gravitated away from Demonology in why that spec isn't performing well on Raidbots. 

 

Situation isn't the same with 25 man.  Apparently in 25s, Fury Warriors are leaking to the top with the ocassional Destruction/Affliction appearance.

 

Personally, I can't see how it's justifiable to leave Destruction where it's at.  It's getting out of hand like Demo and Arcane did in ToT.  Do NOT be surprised if you see a nerf coming in the next week or two.  I'd estimate taking something away from Immolate.  It is hitting so hard right now, it's unreal.  Affliction is still creeping up and will continue to do so as heroic raiders gather more gear.  Demonology is going to make a climb back into the ranks if a nerf is announced to either Affliction or Destruction.  I'm going to be working on Demonology in the next couple of weeks because I think most skilled Warlocks are just avoiding the spec all together, especially without PBI. 

 

Also, for those that are like 'well, that's just Heroic top parses"...it's happening in normal, too.  It's happening everywhere, all the time.  I think Destruction is as overpowered in PvE as Warriors are in PvP right now.

 

TL;DR: Brace yourself, I think nerfs are on the horizon.

 

Immerseus - can we look at damage done to the boss and not hilariously padded on adds for logs where the destro lock did literally 95% of the raids add damage?

 

Norushen - Add fight, has nothing to do with buffs we've received and everything to do with the fact that if they nerf shadowburn it will be useless single target.

 

Sha of pride - see immerseus

 

Galakras - literally trash, are we really going to analyze the balance of trash dps?

 

Dark shamans - Combination of our strong 4 target cleave on pull, which many other specs match us on, and our ability to again...two shot adds...ringing a bell to immerseus and sha of pride anyone?

 

Spoils - Galakras 2.0 with slightly less hilarious aoe

 

IJ - We're very strong single target right now, no argument here but in the context of specs that people don't even play, *cough* SUBT *cough*, being in the top 5, single target is rather well balanced these days.

 

Nazgrim - HELLO ADDS, ITS LIKE THE FIGHT DESIGNERS READ MY FRIGGEN MIND!

 

Malkorok - Combination of our strong single target, strong pooling mechanics to reduce dps loss of moving, and the fact that HAVOC SHADOWBURN IS OP

 

Fallen protectors - We have pretty strong 3 target cleave via rof/immolate, and during some intermission phases we can aoe, not op but strong.

 

Thok - If played properly you can pull destro boss damage above most other specs, just not nearly as much as affliction can...however destruction is very strong for nuking bats down in a matter of seconds via unending + FaB.

 

 

In short: The only reason destruction can possibly be considered op is because of the same broken mechanic that made it better on 3 of the fights in ALL of tier 14, back when affliction was literally 20% ahead of most specs. The only way to nerf destruction is to nerf shadowburn.

 

Options:

Nerf shadowburn damage - Results in it being useless single target and dropping out of the rotation entirely.

Nerf ember generation - Would cripple our small target cleave. However, considering its current state, cutting it to refunding a single ember, the cost of its use, may be a good idea for balancing, but removes a fun part of destruction's playstyle in rewarding you for sniping adds.

Make shadowburn consume THREE STACKS OF HAVOC - How it should have been from the start of the expansion.

 

Put one more notch on the belt of easy solutions I've proposed that will get ignored by blizzard in lieu of some idiotic chaos bolt nerf that will more than likely happen.

Edited November 4, 2013 by gahhda

[gahhda 95]

Point me to a more impressive, non-FaB Immolate opener on Galakras and I'll believe you. 

 

I will continue using my own special way until then my friend!

 

Just be cool like me and sit at 80% crit chance on pull and have your immolate refund all the embers instantly anyway *l0l*.

[Omaric 246]

Just be cool like me and sit at 80% crit chance on pull and have your immolate refund all the embers instantly anyway *l0l*.

 

That's why I love you.

[Brown 14]

Damnit if you didn't beat me to it I was going to post that youtube clip.

 

I almost think just for lolz shadowburn should consume 2 stacks of havoc and then someone imagines a way to ZOMG TELL GC HAVOC GLYPH EXPLOIT!!!

[Zagam 1,982]

*stuff*

Options:

Nerf shadowburn damage - Results in it being useless single target and dropping out of the rotation entirely.

Nerf ember generation - Would cripple our small target cleave. However, considering its current state, cutting it to refunding a single ember, the cost of its use, may be a good idea for balancing, but removes a fun part of destruction's playstyle in rewarding you for sniping adds.

Make shadowburn consume THREE STACKS OF HAVOC - How it should have been from the start of the expansion.

 

Put one more notch on the belt of easy solutions I've proposed that will get ignored by blizzard in lieu of some idiotic chaos bolt nerf that will more than likely happen.

Yeah, you pretty much pointed out all the mechanics that seemed to be designed.  But they fully admit that they don't balance specs based on anything EXCEPT encounter design (and a small bit of PvP).  So they tuned Warlocks specifically for this tier with the recent changes, but I think they over did it. 

 

Which was the whole point of this thread that seemed to gather a lot of dustmites along the way.