crit/mastery over haste/mastery?

[Zemnis 0]

been looking at logs and it seems since i raid 10 man destro is better than aff atm. was wondering since mastery/crit is the main stats is it better to stack taht than haste/mastery?

[JvChequer 43]

Some fights destro is better, another fights Affli is better.

 

There is no such thing nowadays as "the only and primordial spec for raiding". for us.

 

Both Haste and Crit are nearly equally good, depend on which kinda of fight it's.

 

The difference stacking one or another it's pretty low.

 

What u can do to forget about all this "wibbly wobbly stats winey" it's just reforging both equally.

[Ilion 8]

Destro is all about mastery stacking, you should try to balance haste/crit.

[Zemnis 0]

ya im stacking mastery already with exp/mastery in red/yellow sockets and hit/mastery in my blue sockets. but looking at meters 90% of the fights in 10 man destro is dominate.

[Ilion 8]

ya im stacking mastery already with exp/mastery in red/yellow sockets and hit/mastery in my blue sockets. but looking at meters 90% of the fights in 10 man destro is dominate.

No one said otherwise.

[Zemnis 0]

well my main concern is this.... most locks i see are getting tier helm, shoulders, chest and gloves for 4 set and getting the pants from iron jug... well if crit/mastery is better since destro is the more dominate spec wouldnt it be better to get the helm, shoulders legs and gloves for tier and then the chest from thok? since the chest off thok and the tier legs are crit/mastery?

[Ilion 8]

well my main concern is this.... most locks i see are getting tier helm, shoulders, chest and gloves for 4 set and getting the pants from iron jug... well if crit/mastery is better since destro is the more dominate spec wouldnt it be better to get the helm, shoulders legs and gloves for tier and then the chest from thok? since the chest off thok and the tier legs are crit/mastery?

 

We're a month and a half in the patch, people just get what they can to get their 4-piece fast.

[Zemnis 0]

idk most locks i see are doing that i dont think its just a b/c its all they can get im sure tier pants and the thok chest piece have dropped for them before? i just dont want to stack the wrong stat and i know crit and haste are pretty close to each other just trying to find out the BEST stat possible to maximize my dps.

[JvChequer 43]

There is no worst stats for destro.

 

Just use 4tp + best off piece u have.

 

Your main concern should be how to play properly, not how to increase your reforging optimization from 98% to 100%.

[Ilion 8]

idk most locks i see are doing that i dont think its just a b/c its all they can get im sure tier pants and the thok chest piece have dropped for them before? i just dont want to stack the wrong stat and i know crit and haste are pretty close to each other just trying to find out the BEST stat possible to maximize my dps.

 

There is no BEST stat apart from mastery, it depends on the situation. Just balance them.

[Astynax 24]

been looking at logs and it seems since i raid 10 man destro is better than aff atm. was wondering since mastery/crit is the main stats is it better to stack taht than haste/mastery?

 

 

So, I'm not saying I know everything here. I'm certainly no Zagam or Omaric, and if they tell you I'm wrong, I'm definitely wrong as can be.

 

In short, stats are dynamic because of the way they stack with themselves. The weights of each stat changes depending on how much you have of others.

 

Long answer: My simcraft, which matches what I see/feel pretty closely, is telling me that our stat weights are int>hit>mastery>haste>crit. I'm sitting at ~15% haste unbuffed last time I did this. Essentially more spells is always a good thing, and a DPS increase. It only becomes a DPS loss when you start clipping your GCD on backlashed incinerates. From what I'm seeing, this appears to be about 25% raid buffed (and this is not including bloodlust haste). That is assuming you have 0 lag and amazing reflexes. In reality, it's going to hit more around the 15-19% mark, when you factor in the rest. From here on, I find myself clipping my own GCD, and hurting my DPS. After this mark, crit is more valuable to me than haste, but before it, I'm getting more DPS from having a decent haste threshold.

My strategy has been to hit my 21% threshold in affliction, since I dual spec, and then give everything I can all the mastery I can. This leaves me not clipping my GCD a considerable amount, if at all (depending on MS at any given time), and still getting plenty of spell casts off without feeling that I'm spending forever on any given spell.

 

Hope this helps. 

Edited October 29, 2013 by Astynax

[Kazistrasz 216]

For every spec mastery is the ultimate king in stats. Destro works well with taking crit after mastery, but mastery is still your ultimate stat. That said, Destro also works well with the 10124 haste cap if you're really focusing on using Immolate a lot for multidotting. Zagam does that. The reason so many of us don't is because with all your stuff up, you'll start GCD clipping with Incinerate.  You can play it either way. Affliction wants a haste breakpoint and then stacking lots of mastery. You can do the 13737 breakpoint or the 9778 breakpoint, though I don't recommend the 13737 until you have lots of gear. I currently have 15.2k mastery and 9.3k crit with 5.6k haste as Destro. If I did my stuff for Aff, I can either go with 15.1k mastery, 4.8k crit, and 10k haste (AMR won't get me closer to the haste cap) or 11.3k mastery, 4.8k crit, and 13.8k haste. That's really not a lot of mastery, so even at my 559 item level, I won't push that mush haste for quite a while (maybe when I'm closer to 570).

 

Your secondary stats aren't going to change your DPS more than 5-10k at most.

 

Also, like everyone has said, people are using whatever they can get for their 4 piece. If you have the choice, I argue that shoulders are the better off piece. It's the only slot that we don't get mastery on with our tier stuff. That's just my take. I also do that because not only can we get mastery on them, but we can mastery with crit, and I do the mastery/crit build for Destro. Don't be picky; get whichever pieces you can.

[Kazistrasz 216]

So, I'm not saying I know everything here. I'm certainly no Zagam or Omaric, and if they tell you I'm wrong, I'm definitely wrong as can be.

 

In short, stats are dynamic because of the way they stack with themselves. The weights of each stat changes depending on how much you have of others.

 

Long answer: My simcraft, which matches what I see/feel pretty closely, is telling me that our stat weights are int>hit>mastery>haste>crit. I'm sitting at ~15% haste unbuffed last time I did this. Essentially more spells is always a good thing, and a DPS increase. It only becomes a DPS loss when you start clipping your GCD on backlashed incinerates. From what I'm seeing, this appears to be about 25% raid buffed (and this is not including bloodlust haste). That is assuming you have 0 lag and amazing reflexes. In reality, it's going to hit more around the 15-19% mark, when you factor in the rest. From here on, I find myself clipping my own GCD, and hurting my DPS. After this mark, crit is more valuable to me than haste, but before it, I'm getting more DPS from having a decent haste threshold.

My strategy has been to hit my 21% threshold in affliction, since I dual spec, and then give everything I can all the mastery I can. This leaves me not clipping my GCD a considerable amount, if at all (depending on MS at any given time), and still getting plenty of spell casts off without feeling that I'm spending forever on any given spell.

 

Hope this helps. 

 

Even with SimCraft, your scale factors are significantly less important. You're correct in saying that stats interact with each other in weird ways. SimCraft will show you that interaction, but it isn't with scale factors. It will do reforge plots for you, showing you how your DPS changes as you swap points between stats. Like you said, it assumes perfect play, but it also assumes completely single target with no movement and can't appropriately an actual fight. In short: don't rely too heavily on SimCraft.

[Soulzar 42]

Generally shoulders is the preferred off piece as it is the only one that does not have Mastery on it.  Shoulders from 2nd or 3rd boss work great.

 

Max Mastery anywhere you can, balance haste and crit.  If you play an off spec, there may be some haste breakpoints worth going for, if not don't worry about them.

 

I currently run with 17k mastery, 7k crit, 6.9k haste

[Astynax 24]

Even with SimCraft, your scale factors are significantly less important. You're correct in saying that stats interact with each other in weird ways. SimCraft will show you that interaction, but it isn't with scale factors. It will do reforge plots for you, showing you how your DPS changes as you swap points between stats. Like you said, it assumes perfect play, but it also assumes completely single target with no movement and can't appropriately an actual fight. In short: don't rely too heavily on SimCraft.

 

Yeah. It's just the best estimation/stat weight determinant that I've found to date. Wish there was something with more accuracy. Although IDK how the toggle factors like "light movement" are really calculated.

[Zagam 1,982]

Best off-piece are the Mast/Crit shoulders from Norushen.  The Mastery/Hit ones are second best from Protectors.  Since these are accessible Heroics, this makes the most sense, especially while progressing. 

 

"Best-in-Slot" is theoretical and dependent on your group's accessibility to gear.  Thok's chest piece is only BiS for you IF you have access to it.  If your guild is 2/14H, then Thok's piece isn't BiS for you.  When you have all the bosses done, BiS is a novelty idea and unnecessary.  Think of BiS as BPA, Best Possibly Acquired.

[Rakupenda 15]

Chest:

Ilvl 574 Heroic Tier

2290 Int

1442 Crit

1641 Mastery

3 Red Sockets

 

Ilvl 580 HWF Thok Chest:

2435 Int

1664 Crit

1664 Mastery

2 red, 1 yellow

 

Net:

+65 Int (includes loss of red socket)

+222 Crit

+343 Mastery (includes yellow socket)

 

Shoulders:

Ilvl 574 Heroic Tier

1720 Int

872 Crit

1349 Haste

2 Red Sockets

 

Ilvl 580 HWF Norushen Shoulders

1827 Int

1179 Crit

1284 Mastery

Red Blue

 

Net:

+27 Int (includes loss of red socket)

+307 Crit

-1349 Haste

+1284 Mastery

+160 hit (Blue socket)

 

You can get 540 mastery from the tier shoulders by reforging 40% haste, so net:net:

Net:Net:

+27 Int (includes loss of red socket)

+307 Crit

-809 Haste

+744 Mastery

+160 hit (Blue socket)

 

Shoulders Minus Chest:

-38 Int

+85 Crit

-809 Haste

+561 Mastery (401 + 160 hit theoretically reforged from another piece)

 

Heroic tier chest off of Sha and HWF shoulders off of Norushen is best goal for most as they are the third and fourth bosses. The difference is negligible, especially if you're running Demo/Destro. It's what I'm currently running (since I coined heroic chest and the shoulders myself) until I can grab the HWF Chest/tier shoulders as off-pieces when the other cloth uses don't need to upgrade a normal piece.

[Zagam 1,982]

BiS also eludes to the premise that secondary stats are the primary contributor to your DPS.  I wish people put as much effort into analyzing their logs as they did pieces of gear.

[Kazistrasz 216]

BiS also eludes to the premise that secondary stats are the primary contributor to your DPS.  I wish people put as much effort into analyzing their logs as they did pieces of gear.

QFT

[Silverman 0]

The way i see it, the most important thing you have to pay attention are, to get 4 set pieces and 2 trinkets. The rest is just playing around and optimizing. In the end take what you can get and you will make more dps, than if you wait for certain pieces. It won't make much difference between BIS and not BIS, except you only have hit/crit-gear or something like that.

The difference between complete BIS and WIS(worst in slot) after you have the 2 trinkets and 4 set-pieces is just 5%. And realistically even less, because if you take everything you can get(I'm not talking here about greed, but about a healthy amount of taking something before it goes to some offspec or will be disenchanted or you will get outgeared too much by other players), you will automatically get some bis or nearlybis pieces.

[Rakupenda 15]

The way i see it, the most important thing you have to pay attention are, to get 4 set pieces and 2 trinkets. The rest is just playing around and optimizing. In the end take what you can get and you will make more dps, than if you wait for certain pieces. It won't make much difference between BIS and not BIS, except you only have hit/crit-gear or something like that.

The difference between complete BIS and WIS(worst in slot) after you have the 2 trinkets and 4 set-pieces is just 5%. And realistically even less, because if you take everything you can get(I'm not talking here about greed, but about a healthy amount of taking something before it goes to some offspec or will be disenchanted or you will get outgeared too much by other players), you will automatically get some bis or nearlybis pieces.

Adding to this, you could literally take whatever piece has higher Ilvl and do just fine (except trinkets and tier pieces). Does it have higher Ilvl? Yes, get it.

[Soulzar 42]

The way i see it, the most important thing you have to pay attention are, to get 4 set pieces and 2 trinkets. 

 

Well damn... lol

 

Guess i'm screwed :(

[Drafty53 17]

Just to add, it might be as simple as what OS they play and if they use it on fights. If a MS destro is using Aff as his/her OS for fights like Thok, Iron Jug, Malk and possibly Protectors, then the Haste after mastery would be ideal. If they play Demo as their OS then the Crit or balanced Crit/haste might be a better build. Its too early in the tier for people to have OS pieces for most slots. The fact is, most warlocks are playing destro MS and aff OS, so the haste over crit seems to work out better.

[Gravyspasm 70]

 I wish people put as much effort into analyzing their logs as they did pieces of gear.

 

 

that's too much work, yo.   i only have time to visit a site to let a robot tell me i'm 100%.  

[Rakupenda 15]

 The fact is, most warlocks are playing destro MS and aff OS, so the haste over crit seems to work out better.

 

Can always reforge the pieces with crit into haste. The 9778 breakpoint isn't that hard to reach at these Ilvls (or even the 10124 for Destro) especially with PBI or BBOY trinkets.