heroes Medivh & Sonya Rework Meta Tier List (March 2018)

[ArusVicious 156]

39 minutes ago, Peaches9 said:

I must say I'm surprised there's five specialists in Core. Nazeebo and Sylvanas I can understand, since they offer solid teamfight damage in addition to their specialist duties, but I can't say the same for Azmo and Zagara (Abathur I won't comment on since I find it hard to measure his impact on a game, and I think it varies wildly based on player skill). What builds or strategies put those two this high? Should they be all-out splitpushing, or balancing this with providing the team with supplementary dps?

Azmo and Zagara have certainly seen a decline in popularity and usefulness. Zagara is undeniably the better of the two however, especially if she makes good use of Devouring Maw or Nydus Network. She also provides great vision of the battlefield. Azmodan has little aside from his globe, beam, and the global demon summon. 

As for Abathur, I've seen him rise in popularity lately. He has the ability to turn agressive melee heroes into nuisances. He also has great soak and lane pressure. He has a niche and relies a ton on his comp, but he's good in the right circumstances. 

And of course, Nazeebo and Sylvanas are great. For pure pushing, I like Sylvanas better, but Nazeebo is really good with that too, but has even more teamfight power.

[MrPumpson 4]

5 hours ago, Peaches9 said:

I must say I'm surprised there's five specialists in Core. Nazeebo and Sylvanas I can understand, since they offer solid teamfight damage in addition to their specialist duties, but I can't say the same for Azmo and Zagara (Abathur I won't comment on since I find it hard to measure his impact on a game, and I think it varies wildly based on player skill). What builds or strategies put those two this high? Should they be all-out splitpushing, or balancing this with providing the team with supplementary dps?

I have a lot of success with Azmo. But I save him for specific maps. 

He tends to excel on the big maps where his trait can split push while he assists with team fights. Never underestimate the power of dunking with black pool up.

IMO, he should take the place of a mage on the team. 

[xevex 41]

On 3/21/2018 at 1:02 PM, Oxygen said:

Medivh: His rework made him more accessible to low- and mid-level players while making him less excessively annoying in the hands of Medivh one tricks. Arcane Explosion may be busted, however, and probably single-handedly carries his win rate its currently reasonable level by providing him with huge potential burst damage and helping with waveclearing.

It may be busted but i dont think that is what carries his winrate. There was only one choice to make before rework to deal dmg with Medivh which was Masters Touch. Now becoming baseline quest. The lvl 7 tier gives a few options that buffs hes dmg even more and on top of that there is another upgrade to his dmg on lvl 16 which is Arcane Charge. 

I think it has to do with the fact that whenever you pick a second support you always sacrificing a place where an assassin would be with a lot of dmg but now Medivh can deal a lot of dmg himself making him much less of a setback then he was before. 

There is also Raven Familiar which can be abused to blow up someone similary as with Arcane Explosion. 

Imo, right now, Force of Magic is even more busted thenArcane Explosion, combined with Arcane Charge you get some really busted burst dmg on a 1s cd. 
Some math:
 Arcane Rift baseline: 170 + 75 flat dmg 

Arcane Rift + Force of Magic 1 stack: 204 + 90 flat dmg

Arcane Rift + Force of Magic 2 stacks: 238 + 105 flat dmg 

Arcane Rift + Force of Magic 2 stacks + Arcane Charge: 273,7 + 120,75 flat dmg 

Yeah thats pretty much a Storm Bow on a 1s cooldown and able to hit multiple enemies. With buffed Force of Magic duration im sure people will soon discover how busted the talent is.

So he has now multiple dmg options on 3 tiers which makes him much more viable in teamfights. 

Also Winds of Celerity at lvl 1 without the need to sacrifice another great talent is also a good reason why he is much better of then before. 

He may be more accesible but right now hes even harder to play then pre-rework.

Edited March 23, 2018 by xevex

[Oxygen 446]

23 hours ago, Peaches9 said:

I must say I'm surprised there's five specialists in Core. Nazeebo and Sylvanas I can understand, since they offer solid teamfight damage in addition to their specialist duties, but I can't say the same for Azmo and Zagara (Abathur I won't comment on since I find it hard to measure his impact on a game, and I think it varies wildly based on player skill). What builds or strategies put those two this high? Should they be all-out splitpushing, or balancing this with providing the team with supplementary dps?

They're strong splitpushers that can supplement reasonable damage as needed. I wouldn't run them in double tank/double healer compositions however, as you'll lack late game sustained damage.

[Peaches9 15]

1 hour ago, Oxygen said:

They're strong splitpushers that can supplement reasonable damage as needed. I wouldn't run them in double tank/double healer compositions however, as you'll lack late game sustained damage.

In a typical bruiser/offlaner + double assassin comp, should they replace the offlaner, or one of the DPS's (likely the mage as MrPumpson said)? 

[Oxygen 446]

18 minutes ago, Peaches9 said:

In a typical bruiser/offlaner + double assassin comp, should they replace the offlaner, or one of the DPS's (likely the mage as MrPumpson said)? 

Depends on the map. Azmodan isn't as good a solo laner as Zag either. I wouldn't run Az on 2-lane maps. I'd rather replace an assassin, though I'd even rather not run either at all in such a comp for the reason I underlined earlier.

[ShadowerDerek 69]

15 hours ago, xevex said:

It may be busted but i dont think that is what carries his winrate. There was only one choice to make before rework to deal dmg with Medivh which was Masters Touch. Now becoming baseline quest. The lvl 7 tier gives a few options that buffs hes dmg even more and on top of that there is another upgrade to his dmg on lvl 16 which is Arcane Charge. 

I think it has to do with the fact that whenever you pick a second support you always sacrificing a place where an assassin would be with a lot of dmg but now Medivh can deal a lot of dmg himself making him much less of a setback then he was before. 

There is also Raven Familiar which can be abused to blow up someone similary as with Arcane Explosion. 

Imo, right now, Force of Magic is even more busted thenArcane Explosion, combined with Arcane Charge you get some really busted burst dmg on a 1s cd. 
Some math:
 Arcane Rift baseline: 170 + 75 flat dmg 

Arcane Rift + Force of Magic 1 stack: 204 + 90 flat dmg

Arcane Rift + Force of Magic 2 stacks: 238 + 105 flat dmg 

Arcane Rift + Force of Magic 2 stacks + Arcane Charge: 273,7 + 120,75 flat dmg 

Yeah thats pretty much a Storm Bow on a 1s cooldown and able to hit multiple enemies. With buffed Force of Magic duration im sure people will soon discover how busted the talent is.

So he has now multiple dmg options on 3 tiers which makes him much more viable in teamfights. 

Also Winds of Celerity at lvl 1 without the need to sacrifice another great talent is also a good reason why he is much better of then before. 

He may be more accesible but right now hes even harder to play then pre-rework.

A 1s Storm Bow is nowhere near a Pyroblast out of nowhere.

Edited March 24, 2018 by ShadowerDerek

[ShadowerDerek 69]

8 hours ago, Oxygen said:

They're strong splitpushers that can supplement reasonable damage as needed. I wouldn't run them in double tank/double healer compositions however, as you'll lack late game sustained damage.

Double support in 2018 LUL 

[ShadowerDerek 69]

On 2018年3月23日 at 3:04 AM, Peaches9 said:

I must say I'm surprised there's five specialists in Core. Nazeebo and Sylvanas I can understand, since they offer solid teamfight damage in addition to their specialist duties, but I can't say the same for Azmo and Zagara (Abathur I won't comment on since I find it hard to measure his impact on a game, and I think it varies wildly based on player skill). What builds or strategies put those two this high? Should they be all-out splitpushing, or balancing this with providing the team with supplementary dps?

All of them have their places in the current meta, and Core Tier definitely fits them.

Sylvanas can put out some strong sustain aoe damage with Shadow Dagger, while Withering Arrow is a quite impactful heroic because of the silence and burst damage. But her main strength is, she can snowball a small advantage (like a kill or an objective) into a really strong 4-man push, which makes her really powerful in some maps like Braxis Holdout.

I rarely rate Nazeebo as a specialist tbh. He's more like a sustain aoe damage mage with a big power spike at lv 20. His waveclear and sustain poison damage can be valuable usually. Also, he says 'brrrrrrra' and 'ayeeeeee', which makes him popular in HL.

Abathur is very powerful in the right hand. He can turn a melee warrior/assassin into a serious threat. Besides, Ultimate Evolution is, in my opinion, one of the best heroic in the game.

Zagara is undeniably one of the best solo laner in the game. Both of her heroics are very impactful: Nydus Network makes her into a global split-pusher with strong sustain and jungling; Devouring Maw is essentially Void Prison, which can set up some powerful combo or can split the enemy team.

Azmodan is probably the weakest out of these 5 heroes, but he still has his place. His split-push can be really strong and hard to notice if talented, especially with Force Recruitment at lv 20. Q build can output some serious damage with Black Pool, while E build can heavy punish teams without reliable interrupts.

[MurkyFelix 51]

7 hours ago, ShadowerDerek said:

I rarely rate Nazeebo as a specialist tbh. He's more like a sustain aoe damage mage with a big power spike at lv 20. His waveclear and sustain poison damage can be valuable usually. Also, he says 'brrrrrrra' and 'ayeeeeee', which makes him popular in HL.

The only reason to run him (I too has video):

 

[xevex 41]

21 hours ago, ShadowerDerek said:

A 1s Storm Bow is nowhere near a Pyroblast out of nowhere.

Pyroblast out of nowhere? You have 1.5s to get out of the 3.5 range. Not to mention if you dont deal any dmg to the protected targets it deals only 90 dmg per target. You may get Pyroblast numbers if the protected targets get hit by some AoE burst dmg. 
It actually has a quite easy counterplay. 

[ShadowerDerek 69]

2 hours ago, xevex said:

Pyroblast out of nowhere? You have 1.5s to get out of the 3.5 range. Not to mention if you dont deal any dmg to the protected targets it deals only 90 dmg per target. You may get Pyroblast numbers if the protected targets get hit by some AoE burst dmg. 
It actually has a quite easy counterplay. 

Try getting out of them when you get jumped by their frontliners. And if your teammate is jumped on, everyone's natural reaction is just throw everything they have to those divers threatning your teammate.

[xevex 41]

5 hours ago, ShadowerDerek said:

Try getting out of them when you get jumped by their frontliners. And if your teammate is jumped on, everyone's natural reaction is just throw everything they have to those divers threatning your teammate.

Helping with the kill. Very nice. I mean i admit it might be overtuned. But still in that situation tank should be the one who peels. It should be in everyones interest knowing talents that are dangerous and watching out for them. 
The "because it feels natural to waste dmg on protected heroes" doesnt really fly lol. 

[ShadowerDerek 69]

2 hours ago, xevex said:

Helping with the kill. Very nice. I mean i admit it might be overtuned. But still in that situation tank should be the one who peels. It should be in everyones interest knowing talents that are dangerous and watching out for them. 
The "because it feels natural to waste dmg on protected heroes" doesnt really fly lol. 

In most situations, the choices are between dealing damage to those protected (or going to be protected), or dealing no damage at all. 

The main issue is that it is very easy to execute, while very hard to counter it. And its cd is way too low for that kind of damage output. Even tanks can't tank that insane amount of burst damage.

Edited March 25, 2018 by ShadowerDerek

[ShadowerDerek 69]

Also, I think there're some strong arguments to put Stukov into Prime Tier right now.

- strong sustain and burst heal

- HUGE playmaking potential for a support

- great zoning and area control

- has access to hard CC

His priority in draft is starting to catch up on Malfurion. He and Malfurion are currently the most common and versatile supports right now.

[Oxygen 446]

On 24/03/2018 at 1:09 AM, ShadowerDerek said:

Also, he says 'brrrrrrra' and 'ayeeeeee', which makes him popular in HL.

That's it

9 hours ago, ShadowerDerek said:

Also, I think there're some strong arguments to put Stukov into Prime Tier right now.

- strong sustain and burst heal

- HUGE playmaking potential for a support

- great zoning and area control

- has access to hard CC

His priority in draft is starting to catch up on Malfurion. He and Malfurion are currently the most common and versatile supports right now.

I rate Stukov #2 or 3 as well.

[Valhalen 1,484]

On 3/24/2018 at 2:09 AM, ShadowerDerek said:

Also, he says 'brrrrrrra' and 'ayeeeeee', which makes him popular in HL.

Don't forget about the classic "Kurukutah". After all, he gas PhD in PvP.

[ShadowerDerek 69]

8 hours ago, Oxygen said:

I rate Stukov #2 or 3 as well.

I don't see any support besides Malfurion that can possibly compete against Stukov currently in terms of popularity and versatility. The closest one is probably Uther, but still, not even close.

[ArchangelOfHope 0]

How come Auriel has been moved down with no assessment?

[Oxygen 446]

On 26/03/2018 at 5:57 AM, ArchangelOfHope said:

How come Auriel has been moved down with no assessment?

She's hopeless.

[50m8r4 11]

3 minutes ago, Oxygen said:

She's hopeless.

Wait. There isn't always hope?

[Valhalen 1,484]

51 minutes ago, Oxygen said:

She's hopeless.

 

48 minutes ago, 50m8r4 said:

Wait. There isn't always hope?

 

On 3/26/2018 at 6:57 AM, ArchangelOfHope said:

How come Auriel has been moved down with no assessment?

The problem with Auriel is that there are other Supports that can outperform her healing burst, such as Stukov and Alexstrasza, as they're not barred by resource generation from Bestow Hope. So, when Oxygen said "She's hopeless", is exact that; she currently finds herself in a hard spot to consistently generate Hope at a regular basis.

Blizzard just tried to remedy this by increasing her Hope generation, but I still feel they should revisit Auriel at some point and soft-rework her. Maybe making Increasing Clarity and Empathic Link baseline would be a start.

[ShadowerDerek 69]

9 hours ago, Valhalen said:

 

 

The problem with Auriel is that there are other Supports that can outperform her healing burst, such as Stukov and Alexstrasza, as they're not barred by resource generation from Bestow Hope. So, when Oxygen said "She's hopeless", is exact that; she currently finds herself in a hard spot to consistently generate Hope at a regular basis.

Blizzard just tried to remedy this by increasing her Hope generation, but I still feel they should revisit Auriel at some point and soft-rework her. Maybe making Increasing Clarity and Empathic Link baseline would be a start.

I think his question is why Auriel has been moved from Viable Tier to Niche Tier without a red arrow beside her name and a proper assessment, but not asking the reason behind.

I can completely understand why Auriel is considered weak because she heavily relies on her team to be effective, though I personally do think she's viable. If she has a good assassin, she's much better than most supports. Strong burst AND aoe heal, peel, extremely strong burst protection with Crystal Aegis, decent waveclear, decent pick potential; if you somehow know that one of your assassins is reliable and strong, drafting Auriel is conpletely fine, as you have tools to protect your energy source.

[Valhalen 1,484]

10 hours ago, ShadowerDerek said:

I think his question is why Auriel has been moved from Viable Tier to Niche Tier without a red arrow beside her name and a proper assessment, but not asking the reason behind.

I can completely understand why Auriel is considered weak because she heavily relies on her team to be effective, though I personally do think she's viable. If she has a good assassin, she's much better than most supports. Strong burst AND aoe heal, peel, extremely strong burst protection with Crystal Aegis, decent waveclear, decent pick potential; if you somehow know that one of your assassins is reliable and strong, drafting Auriel is conpletely fine, as you have tools to protect your energy source.

Oh, I guess I didn't understand his question, then.

Yes, I definitely agree with you. Auriel is one of my mains, and I really love her kit. In fact, I tested her yesterday with Fenix as the Bestowed, and BOI, he grants some sweet Energy in no time.

[ArusVicious 156]

I figured since Fenix has come out that we could start predicting where he belongs on this tier list. I haven’t played him yet (only on PTR) but for those of you who have, what do you think about him? What tier do you think he belongs in?

Looking at his current win-rates, I'd assume he is a tad bit overtuned, even after his on-release nerfs.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Maxkitty