[Frost] Akraen's Comprehensive Guide to 5.4 Frost PvE (Advanced)

[Hershie 0]

Are we changing anything with the way our stat priority goes? I was doing haste to 14,242 and then rest mastery. 

[NickSeng 0]

Are we changing anything with the way our stat priority goes? I was doing haste to 14,242 and then rest mastery. 

You could try to reach 15832 or 18960 breakpoint, but it will shift your damage to your bombs. If you're not a fan of snapshotting, you could be better of staying where you are. 

[Nytemare 2]

Manage to get some lfr gear got 3 t pieces (chest, hands, shoulders), got KTT - with bib I am able to hit 12684 (well tech can hit 12750) after reforge, however doing this I give up 120 int socket bonus on belt, shoulder, and gloves, and 60 int bonus on weapon from general

 

So do I go for the breakpoint or stick to 9522 one and keep the socket bonus?

[Oltier 471]

Manage to get some lfr gear got 3 t pieces (chest, hands, shoulders), got KTT - with bib I am able to hit 12684 (well tech can hit 12750) after reforge, however doing this I give up 120 int socket bonus on belt, shoulder, and gloves, and 60 int bonus on weapon from general

 

So do I go for the breakpoint or stick to 9522 one and keep the socket bonus?

Stick to 9522. Too much sacrifice for very small gain.

[Zildijana 3]

With all the item upgrades launched today, it should not be a problem hitting higher haste caps for everyone =)

[Oltier 471]

With all the item upgrades launched today, it should not be a problem hitting higher haste caps for everyone =)

Of course not. :) But his question was item-specific.

 

Generally, of course reach it. But in his case it's too much sacrifice.

[Nytemare 2]

Does putting AMR crit to 25% and 25% + 1.0 really matter? So far I have not noticed anything changes doing so

Edited May 21, 2014 by Nytemare

[Architech 0]

So, It recently came to my attention that at 105% mastery – an interesting thing could happen to the frost rotation, and that is you get to mostly ignore FoF proc ice lances –

 

Now while this is interesting – (And some quick runs of AMR going for the 14.5k ish cap says we might get to 105% at high gear levels) - My understanding of the consensus gearing paradigm is still haste centric.

 

The “but” –

 

I happen to make rotational mistakes when I play this game, munched procs, Ice lances outside of FoF, low Dot uptime.  But, in general I believe I can keep to first tenant of caster DPS – always be casting.  So my question is along the lines how much DPS do I lose by making mistakes – my question is “How many non-FOF ice lances do I have to cast for it to be better to gear to 105% master and never have to cast an icelance”

 

So I put the thought out there, and I am asking help to answer the question – but here is my analysis that I think says it might be worth looking into:

 

I think it would be interesting took look at WoW rotations in a similar manner to how many people look at baseball with advanced stats. In baseball, we have WAR – or wins over a replacement player, a stat to evaluate how “good” a player actually is. So as in wow, I would be interested in looking at Damage over replacement spell.

 

For frost, FrB+icicle is the “average spell”  and every other spell in our rotation is cast because its more damage then FrB.

 

So quick DPET from Lhivera’s calculator (I may be entering mastery incorrectly)

Crit:26.78

Haste: 41.74

Mastery: 80

 

Icelance w/ FOF : 236273

Icelance w/o FoF: 29955

FrB w/ Icicle: 217954

 

So my DOR (DPET over replacement) for

 

Icelance w/ FOF is 18319

icelance w/o FoF is -187999

 

I pulled a random heroic jug kill for an example and there were 38 FoF procs

 

For 38 casts, this is a total of  696122 DOR.

 

So my conclusion if I accidentally cast 4 non FoF icelances when trying to use FoF Icelance – I may have been better to have just cast FrB instead and not accidentally casting any FoF-less ice lances.

 

This conclusion was close enough for me to post, as most pulls I will cast at least 4 mistake ice lances (due to lag / playing at high haste / being bad)

 

And I guess an interesting and much harder to answer follow up question is "how bad do I have keeping bombs up etc, to make gearing for mastery better then haste etc."

Edited May 21, 2014 by Architech

[durrtygoodz 60]

Your post confuses me to the point where I honestly can't tell if you're trolling. From what I'm getting, you want to know what stat to get if you're terrible at the game? Well no stat is going to increase your dps if you make rookie errors like casting IL with no proc, or missing brain freeze, or losing bomb uptime. Also, 14242 + 105% mastery is only achievable at like 580+ ilvl now. And I hate to be cruel but if you play as badly as you describe I'll be really suprised if you can get to that ilvl.

[Akraen 230]

Full mastery build has much more tolerance for failure than haste. If failure is your goal :P

[Architech 0]

Your post confuses me to the point where I honestly can't tell if you're trolling. From what I'm getting, you want to know what stat to get if you're terrible at the game? Well no stat is going to increase your dps if you make rookie errors like casting IL with no proc, or missing brain freeze, or losing bomb uptime. Also, 14242 + 105% mastery is only achievable at like 580+ ilvl now. And I hate to be cruel but if you play as badly as you describe I'll be really suprised if you can get to that ilvl.

 

 

To address the tone of the reply, I always interested in any advice on how I could improve my play (but I have been fire for a little bit of time now)

 

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-js41t54l4le3gqph/

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/273136/5/#boss=1595

 

The point I am making is - that most people do not play perfectly, in fact most people make several mistakes per pull

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VrCq6JmP42YyQbRc#fight=26&type=auras&source=23  - 42 icelances on 40 procs

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JPYbgK2NLV6RTr93#fight=1&type=casts&source=25  - 44 icelances on 42 procs

 

And granted - it very well those two casts of non FoF per fight, they could have been on purpose - But they very well could have also been mistakes. 

 

The point I am making is @ a rate of 2 mistakes per pull, casting Ice lance seems fine - but if some one less experienced with the spec raises the rate of mistakes to 4 mistakes per pull - there is a good chance they would be better off never casting ice lance if that resulted in zero mistakes per pull. And, if you are like me, you make many mistakes when playing close to haste cap.

[durrtygoodz 60]

You should probably look at more than 1 log if you wanna critique my play. There's 2 things that can cause FoF proc waste on Malk:

 

- During AT if you're overloaded with procs and there's not enough time to use everything, your procs are overwritten when AT ends

- Freezng 2 adds for a proc when you already have 1 proc if they're about to die is better than getting nothing from them at all

 

What I originally says still stands though. You cannot reach the point of not casting ice lance until 580+ and regardless of this, if someone is playing badly, their stats just don't matter.

[Akraen 230]

Really gotta reinforce dgoodz here, he's correct.

[Zenith 0]

Hey I have a 553 FCoR and a 528 KTT. Usually the multistrike is 3-4% of my DPS. Is the extra in from the FCoR proc really worth it? I know the guide says it would be better, but I was wondering if you had any (simple) math to justify FCoR for 12 ilvl differences.

[Sikkz 27]

Hey I have a 553 FCoR and a 528 KTT. Usually the multistrike is 3-4% of my DPS. Is the extra in from the FCoR proc really worth it? I know the guide says it would be better, but I was wondering if you had any (simple) math to justify FCoR for 12 ilvl differences.

 

I remember investigating this, because I had the same issue when I was at your item level.  I remember finding a thread that explained it pretty well, and put my skepticism about using the FCoR to rest.  I will try and find it and send it to you via IV message.

 

However, if you want the quick answer, use the FCoR.  Obviously aim to replace it ASAP with a KTT/BBoY of similar item level.  This trinket is the devil, and I feel your pain having to make the best of it until an upgrade is available.  

Edited June 5, 2014 by Scottylol

[Ilmatar 0]

Hello fellow Mages,

 

I can't seem to find an up to date thread for my question, so forgive me for asking it here - off Topic:

 

Which is the best DPS spec for mages on itemlevels beyond 550?

As this thread indicates, there are top players on Frost, but I see many Arcane mages in HC raid videos.

 

So which spec, if I want to squeeze the last DPS out of my mana?

-----

http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/blackrock/ilmatar/simple

[Oltier 471]

Hello fellow Mages,

 

I can't seem to find an up to date thread for my question, so forgive me for asking it here - off Topic:

 

Which is the best DPS spec for mages on itemlevels beyond 550?

As this thread indicates, there are top players on Frost, but I see many Arcane mages in HC raid videos.

 

So which spec, if I want to squeeze the last DPS out of my mana?

-----

http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/blackrock/ilmatar/simple

Under normal circumstances they perform on the same level (assuming equal player skill, RNG and boss fight).

You will get the best value, if you play the spec that you are most familiar with and can play on the highest level without almost any mistakes. :)

[Ilmatar 0]

Under normal circumstances they perform on the same level (assuming equal player skill, RNG and boss fight).

You will get the best value, if you play the spec that you are most familiar with and can play on the highest level without almost any mistakes.

Thank you for your quick answer! And nice to hear, I don't have to change my spec yet - we will see, what WoD brings us.

Currently I am quite comfortable with my DPS Output, and eagerly optimizing my Boss-knowledge and player skill.

But there are allways other players out there in raids, advising us: "why are you not playing [random-spec]? It is much better than [your-spec]!"  ;-)

[Ceraius 34]

Nnnnoooo! My favorite thread from the part of forums I don't have a character for won't be updated anymore!

[Oltier 471]

Thank you for your quick answer! And nice to hear, I don't have to change my spec yet - we will see, what WoD brings us.

Currently I am quite comfortable with my DPS Output, and eagerly optimizing my Boss-knowledge and player skill.

But there are allways other players out there in raids, advising us: "why are you not playing [random-spec]? It is much better than [your-spec]!"  ;-)

Those people are usually players who has never played mage before. OR, they are min/maxers and they consider the extra ~2% dps gain (on spreadsheets) for fire worthy... However, if you play frost more comfortably than fire... Well, you will get better numbers with frost, than fire eventhough on paper fire would be better.

 

Nnnnoooo! My favorite thread from the part of forums I don't have a character for won't be updated anymore!

I'll be trying to bring the news over here after my exams, don't worry :)

[Liquidsteel 279]

Unless I'm being an idiot, I can't find the Search feature on this forum.

 

As such I have a rather simple question, regarding Icicles.

 

I'm aware that they are created at a percentage of the spell that triggered them, but how does this interact with trinkets?

 

If I generate 5 icicles on pull, and then PBI procs and I cast Ice Lance, does this mean those 5 icicles will be buffed by the trinket proc, or will they retain the power of when they were created?

 

Similarly, if I store 5 icicles before PBI falls off and then cast Ice Lance, will those 5 icicles retain the snapshot of the trinket?

 

TL;DR - Do icicles snapshot upon creation or when they are launched?

[Berlinia 168]

Hey Liquidsteel

They are a percentage of the spells that create them. So they should snapshot at the time of creation.

Cheers

[Liquidsteel 279]

Cool thanks.

[Berlinia 168]

Due to 6.0 being on the Horizon, and the fact that Frost has proven different values to be better, I unstickied this rather popular thread that got me into theorycrafting. 
Will miss these graphs man!
Cheers

[Brianator 0]

Hi there..

Brilliant site and great guide..

 

Just got back to Wow again about 6 weeks ago.. Havnt played since start Cataclysm, so been missing it quite a bit :) 

Reaching a decent gearlevel now so I want to optimize my performance. Luckily enough, people like you make it super easy for everyone to make the right decisions in regards to gear and stats, thank you for that.

 

Of course performance is something different entirely Which program did you use to make the Malkorok Log you showed earlier in these comments? Cant wait to start kicking myself in the behind, when i realize how inefficient i actually am with my bombs and procs

 

Thanks in advance

Brian

 

 

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/emerald-dream/Brianator/advanced

Edited October 11, 2014 by Brianator